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What Do Palestinians Want?
- Thread starter Jayhawker Soule
- Start date
Strike one.
RocketJSquirell
Member
Columbus
I think these questions need to be answered:
1. Do you support the right of one or more Arab Palestinian states to exist and how many Arab Palestinian states do you want?
(Currently there is Jordan - an Arab Palestinian State comprised of over 70% of the Mandate for the creation of the Jewish State / Palestinian Mandate. There is Gaza. And there is the PA which is a wholly autonomous region.)
2. Do you support the right of one single Jewish state - Israel, to exist?
I await everyone's answers.
I think these questions need to be answered:
1. Do you support the right of one or more Arab Palestinian states to exist and how many Arab Palestinian states do you want?
(Currently there is Jordan - an Arab Palestinian State comprised of over 70% of the Mandate for the creation of the Jewish State / Palestinian Mandate. There is Gaza. And there is the PA which is a wholly autonomous region.)
2. Do you support the right of one single Jewish state - Israel, to exist?
I await everyone's answers.
Let me start with this question, I'll do the second in a separate post. The world deserves my full attention to each
I have no idea how to unscramble that egg. The mess left behind by the colonial powers and the Ottoman empire is staggering. The Muslim world is a whelter of violence and ignorance and dictatorship that I don't pretend to understand. I don't even speak a language except English.
So I don't know what would be most likely to result in peace, prosperity, and security for the people there. What I am confident of is that it isn't yet more western meddling at gunpoint. The USA should get the hell out.
That includes ceasing to import petroleum, which is the main source of cash to the icky governments there. And cut off official aid to Israel. They're grownups now.
I want the USA to stick to soft power. Help out the governments that take care of their people with humanitarian aid. Help the people there find their own path to a peaceful, prosperous and secure future. Not impose the one we think best at gunpoint.
Tom
Shusha
Member
What makes you think that I think that Iroquois self-determination is not a human rights issue? What I am trying to illuminate here is the double standards held by those who believe Palestinians have inviolable, inherent rights and the Jewish people don't.
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Yes, definitely.
I don't give a whit about scripture or God or the Balfour declaration or San Remo. The Zionists moved there, bought a lot of property, and built an excellent little country. It is now theirs
Frankly, if I had to flee my country Israel and Canada would be the only choices I would consider. I prefer Canadian culture, but Israel never has -40C blizzards. A toss up
I live in the present, 2015ce. I think the way Israel was created by the westerners was appalling and destined for trouble. With the clarity of hindsight, maybe a federation of nearly autonomous provinces with a solid legal protection for minority groups would have worked better. Who knows? It's not what happened.
Currently, Israel is the best place in the Middle East to live if you aren't one of the rich and powerful elite. If it weren't constantly under attack by the Muslims it would be even better. So I want it to continue to exist for the people who live there.
When I compare the situation of the Palestinian Muslims to that of the Israelis, I don't understand why the Palestinians don't want to join in with them and stop the violence. But I also don't understand why the Israelis continue to complain about the Muslim neighbors when the Palestinians have been there longer and aren't much different than they used to be.
Should Israel exist? Yes. Should they stop expecting me to help them fight their neighbors? Also yes.
Tom
RocketJSquirell
Member
Columbus
Again your facvts a wrong. The Arab Palestinians have NOT been there longer. Almost none of them can trace back further than 1900, most can't race back before 1948.
Again your facvts a wrong. The Arab Palestinians have NOT been there longer. Almost none of them can trace back further than 1900, most can't race back before 1948.
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This is no more true or constructive than FearGod's insistence that the Zionists invaded and stole Israel at gunpoint.
Tom
Shusha
Member
Yes, definitely.I don't give a whit about scripture or God or the Balfour declaration or San Remo. The Zionists moved there, bought a lot of property, and built an excellent little country. It is now theirs
Frankly, if I had to flee my country Israel and Canada would be the only choices I would consider. I prefer Canadian culture, but Israel never has -40C blizzards. A toss up
I live in the present, 2015ce. I think the way Israel was created by the westerners was appalling and destined for trouble. With the clarity of hindsight, maybe a federation of nearly autonomous provinces with a solid legal protection for minority groups would have worked better. Who knows? It's not what happened.
Currently, Israel is the best place in the Middle East to live if you aren't one of the rich and powerful elite. If it weren't constantly under attack by the Muslims it would be even better. So I want it to continue to exist for the people who live there.
