What do Christians really think about the Qur'an

[Pegg]

Is he? Did not God condone the killing of witches? Or the slaughter of innocents? Or would it be better to assume those are human actions not driven by God?

People can and do things in the name of religion that do not portray God. You should know that.
More reasonable? According to the NT, sinners will burn in hell for all eternity.

yes i do know that, however, any christian can look in a theological word book and discover for themselves that hell is merely the grave. If they are stupid enough to go on in such a false teaching as hell then it is their own fault.
But the fact that the Quran does allow for such discipline in the first place puts people at the mercy of other people rather then at the mercy of God.

The punishment is in the hands of the people because they are given the choice to either flog the person or forgive them. I for one dont trust that sort of power in the hands of anyone.

Plus, God is not forcing anyone to do anything in the Quran. There is still a choice. The Quran does not take away anyone's ability to live by reason of faith. The argument hardly even makes sense. Do I have to follow the Quran word for word to be alright with God? No. It simply doesn't happen.

no, in the Quran you can either take retribution or not take retribution...you can either punish or not punish... the choice is yours.
But the person who has been accused has no choice in the matter does he. He will either be beaten, or forgiven.... it depends on what the people decide to do with him. So he does not have a choice.

More so, Christianity has been the backing or disguise for many atrocities. Many of these atrocities were and are done in the name of God, by Christians. Should we judge your religion by those individuals? That is what you're doing with Islam.

Not really because there is a huge difference here. The NT does not make such allowances as floggings and stonings and crusades and wars....the Quran does.

So by looking at what 'christians' do we can compare with the NT and see that they have acted in opposition to the bible and in so doing they prove themselves not to be christian at all. But when a muslim takes retribution on another, or when a mob stone a fornicator they ARE acting in harmony with what the Quran tells them they CAN do.

Finally, Christians have more than just the New Testament. You also have the Old Testament, which Jesus, and the apostles, as well as Paul, all remained were scripture, and thus should be observed. We really don't need to try to take the Bible out of context (like you did with the Quran) to how it is "evil."
Have you ever been a Muslim? I don't think so. So how can you even state something like this?

i dont believe i've stated anywhere in this thread that the Quran is evil. My position is that it is the work of men and it shows itself to be the work of men by putting men in control of the justice system. God does not need people to administer his justice to a wrongdoer...if he did then he wouldnt be God.

More so, preaching fire and brimestone is not making people live by reason of fear of punishment? There are many cases in which Christians (not all of them), spread their religion by fear mongering.

yes i agree... however we can compare what they are teaching with the bible and the bibles teaching is not fire and brimstone.
As soon as they start teaching pagan ideas, then they are no longer christians.

I can say one thing though. I've been both Muslim and Christian, and I have to say I had a lot less fear of eternal punishment being a Muslim.
That just shows you're ignorance, and disrespect for Muslims. To question their faith in God is simply uncalled for. And to say that they are being forced to obey, when you clearly have no personal idea of being a Muslim, and a warped view in total, shows your ignorance, and lack of want for any understanding of Islam.

i think you are taking it personally, so i apologize if my opinion is not to your liking.

 

[Pegg]

So then why is it alright for Christians not to love God's law?

its not alright... but it is up to God to judge them, not any man.

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.”


this is the superiority of the NT over the Quran in my opinion. It is God who judges and his judgments are perfect whereas humans act out of spite and ignorance. This is why Christians are not to judge and punish each other.

 

[A-ManESL]

its not alright... but it is up to God to judge them, not any man.

Likewise in Islam, the final judgement is of God.

Verily, as for those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], and those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Sabians, and the Christians, and the Magians, [on the one hand,] and those who are bent on ascribing divinity to aught but God, [on the other,] verily, God will decide between them on Resurrection Day: for, behold, God is witness unto everything.-Quran 22:17

Since Islam is concerned with the whole way of life, social political and economical, there are laws made for living accordingly, just like there is a criminal and civil justice system in secular societies. That does not mean, that this is a final judgement of an individual, but Islamic laws are necessary for the smooth functioning of Islamic society.

Regards

 

[Pegg]

Likewise in Islam, the final judgement is of God.

yeah but here's the problem ... the first judgment in Islam comes from man

So basically people condemn other people to death or to torture, then they say 'Allah is merciful' ... it makes no sense.

