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What do Christians really think about the Qur'an

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Dear Pegg....There are currently 5-6 million people who believe, on the basis of their own independent investigation, that on May 23, 1844 the Second Coming was declared and subsequently fulfilled.

The clear alignments of the prophetic dates ought not be dismissed as mere coincidence...the claim made in that year is worthy of investigation...even if, as with the claim laid by Jesus, it does not match local expectation;)

"On May 23, 1844, the Bab ("gate" in Arabic) announced that He was the bearer of a long-promised Divine Revelation destined to transform the spiritual life of the human race.
His role, He said, was to be the portal through which the universally anticipated Revelation of God would appear in the form of another Messenger. This Messenger from God would be far greater: He would usher in the age of peace and justice promised in Islam, Judaism, Christianity and all the other world religions.
The Bab referred to the Messenger as "Him Whom God shall make manifest" and said, "No words of Mine can adequately describe Him nor. . . do justice to His Cause."
That Messenger was Baha'u'llah."

Baha

Báb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I invite you to investigate with all the open minded vigour and scrutiny of the twelve disciples.

"What hath God wrought" Samuel F. B. Morse, May 24, 1844
All the best.

unfortunately, i dont subscribe to the idea that there will be another prophet to come after Jesus. Bahais accept Jesus but believe that he would be succeeded by another prophet in the same way that Islam teaches. But such a succession of prophets is contrary to what is written in the bible at Hebrews 7:24, 25:

“He (Christ) because of continuing alive forever has his priesthood without any successors. Consequently he is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them.”
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Can you show me that the priesthood changed?
1 Peter2:4-9 Peter speaking to annointed christians: 5 YOU yourselves also as living stones are being built up a spiritual house for the purpose of a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. ...9 But YOU are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that YOU should declare abroad the excellencies” of the one that called YOU out of darkness into his wonderful light"

We don't even know who wrote Hebrews. Again, it could have been a "false prophet."
the apostles of Christ would never have allowed the writing of a false prophet to be circulated among the new christian congregation.

Also, the Law did not have to be administered to by Priests. If that was true, there is no way that Jews could now follow that law. The fact that they still follow that law shows that you're wrong.
Only the priests could offer sacrifices. Approach to God was through the priesthood, therefore, no priests, no sacrifices and no way to make atonement for ones sins.
Thats why Jesus told the Jews that the law made them slaves to sin “Most truly I say to you, Every doer of sin is a slave of sin. Moreover, the slave does not remain in the household forever; the son remains forever. Therefore if the Son sets you free, you will be actually free.”John 8:31-36 And Paul told Christians that if they held onto the mosaic law code and its requirements, they would remain slaves to it at Galatians 5:1"For such freedom Christ set us free. Therefore stand fast, and do not let yourselves be confined again in a yoke of slavery. 2 See! I, Paul, am telling YOU that if YOU become circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to YOU. 3 Moreover, I bear witness again to every man getting circumcised that he is under obligation to perform the whole Law. You see, when the priesthood was there, the jews had a means of having their sins forgiven and a thus a righteous standing before God. But justlook back through the history of Isreal....when the priests became corrupt God left the entire nation...when the priests were faithful, God kept the nation safe.
That is just ignorant. Paul may have understood the law, but Jews can understand the law just as well as he can. And probably better now since there are more sources on the subject.
No because Paul was able to experience the Mosaic law in its full form when the priests were administering it.
The jews today do not practice the law in its full form because they do not have a priesthood to administer the sacrificial system. They have a completely different religion to what jews of the 1st century practiced.

That is ridiculous. You are just showing you have no idea what the Law is about. It was not designed to lead the Jews to the Messiah. That doesn't even make sense. Paul, whatever he was, simply made things up.
Philipians 3:4-5 If any other man thinks he has grounds for confidence in the flesh, I the more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, out of the family stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew [born] from Hebrews; as respects law, a Pharisee
Acts 26:4-5 “Indeed, as to the manner of life from youth up that I led from [the] beginning among my nation and in Jerusalem, all the Jews 5 that have been previously acquainted with me from the first know, if they but wish to bear witness, that according to the strictest sect of our form of worship I lived a Pharisee"

More so, how does the Kosher laws lead Jews to the Messiah? It simply makes no logical sense.
The Isrealites had to be clean physically, mentally and spiritually... the Kosher laws helped to keep them physically clean. it is well known that certain foods contain high concentrations of toxins...pig meat is difficult for our digestive system to process and therefore can make a person unhealthy.