When I compare the situation of the Palestinian Muslims to that of the Israelis, I don't understand why the Palestinians don't want to join in with them and stop the violence. But I also don't understand why the Israelis continue to complain about the Muslim neighbors when the Palestinians have been there longer and aren't much different than they used to be.
Should Israel exist? Yes. Should they stop expecting me to help them fight their neighbors? Also yes.
Tom
Not everywhere in Canada has -40C blizzards! Westcoast weather is lovely. Just sayin.
You should give a whit about Balfour and San Remo since they are legal documents and ignoring the law is generally to be frowned upon, imo. But I agree with you about scripture not being a valid basis for sovereignty.
I think the attitudes presented in the OP are the reason for the Palestinian violence. Do you agree or disagree? How would you suggest we go about changing some of those attitudes?
RocketJSquirell
Member
Columbus
Actually it is perfectly true. The Arab Palestinians do not have long roots in Israel. They are immigrants. Pretty much down the the last one.
That does not mean that they have no rights. It means that the "native narrative" is a lie.
http://www.jpost.com/Blogs/Why-Worl...abs-the-indigenous-people-of-Palestine-402785
"Meanwhile, there are no records to support the Palestinian narrative. In history, art and literature there is no trace at all of any Muslim people referred to by anybody as “Palestinians.”
Records show that it was 19th and 20th century Jewish settlement and the resulting employment opportunities that drew successive waves of Arab immigrants to Palestine. “The Arab population shows a remarkable increase ….. partly due to the import of Jewish capital into Palestine and other factors associated with the growth of the [Jewish] National Home..” (The Peel Commission Report - 1937)
“..in the Jewish settlement Rishon l’Tsion founded in 1882, by the year 1889, the forty Jewish families settled there, had attracted more than four hundred Arab families.... Many other Arab villages had sprouted in the same fashion.” (Joan Peters - From Time Immemorial p. 252 - referenced further as: FTI)
British PM Winston Churchill said in 1939: “.. far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country [Palestine]..”
Before the Six Day War in 1967, when Jordan controlled the West Bank and Egypt ruled in Gaza, there was never any suggestion on the part of the "Palestinians" that they wanted independence in their ancestral homeland. The reason was that the "Palestinian" nation hadn't been invented yet.
In fact, before the State of Israel was born, the term "Palestinians" was used by the Jews to refer to themselves and their organizations. “The Palestine Post”, the Palestine Foundation Fund, Palestine Airways, and the Palestine Symphony Orchestra were all purely Jewish enterprises."
Actually it is perfectly true. The Arab Palestinians do not have long roots in Israel. They are immigrants. Pretty much down the the last one.
That does not mean that they have no rights. It means that the "native narrative" is a lie.
http://www.jpost.com/Blogs/Why-Worl...abs-the-indigenous-people-of-Palestine-402785
"Meanwhile, there are no records to support the Palestinian narrative. In history, art and literature there is no trace at all of any Muslim people referred to by anybody as “Palestinians.”
Records show that it was 19th and 20th century Jewish settlement and the resulting employment opportunities that drew successive waves of Arab immigrants to Palestine. “The Arab population shows a remarkable increase ….. partly due to the import of Jewish capital into Palestine and other factors associated with the growth of the [Jewish] National Home..” (The Peel Commission Report - 1937)
“..in the Jewish settlement Rishon l’Tsion founded in 1882, by the year 1889, the forty Jewish families settled there, had attracted more than four hundred Arab families.... Many other Arab villages had sprouted in the same fashion.” (Joan Peters - From Time Immemorial p. 252 - referenced further as: FTI)
British PM Winston Churchill said in 1939: “.. far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country [Palestine]..”
Before the Six Day War in 1967, when Jordan controlled the West Bank and Egypt ruled in Gaza, there was never any suggestion on the part of the "Palestinians" that they wanted independence in their ancestral homeland. The reason was that the "Palestinian" nation hadn't been invented yet.
In fact, before the State of Israel was born, the term "Palestinians" was used by the Jews to refer to themselves and their organizations. “The Palestine Post”, the Palestine Foundation Fund, Palestine Airways, and the Palestine Symphony Orchestra were all purely Jewish enterprises."
RocketJSquirell
Member
cont.
Many individual authors have challenged the “Palestinian” narrative. Among these, one of the most ambitious was Joan Peters, who in 1984 published her thoroughly researched study of Arab immigration into Palestine, From Time Immemorial (FTI). Peters assembled many accounts of 19th century travelers’ journeys through the Holy Land that paint the picture of a forsaken and almost uninhabited land.