If Allah is merciful & forgiving, then the followers should be the same... but they have a choice to be the opposite.

Since Islam is concerned with the whole way of life, social political and economical, there are laws made for living accordingly, just like there is a criminal and civil justice system in secular societies. That does not mean, that this is a final judgement of an individual, but Islamic laws are necessary for the smooth functioning of Islamic society.

yes i completely agree with that, every country needs law and order. But should any coutry enforce the laws of a religion onto its people...that is the question.

this is why western govts have established laws 'outside' of the religions practiced in their lands. But each to his own, im actually all for a theocracy so long as it is God who administers it and not imperfect fallible sinful people.

 

[fallingblood]

its not alright... but it is up to God to judge them, not any man.

So then you would agree that Christians should be following the Mosaic law, and that Jesus never fulfilled it? That solves one problem.

this is the superiority of the NT over the Quran in my opinion. It is God who judges and his judgments are perfect whereas humans act out of spite and ignorance. This is why Christians are not to judge and punish each other.

You do realize that it is also God who supposedly divinely inspired the Quran?

I'm thinking you have never actually read the Quran critically; if you ever even read it. Thus, you really have no logical reason to be criticizing it.

 

[A-ManESL]

If Allah is merciful & forgiving, then the followers should be the same... but they have a choice to be the opposite.

Muslims are supposed to be merciful and forgiving. But if circumstances necessitate or the demands of justice indicate that someone has to be punished, then it would be wrong to forgive in all cases. For a harmonious functioning of a society, it would be wrong to forgive all criminals.

yes i completely agree with that, every country needs law and order. But should any coutry enforce the laws of a religion onto its people...that is the question.

You must first understand the idea of Islam from an Islamic perspective before criticizing it. You are thinking of the Islamic religion in terms of a Christian perspective, where religion is a different stream of life then law and order. The Islamic viewpoint is strongly built in Unity. Praying and Fasting are as much part of Islam as ordinary day to day actions. Islamic laws are not merely laws of religion, indeed Islam is not just a religion but a whole way of life. If you can understand this fundamental difference in the point of view of Christian and Islamic thought, then perhaps you can understand what I am talking about.

Regards

 

[fallingblood]

yeah but here's the problem ... the first judgment in Islam comes from man

So basically people condemn other people to death or to torture, then they say 'Allah is merciful' ... it makes no sense.

If Allah is merciful & forgiving, then the followers should be the same... but they have a choice to be the opposite.

Christians have the choice to be the opposite as well. So really, that argument fails.

The rest is basically you objecting to any form of law system and judgement. However, what you fail to realize, it is needed. There needs to be judgement right now. Otherwise, there will be chaos.

yes i completely agree with that, every country needs law and order. But should any coutry enforce the laws of a religion onto its people...that is the question.

this is why western govts have established laws 'outside' of the religions practiced in their lands. But each to his own, im actually all for a theocracy so long as it is God who administers it and not imperfect fallible sinful people.

You need to separate Islam from extremist Muslims. You haven't. Thus, everything you say only shows an uninformed opinion. Until you can actually talk about Islam, then your opinion doesn't matter.

As for forcing the laws of a religion onto its people, Christianity did that for how long? You need to look at the subject objectively.

 

[Pegg]

So then you would agree that Christians should be following the Mosaic law, and that Jesus never fulfilled it? That solves one problem.
You do realize that it is also God who supposedly divinely inspired the Quran?

I'm thinking you have never actually read the Quran critically; if you ever even read it. Thus, you really have no logical reason to be criticizing it.

christians were taken into a 'new covenant' with Jesus as their King. That covenant does not require them to follow Moses and his covenant.

And when you talk about Jesus never 'fulfilling' the law, im not sure you know what 'fulfilling' it meant. His own righteousness fulfilled the law. And Christians can fulfill the requirement of the law according to the Apostle Paul:

Rom. 8:1-4. “Therefore those in union with Christ Jesus have no condemnation. For the law of that spirit which gives life in union with Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For, there being an incapability on the part of the [Mosaic] Law, while it was weak through the flesh, God, by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who walk, not in accord with the flesh, but in accord with the spirit.”

The spirit behind the mosaic law is to act in righteousness. In regards to the Quran, it allows for people to be violent toward one another which I dont agree with... so i can be critical of it for that very reason.