The worship of God was to be carried out in a clean and holy way. That is the 'spirit' behind that kosher laws....cleanliness is next to Godliness.
The Kingdom of God was not in heaven, it was on Earth. So your logic fails, as if the Kingdom is suppose to be on Earth (which was the understanding about the Kingdom of God) then obviously, God would not have permitted the Temple and priesthood to be destroyed. Well at least not for that reason.
you dont think that just maybe, the reason he allowed the temple to be destroyed was because he had grander plans?
Isaiah 66:1 ‘The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where, then, is the house that you people can build for me, and where, then, is the place as a resting-place for me?’”
 
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fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
1 Peter2:4-9 Peter speaking to annointed christians:
Nope, Peter never wrote this epistle. It is written by an unknown author, definitely not Peter. It doesn't come from Jesus or his disciples. It comes from someone who is lying about who they are. I see very little credibility in the account then. At best, it shows what Christians later believed and taught, and really, I'm not interested in that. Because Christians later believed many different things.
the apostles of Christ would never have allowed the writing of a false prophet to be circulated among the new christian congregation.
But Hebrews was, and we have no idea who that was written about. More than half of the Epistles of Paul are by people who are lying and claiming to be him (as in, they are not written by Paul, but people claiming to be Paul). The other Epistles were also written by people lying about who they were.

More so, we know from early texts, many of these texts were later changed by scribes for theological purposes. Some of these changes were by what we now call heretics. So there is more than enough reason to believe that the apostles allowed possible writing of false prophets, or simply had no control over the matter.
Only the priests could offer sacrifices. Approach to God was through the priesthood, therefore, no priests, no sacrifices and no way to make atonement for ones sins.
look back through the history of Isreal....when the priests became corrupt God left the entire nation...when the priests were faithful, God kept the nation safe.
One could pray to God whenever. The Temple was for the sacrifices, but it was not the only way to approach God. If that was true, the vast majority of Jews would never have contact with God, and Jews living today would be completely separated from God. However, the fact is just the opposite.

More so, one could atone for sins in other ways than just animal sacrifice. Repentance was a major factor here, as well as prayer. So even without the priesthood, there was ways to atone for one sins.

Also, it wasn't said that just when priests became corrupt that God left the nation. It was when the people, in general, became corrupt.
No because Paul was able to experience the Mosaic law in its full form when the priests were administering it.
The jews today do not practice the law in its full form because they do not have a priesthood to administer the sacrificial system. They have a completely different religion to what jews of the 1st century practiced.
Not at all. Paul changed the law to fit himself. He did many things that was against the law. And he stated ideas about the law that simply were not supported. Really, Paul may have had a good understanding of the law, but he twisted it greatly in his writings and preachings.

As for Judaism during this time and the first century, it is not completely different. There are some changes. However, the law did not revolve around the priests. That was an extremely small aspect of the law. You are putting to much weight on the priesthood. You need to inform yourself about Judaism, and not just continue with this biased view point.

Philipians 3:4-5 If any other man thinks he has grounds for confidence in the flesh, I the more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, out of the family stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew [born] from Hebrews; as respects law, a Pharisee
Acts 26:4-5 “Indeed, as to the manner of life from youth up that I led from [the] beginning among my nation and in Jerusalem, all the Jews 5 that have been previously acquainted with me from the first know, if they but wish to bear witness, that according to the strictest sect of our form of worship I lived a Pharisee"
What's your point here? You are not defending the idea that you don't know anything about the law. The only thing you are doing is showing that Paul was extremely arrogant.

