Regarding the translation of parthenos? . . .which are the facts given, in the matter for the cause of action.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2278957-post761.html
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What Day was Jesus Crucified?
- Thread starter fallingblood
- Start date
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2278957-post761.html
And if they die on an annual Sabbath, such as Feast of Trumpets (Lev 23:3-5)?
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Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
I'm not 100% sure... but I believe it's the same. I'm 90% sure there are no funerals on any day that is a holy convocation (Rosh Hashana, Pesach, Yom Kippur, Sukkot, etc...)
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
Is nothing allowed to be done to the body if one dies on Feast of Trumpets?
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
No. It would have to wait until the holiday is over.
You're loading that one up with more than it can carry.
Jesus did not say that the sign of Jonah was the ONLY sign that he is the Son of God.
He said his resurrection was the only sign he would give to a wicked and adulterous generation (Mt 12:39).
They didn't believe the signs they already had of his miracles, and demanded another sign.
So he said the sign he would give them would be greater than all his other miraculous signs--one they could not refuse to believe. . .he would rise from the dead.
However, the NT reports their unbelief of even that sign (Mt 28:11-15, 2-4).
But the NT also reports three other signs.
For your convenience I will present the Scriptures involved, which will make this a little lengthy, for the sake of thoroughness.
(1) Jesus gave the sign of "the prophet who was to come" found in Deut 18:17-19.
(See Jn 6:14, 7:40; Ac 3:22-23, 7:37)
Jn 12:49-50 -- "For I do not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. . .
So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."
Deut 18:17-19 -- The LORD said to me: "What they say is good. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers;
I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.
If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account."
(2) Jesus gave the sign of fulfilling Isaiah's Messianic prophecies in Isaiah 29:18-21, 35:5-6, 61:1.
Lk 4:17-22 -- The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,
to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor." (Isaiah 61:1-2a)
Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, and he began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."
All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips.
Lk 7:18-23 -- John's disciples told him all about these things. Calling two of them, he sent them to the Lord to ask, "Are you the one who was to come (Deut 18:17-19), or should we expect someone else?"
When the men came to Jesus, they said, "John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, 'Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?' "
At that very time Jesus cured many who had diseases, sicknesses and evil spirits, and gave sight to many who were blind. So he replied to the messengers,
"Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive their sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear,
the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor. Blessed is the man who does not fall away on account of me." See Isaiah 29:8-21, 35:5-6, 61:1.
Jesus answered John's question by pointing to his fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies of Isaiah.
(3) The apostles Peter and Paul gave the sign of fulfilling David's Messianic prophecy of the resurrection in Psalm 16:8-11.
(See Peter's and Paul's addresses in Ac 2:27 and 13:32-41, respectively.)
". . .my body will rest secure, because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will your Faithful One see decay. . .you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand." (Psalm 16:10-11)
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Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
Any new timelines? any more questions?
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
No, no, no. Bikurim, or First Fruits were brought on the 6th of Sivan - fifty days from the second day of Passover.
In Hebrew, we call that day Shavu'ot, which also celebrates the day that God gave the Torah to the Jews around Mount Sinai.
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
I recognize your interest in developing a useful time line, so that your belief has something that would allow it to be real. However... A lot of what you are saying makes no sense.
I told you that Passover could START Wednesday night, not start Tuesday to have the day be on Wednesday.
You're still not getting there.
I understand Jesus did a lot of making stuff up, too. (Maybe, at a different time, we'll discuss his argument involving when his disciples picked grain in a field on Shabbat. His logic was as bad then as yours was here. Don't do that.)
Your argument doesn't work.
Further... When a death takes place in Jerusalem, no care is taken about who shows up in time for anything (unless mourners can be informed and delivered within a few hours). The body is removed from the walled city, and it is buried within hours.
If people need to come to mourn from distant locations, I see people holding over the burial for a day. But not when a death happens in Jerusalem. Jews are seriously intense about that, because of the holiness of Jerusalem.
Your time line would completely disregard this fact of Jewish custom, if not law.
Okay.
This is patented nonsense. That would require Jesus being on the cross for over a month and a half.
It's possible, but you still have one problem.
I told you that Passover could START Wednesday night, not start Tuesday to have the day be on Wednesday.
You're still not getting there.
Well... That's true, but not necessarily because Luke says so.
Again, that is true.
You are making up logic that doesn't work for Jewish law.
I understand Jesus did a lot of making stuff up, too. (Maybe, at a different time, we'll discuss his argument involving when his disciples picked grain in a field on Shabbat. His logic was as bad then as yours was here. Don't do that.)
That's a lame excuse. If a body needed to be buried, time would have to have been taken out of the busy day of Erev Pesach to bury the body.
Your argument doesn't work.
Further... When a death takes place in Jerusalem, no care is taken about who shows up in time for anything (unless mourners can be informed and delivered within a few hours). The body is removed from the walled city, and it is buried within hours.
If people need to come to mourn from distant locations, I see people holding over the burial for a day. But not when a death happens in Jerusalem. Jews are seriously intense about that, because of the holiness of Jerusalem.
Your time line would completely disregard this fact of Jewish custom, if not law.
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Harmonious
Well-Known Member
I don't know. It could have been a Monday, a Wednesday, or a Friday. Oddly enough, it could have been on Shabbat. But if it DID happen on Shabbat... That causes all kinds of other problems.
But yes - Shabbat could, indeed, be the day before Passover.
The Sanhedrin wouldn't have met on Shabbat, either...
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fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
I think it would be possible for the Romans to have kept a victim on the cross for a month and a half. It may be pushing it, but it definitely would get a point across.
But I do agree with the points you made.
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
I'm sure the Romans would have had no problem with keeping a victim on a cross for that long, either.
However, that puts a serious dent in the whole "this is supposed to be happening around Passover" concept.
Wasn't it the Feast of Weeks that was Sivan 6, which celebrates the giving of the law on Mt. Sinai, and the first fruits of the wheat harvest (Ex 34:22, Lev 23:15-17)
in the summer.
Wasn't First Fruits of the barley harvest on Abib 16 in the spring?
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Not yet. . .still workin'.
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
Yup. One and the same.
No - the first fruits were brought on Shavu'ot, the feast of weeks.
However, we start counting the days of the Omer on the 16th of Nissan.
See my questions on the dates you gave of the feasts:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2280076-post794.html
When a Saturday Sabbath falls during the feast of Unleavened Bread, is there a Day of Preparation for the Saturday Sabbath?
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
This is the part that still isn't happening.
Nissan 16 is just the second day of Passover, and the first of the Counting of the Omer.
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
Harmonious just explained that the "annual Sabbath of Firstfruits" is The Festival of Weeks, which happens in the summer.
And if Wednesday night begins the 15th, then Sunday morning would still be the 18th.