 

[Pegg]

Muslims are supposed to be merciful and forgiving. But if circumstances necessitate or the demands of justice indicate that someone has to be punished, then it would be wrong to forgive in all cases. For a harmonious functioning of a society, it would be wrong to forgive all criminals.

Im all for punishment in the form of jails where criminals are sent to pay time for their crimes... im just against punishment in the form of stoning and floggings and chopping off hands and feet.

I saw recently footage of a muslim woman in Sudan who was publically whipped because she was wearing long trouser like pants beneath her bourqua... is it unrighteous of her to cover all her legs with long pants? How can that possibly be immodest? It is actually more modest then not wearing anything beneath her dress. So this is what my beef is with how islam administers its 'justice'
Does God want that woman whipped 40 times because she chose to wear long pants?

You must first understand the idea of Islam from an Islamic perspective before criticizing it. You are thinking of the Islamic religion in terms of a Christian perspective, where religion is a different stream of life then law and order. The Islamic viewpoint is strongly built in Unity. Praying and Fasting are as much part of Islam as ordinary day to day actions. Islamic laws are not merely laws of religion, indeed Islam is not just a religion but a whole way of life. If you can understand this fundamental difference in the point of view of Christian and Islamic thought, then perhaps you can understand what I am talking about.

Regards

I do understand that Islam is a theocracy. I know exactly what a theocracy is. The Jews lived under a theorcracy from the time of Moses until the destruction of the temple. Theocracy is good and im all for it. But its only good if it is God who administers it and unfortunately God is not administering the theocracy of Islam. It is men making the judgments, not God.

 

[fallingblood]

yes i do know that, however, any christian can look in a theological word book and discover for themselves that hell is merely the grave. If they are stupid enough to go on in such a false teaching as hell then it is their own fault.
But the fact that the Quran does allow for such discipline in the first place puts people at the mercy of other people rather then at the mercy of God.

The punishment is in the hands of the people because they are given the choice to either flog the person or forgive them. I for one dont trust that sort of power in the hands of anyone.

Or maybe it's the fault of God, who did not specify his opinion enough. I mean, Christians are going into the Bible, finding these ideas of hell, and supporting it with scripture. More so, if Revelations is truly about the end times, as a literalist view holds, then the sinners will burn in the lake of fire for all eternity.

Also, the Bible allows for discipline. The NT never abolished such discipline. It may not talk about it; however, there was no point, as it was already in the scripture. Paul, many times, refers to various books of the OT as scripture. That scripture, as far as Paul, or any of the NT writers were concerned, was still divinely inspired, and in effect. So yes, the Bible allows for that same type of discipline. And really, at some point, there is need for some type of discipline. Otherwise, we have chaos.

no, in the Quran you can either take retribution or not take retribution...you can either punish or not punish... the choice is yours.
But the person who has been accused has no choice in the matter does he. He will either be beaten, or forgiven.... it depends on what the people decide to do with him. So he does not have a choice.

That shows what I said wrong how? More so, you are showing that the verses you quoted do not have to be followed, and thus, weakens your argument. Because if you read the Quran in context, you're supposed to be forgiving. You're supposed to be peaceful.

As for the people who did wrong, they had a choice. There are consequences for choices. The same is true in the Bible.

Not really because there is a huge difference here. The NT does not make such allowances as floggings and stonings and crusades and wars....the Quran does.

So by looking at what 'christians' do we can compare with the NT and see that they have acted in opposition to the bible and in so doing they prove themselves not to be christian at all. But when a muslim takes retribution on another, or when a mob stone a fornicator they ARE acting in harmony with what the Quran tells them they CAN do.

Christians don't have just the NT. They also have the OT, which the writers of the NT held as scripture. So to ignore the OT is an error. And the OT does condone much of that.

And how does the Quran allow crusades and wars? Is that you just not actually reading the Quran again? More so, do you know how Christians justified those Crusades and wars? The Bible.

Seriously, though, you've never read the Quran have you? Spreading the ignorance that you are is serving only to do one thing, spread hatred. And it is clear you have little to no respect for Islam.

i dont believe i've stated anywhere in this thread that the Quran is evil. My position is that it is the work of men and it shows itself to be the work of men by putting men in control of the justice system. God does not need people to administer his justice to a wrongdoer...if he did then he wouldnt be God.