And even then, it is not showing that Paul knew the law more than anyone else. At most, it shows that he claimed that. But if one reads the verses, he never states such an idea. All he is saying is that he was a devout Jew.
The Isrealites had to be clean physically, mentally and spiritually... the Kosher laws helped to keep them physically clean. it is well known that certain foods contain high concentrations of toxins...pig meat is difficult for our digestive system to process and therefore can make a person unhealthy.

The worship of God was to be carried out in a clean and holy way. That is the 'spirit' behind that kosher laws....cleanliness is next to Godliness.
Doesn't answer the question. It never addresses how the Kosher laws lead Jews to the Messiah. It doesn't even in a round about way address the question. I won't address anything else there.
you dont think that just maybe, the reason he allowed the temple to be destroyed was because he had grander plans?
Isaiah 66:1 ‘The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where, then, is the house that you people can build for me, and where, then, is the place as a resting-place for me?’”
Again, not addressing what I stated. The Kingdom of God that Jesus was preaching about was a kingdom that would be right here on Earth, and would replace the earthly kingdom.


So lets make a quick some of what we have here:
- One, there is no credible evidence that Jesus is the Messiah. Instead, he failed to fulfill Messianic prophecy.
-Second, there is no real reason to think of a new covenant that replaced the old. First, Jesus states the opposite, as in, his followers had to follow the laws, to the letter. He was very clear that the law was not suppose to be abolished, not even the smallest of the laws. Second, Jesus's disciples seem completely unaware that a new covenant has been enacted.
-Third, you are lacking an understanding of what Jewish laws are, and are meant to be. They are kept by Jews out of Love for God. They are not an obligation. More so, sacrifice was not the only way to salvation.
-Fourth, as with Jewish law, you show a lack of understanding of Islamic law, or even what the Quran teaches.
-Fifth, that lack of understanding has been shown by you saying that Muslims can not practice Islam in non-Arabic countries. However, since the vast majority of Muslims do not live in Arabic countries, such a statement is patently false.
-Sixth, and final, the OT has to be considered in Christianity. Thus, any comment about a divine justice system applies to both the Quran and the Bible.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Nope, Peter never wrote this epistle. It is written by an unknown author, definitely not Peter. It doesn't come from Jesus or his disciples.... The other Epistles were also written by people lying about who they were.
highly unlikely. You might as well say the same for every piece of historical writing in the history of mankind...including the hebrew scriptures.
More so, we know from early texts, many of these texts were later changed by scribes for theological purposes. Some of these changes were by what we now call heretics.
this argument falls flat in the face of the many thousands of old manuscripts available, any and all changes have been identified and our modern bibles do not include such changes.

One could pray to God whenever. The Temple was for the sacrifices, but it was not the only way to approach God.
if you were a jew living under the mosaic law then sacrifices and the priesthood were the only way to approach God.
As I said, look at the history written in the hebrew scriptures for verification that approval was dependent upon the priests.

More so, one could atone for sins in other ways than just animal sacrifice. Repentance was a major factor here, as well as prayer. So even without the priesthood, there was ways to atone for one sins.
not if you were living under the Mosaic Law. That is what the mosaic law required... remember that you keep repeating that christians should be following the mosaic law... How do you follow a law that requires the sons of Aaron to be the mediating priests?
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
highly unlikely. You might as well say the same for every piece of historical writing in the history of mankind...including the hebrew scriptures.
Actually, this is a situation in which the general consensus of scholars agree.
this argument falls flat in the face of the many thousands of old manuscripts available, any and all changes have been identified and our modern bibles do not include such changes.
That doesn't make my argument fall flat on it's face. Actually, scholars don't even know how many differences there are in those manuscripts, because there is such a vast amount. We don't even know which ones are the originals.

Since we don't know what the originals are, it hard to actually find all of the changes or differences, because we don't have a starting point to work from. So your statement holds little water. Especially since there is good reason to assume that later additions did creep in. Such as the ending of Mark, which in many Bibles, is even said to be an addition. That is only a simple one. There is also the story in Luke of Jesus sweating blood, which there is good reason to assume that it was a later addition to the text.
if you were a jew living under the mosaic law then sacrifices and the priesthood were the only way to approach God.
As I said, look at the history written in the hebrew scriptures for verification that approval was dependent upon the priests.
Except Hebrew scripture doesn't say that through the priesthood and sacrifices is the only way to approach God. That is why God is said to have spoken to various prophets. That is why God is said to have given messages to others. That is why people are said to have talked to God. All in the Hebrew scripture. Your point here simply has no evidence to back it up. More so, the priesthood didn't always exist.
not if you were living under the Mosaic Law. That is what the mosaic law required... remember that you keep repeating that christians should be following the mosaic law... How do you follow a law that requires the sons of Aaron to be the mediating priests?
You don't understand Mosaic Law then. The fact that Jews can still find atonement, without the Temple, shows that you're wrong. It is as simple as that.

As for whether or not Christians should follow the laws, according to Jesus, they should. However, the religion has moved on greatly from that. As for the sons of Aaron, if God restores the Temple, as God promised, God can figure it out.
 

Wombat

Active Member
unfortunately, i dont subscribe to the idea that there will be another prophet to come after Jesus..

That's Ok Pegg...The first century Palestinians didn't "subscribe to the idea" that the Messiah wouldn't be a warrior king who smote the Romans...they didn't subscribe on equally strong scriptural interpretation grounds.;)


Bahais accept Jesus but believe that he would be succeeded by another prophet in the same way that Islam teaches. But such a succession of prophets is contrary to what is written in the bible at Hebrews 7:24, 25:

Pegg...Your response speaks of accepting 'Jesus' then the quote you provide goes on to describe 'Christ'....I would point out/remind that 'Christ' is not the 'Surname' of Jesus. The Christ, the anointed one of God, is not an appellation that describes one corporal man.

“He (Christ) because of continuing alive forever has his priesthood without any successors. Consequently he is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them :

To be certain Pegg...I Googled the passage from Hebrews qouted above then consulted two Bibles and a Biblical Thesaurus....

I found NOTHING that resembled your underlined text " without any successors."

24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Hebrews 7:24-25 - Passage*Lookup - New King James Version - BibleGateway.com


24But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Hebrews 7:24-25 - Passage*Lookup - King James Version - BibleGateway.com


but he, because he remains forever, has a priesthood that does not pass away.
17 Therefore, he is always able to save those who approach God through him, since he lives forever to make intercession for them.
USCCB - NAB - Hebrews 7
24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. 25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost[1] those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

Passage: Hebrews 7:24-25 (ESV Bible Online)

The last link provides 17 translations/versions of Hebrews 7:24, 25 and >not one of them< says anything about "without any successors."
or anything like it.
Hebrews 7:25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

???????????????????????????????????????????????????:shrug::shrug::shrug:

Bye Pegg.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Except Hebrew scripture doesn't say that through the priesthood and sacrifices is the only way to approach God. That is why God is said to have spoken to various prophets. That is why God is said to have given messages to others. That is why people are said to have talked to God. All in the Hebrew scripture. Your point here simply has no evidence to back it up. More so, the priesthood didn't always exist.

thats right, and neither did the mosaic law. So to say that the mosaic law remains for all eternity is not in harmony with facts either. You are right, we dont need the mosaic law to approach God.

The priesthood was actually instituted at the same time as the mosaic law...they went hand in hand. You couldn't have one without the other because the priesthood had 3 functions to perform.
1. Teach the mosaic law
2. Judge the people according to the mosaic law
3. Offer sacrifices to God on behalf of the people as prescribed in mosaic law.

Before the mosaic law, the patriarchal heads from all mankind approached God on behalf of his family members.
During the mosaic law period, only the priests approached God on behalf of the nation of Isreal.
After the mosaic law, Jesus approached God on behalf of all mankind.
 