Yet, you didn't answer my question. Second, the Bible does in fact allow people to administer his justice to wrongdoers. So obviously, God needs it. Other wise, why would he have had so many laws concerning it?

yes i agree... however we can compare what they are teaching with the bible and the bibles teaching is not fire and brimstone.
As soon as they start teaching pagan ideas, then they are no longer christians.

That is great. You can decide who and who is not Christian? I'm seeing a pattern here. You really don't have respect for anyone accept the "true" Christians. So instead, you spread hate about them. You may not call it hate, but it is spreading hate.

As for fire and brimstone, just read Revelations. There is enough in there, if one is to take the Bible literal.

i think you are taking it personally, so i apologize if my opinion is not to your liking.

I'm not taking it personally. I simply have little care for intolerance. That is what you are showing here. You clearly are misinformed about these other religions, and now you are spreading the misinformation. In return, you are showing very little respect for these other belief systems.

 

[Pegg]

Christians have the choice to be the opposite as well. So really, that argument fails.

No it doesnt because the NT tell christians THEY MUST forgive and not take retribution or retaliate. The Quran tells muslims THEY CAN take retribution or retaliate if they want to.

So its about whether the laws are from a divine source or not.

The NT is completely divine in that it tells christians that they are to remain peaceful even when they are being attacked..."vengence is mine says God"... the NT takes corporal punishment out of mans hands whereas the Quran puts it into mans hands.

Do you understand the difference here?

 

[A-ManESL]

Im all for punishment in the form of jails where criminals are sent to pay time for their crimes... im just against punishment in the form of stoning and floggings and chopping off hands and feet.

I saw recently footage of a muslim woman in Sudan who was publically whipped because she was wearing long trouser like pants beneath her bourqua... is it unrighteous of her to cover all her legs with long pants? How can that possibly be immodest? It is actually more modest then not wearing anything beneath her dress. So this is what my beef is with how islam administers its 'justice'
Does God want that woman whipped 40 times because she chose to wear long pants?

You are taking a very hard lined interpretation of the sharia and thinking that this is how a quarter of the world supports all kinds of injustice done in the name of Islam. I feel you have some persuasion bias towards Islam. It is like I say Christianity is wrong because of the brutality and the massacres done in the names of Christianity in the dark ages.

I do understand that Islam is a theocracy. I know exactly what a theocracy is. The Jews lived under a theorcracy from the time of Moses until the destruction of the temple. Theocracy is good and im all for it. But its only good if it is God who administers it and unfortunately God is not administering the theocracy of Islam. It is men making the judgments, not God.

For practical purposes men have to make judgments in the court. People can only try their best to implement God's commands with reason and logic.

Regards

 

[fallingblood]

christians were taken into a 'new covenant' with Jesus as their King. That covenant does not require them to follow Moses and his covenant.

And yet Jesus himself specifically states that you are supposed to follow the Law (as in the Law of Moses) to the smallest letter. Jesus never speaks of a new covenant.

And when you talk about Jesus never 'fulfilling' the law, im not sure you know what 'fulfilling' it meant. His own righteousness fulfilled the law. And Christians can fulfill the requirement of the law according to the Apostle Paul:

I know what fulfilling is. And no, it is an impossibility to fulfill Jewish law. You can't fulfill a law. That is like me saying, oh, it's okay to kill, because someone already fulfilled that law. It simply doesn't make sense. Especially when Jesus states explicitly that you are to follow the Laws to the letter.

The spirit behind the mosaic law is to act in righteousness. In regards to the Quran, it allows for people to be violent toward one another which I dont agree with... so i can be critical of it for that very reason.

Being critical for that very reason is hypocritical. You obviously never read the Mosaic law. And you obviously don't understand the Quran. Maybe you should actually do some research before you make such a disrespectful, and honestly, hateful comment. It's hateful, because it is based on ignorance, and by spreading that ignorance, is spreading hate.

 

[fallingblood]

Im all for punishment in the form of jails where criminals are sent to pay time for their crimes... im just against punishment in the form of stoning and floggings and chopping off hands and feet.

I saw recently footage of a muslim woman in Sudan who was publically whipped because she was wearing long trouser like pants beneath her bourqua... is it unrighteous of her to cover all her legs with long pants? How can that possibly be immodest? It is actually more modest then not wearing anything beneath her dress. So this is what my beef is with how islam administers its 'justice'
Does God want that woman whipped 40 times because she chose to wear long pants?