Christian Gnosis

Active Member
I know what I think of the Quran, even though I'm not a Christian. Muhammad had good intentions and he did come from an extremely barbaric society, but despite that, I still find some things in the Quran hard to swallow. The way he speaks of Pagans in the Quran is also unacceptable. He basically speaks of Pagans as though they are scum who do no good. I cannot say this man was a prophet, or that he was being good at the times he was spouting this hate and misinformation.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Pegg...Your response speaks of accepting 'Jesus' then the quote you provide goes on to describe 'Christ'....I would point out/remind that 'Christ' is not the 'Surname' of Jesus. The Christ, the anointed one of God, is not an appellation that describes one corporal man.

Christ means 'Messiah' ... there can only be one messiah, yes?

To be certain Pegg...I Googled the passage from Hebrews qouted above then consulted two Bibles and a Biblical Thesaurus....
I found NOTHING that resembled your underlined text " without any successors."

24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

the translators have used this phrase because it accurately portrays the idea that his priesthood is 'unchangeable' meaning it wont change hands to a new successor. Jesus lives 'forever' and therefore will always be with God to plead for us.
 

Wombat

Active Member
Christ means 'Messiah' ....

That's what I just said Pegg-"The Christ, the anointed one of God"

Christos- Greek- anointed
Messiah- Hebrew- anointed.

there can only be one messiah, yes? ....

God can anoint only one person?
If you don't get the same physical person of Jesus...it cannot be the 'Second Coming' of the Christos, the anointed one?
Need the white horse, the sword of fire and the bodily descent from the clouds too?

the translators have used this phrase because it accurately portrays the idea that his priesthood is 'unchangeable' meaning it wont change hands to a new successor..

Which "translators"?
Seriously.
What Bible are you drawing this"without any successors." quote from with such confidence and authority that it is underlined for emphasis...and yet...cannot be found in any standard translation. I've looked in twenty different versions of the Bible and can't find a single referance to "without any successors." or anything like it.
In what way does it "accurately portrays the idea" if nothing like "successor" is said or suggested.


Jesus lives 'forever' and therefore will always be with God to plead for us.

Yes. That is >exactly< what Hebrews 7:24, 25 says- "a priesthood that does not pass away"....If God anoints another the authority established in Christ remains/if God does not anoint another the authority established in Christ remains.

The passage you cite says >nothing< and suggests >nothing< about "without any successors." and no Bible in evidence supports this falsified translation.

I pray you will excuse me Pegg...but I'm 'old school'...verbal abuse doesn't phase me, a slap across the ear might be just what I deserve, spill my beer and I won't get too upset..................but don't mess with scripture and insert phrases that just arn't there. That's not "translation", that's falsification of sacred text.

As they say in the Koorie community- "Big shame job".
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
The passage you cite says >nothing< and suggests >nothing< about "without any successors." and no Bible in evidence supports this falsified translation.

I pray you will excuse me Pegg...but I'm 'old school'...verbal abuse doesn't phase me, a slap across the ear might be just what I deserve, spill my beer and I won't get too upset..................but don't mess with scripture and insert phrases that just arn't there. That's not "translation", that's falsification of sacred text.

As they say in the Koorie community- "Big shame job".

ok thats fine, you are entitled to your opinion on the matter of translation

however, translators all have to add phrases in when translating into english because many greek words cannot be conveyed with a simple english word... a phrase is often necessary to obtain a more accurate meaning. In this case the prhase 'without successors' is in full harmony with the context of the verse.

If Christ is in heaven with God acting as high priest for all mankind, why would God need to send someone else?

And where did Jesus ever imply or say that God would send a prophet after him?
 

Wombat

Active Member
however, translators all have to add phrases in when translating into english because many greek words cannot be conveyed with a simple english word... a phrase is often necessary to obtain a more accurate meaning. In this case the prhase 'without successors' is in full harmony with the context of the verse.

Your "translators", who cannot be identified, of a Bible, which cannot be identified, took a greek word, which cannot be identified and had to "add a phrase" "to obtain a more accurate meaning"......a "meaning" not found, reflected or shared by two dozen reputable translations of the Bible in even a hint of any way shape or form.

Your in Australia?.....You must be familiar with the bovine vernacular for such circumstances.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
thats right, and neither did the mosaic law. So to say that the mosaic law remains for all eternity is not in harmony with facts either. You are right, we dont need the mosaic law to approach God.

The priesthood was actually instituted at the same time as the mosaic law...they went hand in hand. You couldn't have one without the other because the priesthood had 3 functions to perform.
1. Teach the mosaic law
2. Judge the people according to the mosaic law
3. Offer sacrifices to God on behalf of the people as prescribed in mosaic law.

Before the mosaic law, the patriarchal heads from all mankind approached God on behalf of his family members.
During the mosaic law period, only the priests approached God on behalf of the nation of Isreal.
After the mosaic law, Jesus approached God on behalf of all mankind.
No no no no. You aren't even paying attention, and you certainly can't back up what you're saying with scripture. None of what you said is true. At all times, a human could approach God. They could pray and speak with God by praying.

The biggest rebuttal to what you're saying is the fact that there were prophets. If what you say is true, then there would be no prophets.

What it has come down to is that you don't understand Mosaic law, and are thus arguing from ignorance. Doing so is highly disrespectful as all you're doing is spreading misinformation.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
ok thats fine, you are entitled to your opinion on the matter of translation

however, translators all have to add phrases in when translating into english because many greek words cannot be conveyed with a simple english word... a phrase is often necessary to obtain a more accurate meaning. In this case the prhase 'without successors' is in full harmony with the context of the verse.
How do you know it is in full harmony with the context of the verse? Can you read Greek? If not, what is your source?

Second, without being able to read the Greek, you won't get a completely accurate meaning. Here is a good analogy. Reading the text in Greek is like seeing it in full color. Reading it in English, is like reading it in black and white. Simply, you loose a lot.
If Christ is in heaven with God acting as high priest for all mankind, why would God need to send someone else?
Why did God have to send prophets? Because he wants to speak with his followers. Prophets help allow this.
And where did Jesus ever imply or say that God would send a prophet after him?
Maybe you want to show where Jesus implies that God won't. Meaning you are confined to just the Gospels.
 

Archer

Well-Known Member
&#8220;Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End...................... 18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
 
The final Word of GOD is declared in the Qur'an. Why is it so hard for Christians to accept that GOD needed to send the Qur'an to them. Just like GOD sent the Gospel to the Jews, and the Jews did not accept the Gospel. GOD sent the Qur'an to the Christians and they do not accept the Qur'an.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Your "translators", who cannot be identified, of a Bible, which cannot be identified, took a greek word, which cannot be identified and had to "add a phrase" "to obtain a more accurate meaning"......a "meaning" not found, reflected or shared by two dozen reputable translations of the Bible in even a hint of any way shape or form.

Your in Australia?.....You must be familiar with the bovine vernacular for such circumstances.


i apologize, i thought you'd know that the bible i quote from would be the NWT as Im a Jehovahs Witness. I always quote from the NWT unless i state otherwise.

with regard to the greek word aparabatos in vs 24, it means both unchangeable and permanent in english. But that could simply mean that that office of the priesthood remains forever just as the office of Aarons priesthood was said to be unchangeable.
So the question is what does 'unchangeable' in the context of the verse really mean.

Im assuming the NWT includes the phrase 'without successors' because Paul is explaining why Jesus priesthood is superior to all the priesthoods which came before it.

I'll take it from the ASB - From Vs 19 he says :
19(for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. 20And inasmuch as it was not without an oath
21(for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,
"THE LORD HAS SWORN
AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND,
'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'");



How can Jesus be a priest forever if he is succeeded by another? That is what you need prove. That Jesus will be succeeded by another and in the context of Pauls words, i dont think you can do that. Im only assuming that this is why the NWT included 'without successors'... to know for sure i'd have to write to them and request an explanation. But i dont feel the need to do so because i can see myself that the phrase identifies how the priesthood of Jesus is 'unchangeable' and its perfectly in harmony with the context of what Paul is explaining.
Jesus is the priest forever...no one will succeed him.
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
No no no no. You aren't even paying attention, and you certainly can't back up what you're saying with scripture. None of what you said is true. At all times, a human could approach God. They could pray and speak with God by praying.

yes they could do that with or without the mosaic law. But your context of the law keeps changing. I am always referring to the ordinances of the law...the prescriptions of justice and atonement for sins and the ceremonial requirements. Im not talking about simply praying to God.