Here it is again. You fail to separate Islam, and culture. You look at some extremists, and judge all of Islam on that. That is simply illogical.

If we want to use your methods, should I look at the Churches who spread hate towards homosexuals, terrorize them, as well as family of soldiers, and preach how they are happy that 9/11 happened, and then assume all Christians are gay-bashing, terrorists, who rejoice in the events of 9/11?

I do understand that Islam is a theocracy. I know exactly what a theocracy is. The Jews lived under a theorcracy from the time of Moses until the destruction of the temple. Theocracy is good and im all for it. But its only good if it is God who administers it and unfortunately God is not administering the theocracy of Islam. It is men making the judgments, not God.

That is simply ridiculous. How do you know that God is not administering the theocracy of Islam? Because your God would never care for another religion? Because your God could only support Christianity?

 

[fallingblood]

No it doesnt because the NT tell christians THEY MUST forgive and not take retribution or retaliate. The Quran tells muslims THEY CAN take retribution or retaliate if they want to.

So its about whether the laws are from a divine source or not.

The NT is completely divine in that it tells christians that they are to remain peaceful even when they are being attacked..."vengence is mine says God"... the NT takes corporal punishment out of mans hands whereas the Quran puts it into mans hands.

Do you understand the difference here?

Do you understand that Christians have more than the NT? Do you understand the the NT writers didn't need to repeat the OT, as they already agreed that it was scripture, and that it should continue to be used?

So any argument that you have that relies just on the NT is completely moot, as you are ignoring more than half of the Bible. You simply can't do that.

As for whether the Quran is divine, it is just as likely as your Bible being divine. To maintain that your holy book is divine, and the other not, is special pleading, and simply doesn't work.

 

[Blackheart]

Do you understand that Christians have more than the NT? Do you understand the the NT writers didn't need to repeat the OT, as they already agreed that it was scripture, and that it should continue to be used?

So any argument that you have that relies just on the NT is completely moot, as you are ignoring more than half of the Bible. You simply can't do that.

As for whether the Quran is divine, it is just as likely as your Bible being divine. To maintain that your holy book is divine, and the other not, is special pleading, and simply doesn't work.

There are differences between the Bible and the Quran and although I respect Muslims and thier belief in God I do have slight concerns or reservations about classing it as being as valid as the bible.

 

[Pegg]

And yet Jesus himself specifically states that you are supposed to follow the Law (as in the Law of Moses) to the smallest letter. Jesus never speaks of a new covenant.

Luke 22:28-30 “However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant (decree) with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant (decree) with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[fallingblood]

There are differences between the Bible and the Quran and although I respect Muslims and thier belief in God I do have slight concerns or reservations about classing it as being as valid as the bible.

Personally, I hold neither to actually be the word of God. I have no problem with people having faith one way or the other though. If you have faith that the Bible is the word of God, that is fine. But I don't really care for special pleading one way or the other. I figure, if you hold your holy book to be divine, I don't see how one can then logically say another doesn't have the chance to be as well.

 

[fallingblood]

Luke 22:28-30 “However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant (decree) with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant (decree) with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

Jesus made a deal with his disciples. He is talking about his disciples. He's not making a new covenant. That is not what that verse stated. It states that he made a deal with his disciples (which is why he says they will judge the twelve tribes, he isn't implying that all Christians will do that, only the disciples).

Again, not a new covenant, and not a covenant for everyone. It was not replacing the covenant with the Jews.

 

[Pegg]

So any argument that you have that relies just on the NT is completely moot, as you are ignoring more than half of the Bible. You simply can't do that.

The mosaic law is not half of the bible... the mosaic law is only 600 odd laws
Most of the Hebrew scriptures are the words of the prophets, songs used in worship and the history of the nation of Isreal and its people.

the mosaic laws only take up a tiny fraction of what is in the hebrew scriptures.

As for whether the Quran is divine, it is just as likely as your Bible being divine. To maintain that your holy book is divine, and the other not, is special pleading, and simply doesn't work.

contradictions and rough justice are enough to tell me that the Quran is not divine... if you can see Gods hand in it then you should follow it.