You insist that christians should keep every word of the mosaic law, that must include all the requirements of the law including the ordinances/sacrifices/purification rituals/ceremonies, yet its impossible to do so without a priesthood to administer it.

The biggest rebuttal to what you're saying is the fact that there were prophets. If what you say is true, then there would be no prophets.
Why were the prophets necessary, is the question you should be asking.

Jeremiah 23:11 &#8220;For both the prophet and the priest themselves have become polluted. Also in my own house I have found their badness,&#8221; is the utterance of Jehovah. 12 &#8220;Therefore their way will become for them like slippery places in the gloom, into which they will be pushed and certainly fall.&#8221;...13 &#8220;And in the prophets of Sa&#8231;mar&#8242;i&#8231;a I have seen impropriety. They have acted as prophets [incited] by Ba&#8242;al, and they keep making my people, even Israel, wander about. 14 And in the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen horrible things, committing adultery and walking in falsehood; ...15 ...For from the prophets of Jerusalem apostasy has gone forth to all the land.&#8221;

2Chronicles 33:9 And Ma&#8231;nas&#8242;seh kept seducing Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to do worse than the nations that Jehovah had annihilated from before the sons of Israel.

You see, when the priests were corrupt, the people became corrupt and when the priests were faithful the people were faithful....why? Because the priests led the people before God by means of the mosaic law. If they didnt lead the people in the law by 'doing' the law, then God did not accept them :
Isaiah 9:16-17 "And those who are leading this people on prove to be the ones causing [them] to wander; and those of them who are being led on, the ones who are being confused. 17 That is why Jehovah will not rejoice even over their young men, and upon their fatherless boys and upon their widows he will have no mercy; because all of them are apostates and evildoers and every mouth is speaking senselessness. In view of all this his anger has not turned back, but his hand is stretched out still"
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
How do you know it is in full harmony with the context of the verse? Can you read Greek? If not, what is your source?
Because look at vs 23 which says that all the other priests had to be succeeded because death prevented them from continuing on as priests... yet about Jesus he says 'You are a priest forever" because he 'lives forever'

i dont speak greek so like everyone else who can't speak greek I have to rely on an english translation.

Second, without being able to read the Greek, you won't get a completely accurate meaning. Here is a good analogy. Reading the text in Greek is like seeing it in full color. Reading it in English, is like reading it in black and white. Simply, you loose a lot.

thats exactly right and its why translators have to add in additional phrases by NECESSITY just to be able to convey the full sense of the greek.

If anyone wants to see a word for word translation from the greek they can see it in the interlinear bibles... but they are not necessarily going to help you understand the full meaning...unless of course you can speak koine greek.

Why did God have to send prophets? Because he wants to speak with his followers. Prophets help allow this.
the prophets were sent because the priests had been unfaithful and when the priests were unfaithful, God would not speak to them or the people.

Maybe you want to show where Jesus implies that God won't. Meaning you are confined to just the Gospels.

John 14:6 &#8220;I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.&#8221;

Acts 4:12 Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved
 
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Archer

Well-Known Member
The final Word of GOD is declared in the Qur'an. Why is it so hard for Christians to accept that GOD needed to send the Qur'an to them. Just like GOD sent the Gospel to the Jews, and the Jews did not accept the Gospel. GOD sent the Qur'an to the Christians and they do not accept the Qur'an.

A Christian can not accept that. I accept that the Quran has many teachings in line with my views and that in faith we can reach a plateau of understanding and mutual happiness. The Quran is inspired by faith in something more than this life, was it God? I will not say no however if I were to say it is of God then I deny my salvation. I do not hate or even dislike Muslims and as a matter of fact have much respect for Muslims that actually pray as commanded and keep to the rules of life set forth in the Quran for life. I wish more Christians took their faith as seriously.
 
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