Mark Twain’s comments in 1867 are probably the best known: “….. A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds… a silent mournful expanse…. a desolation…. we never saw a human being on the whole route…. hardly a tree or shrub anywhere.”
Peters documents how the current land of Israel with its millions of Arabs and Jews gradually emerged from its desolate 19th century beginnings. She analyzes the respective populations of Muslims, Christians and Jews based on data available from existing sources including Ottoman census figures, government documents, old publications, scientific research, etc.
Peters’ work was received with accolades and praise in most quarters and with predictable outrage by the supporters of the “Palestinian” narrative The vehemence with which Peters was attacked was very telling. She had undermined the basis for the delegitimization of Israel. She had shown that the vast majority of “Palestinians” are not indigenous to Palestine but rather descendants of the Arab economic migrants who arrived in the late 19th and 20th centuries.
Peter’s thorough analysis consists of 410 pages of text and 190 pages of documentary appendices. The general public could hardly be expected to wade through the 600-page tome full of data tables and quotes from hundreds of sources. Thus the book was unable to reverse the continuing fiction of the indigenous “Palestinian” people whose lands have been stolen by the Jews.
A simple new way to prove Peters’ key conclusion
In the midst of various arguments, what has been overlooked is a simple and incontrovertible way to prove that the vast majority of “Palestinians” are the descendants of the relatively recent Arab immigrants.
Peters calculated that in 1882, just the non-nomadic, settled Muslims in Palestine numbered 141,000. Among them, those that resided in Palestine before the 1831 Egyptian invasion numbered 75 percent, or 105,700 (FTI page 197). By 2015, descendants of these 105,700 persons can trace their linage in Palestine for almost 200 years. Therefore, one might consider them to be the indigenous residents. The date 1831 is important, because this was the beginning of the war with Arab Egypt, during which many thousands of Arabs settled in Palestine and changed its demographics.
The number of 105,700 thousand settled Muslims is in general agreement with other important data. Walter Lowdermilk gives the total number of 200,000 people residing in Palestine in 1850 (page 76 – Palestine Land of Promise 1944). Lowdermilk's number includes Jews, Christians, travelling nomadic Bedouins and settled Muslims. It also includes Arabs that immigrated after the war of 1831. Arthur Ruppin estimates the total population in year 1882 as 300,000 Palestinian inhabitants, including nomadic and settled Muslims, Christians and Jews (The Jews in the Modern World, MacMillan - 1934 page 368).
If these 105,700 indigenous Muslims were to increase in numbers only through natural population growth, how many would they number today in 2015? This would represent the size of this population as if there were no Muslim immigration at all.
We can calculate the estimated 2015 native population, based on natural rates of population growth. I assume that the post-1882 Muslim population in Palestine -- apart from immigration — grew at approximately the same rate as the populations of neighboring Syria, Egypt and Lebanon for which rates we have reliable data. That rate of growth was 1.1% per annum. (FTI page 529 table in note 78) **
I used the compounded interest formula to do the math. Applying the 1.1% growth rate to the Muslim population resident in Palestine in 1882 yields a total number of 453,000 Muslim descendants in 2015 of these original 105,700 native people.
According to the 2015 World Almanac, the current “Palestinian” population, including Israeli Arabs, and Arab residents of Gaza, Golan, Judea and Samaria totals 10,523,715 people. 453,000 descendants of indigenous Muslim residents constitute only 4.3% of the current “Palestinian” population. Therefore the other 95.7% of present-day “Palestinians” are clearly those Arabs and their descendants who migrated to Israel between 1831 and 2015.
Many individual authors have challenged the “Palestinian” narrative. Among these, one of the most ambitious was Joan Peters, who in 1984 published her thoroughly researched study of Arab immigration into Palestine, From Time Immemorial (FTI). Peters assembled many accounts of 19th century travelers’ journeys through the Holy Land that paint the picture of a forsaken and almost uninhabited land.
Mark Twain’s comments in 1867 are probably the best known: “….. A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds… a silent mournful expanse…. a desolation…. we never saw a human being on the whole route…. hardly a tree or shrub anywhere.”
Peters documents how the current land of Israel with its millions of Arabs and Jews gradually emerged from its desolate 19th century beginnings. She analyzes the respective populations of Muslims, Christians and Jews based on data available from existing sources including Ottoman census figures, government documents, old publications, scientific research, etc.
Peters’ work was received with accolades and praise in most quarters and with predictable outrage by the supporters of the “Palestinian” narrative The vehemence with which Peters was attacked was very telling. She had undermined the basis for the delegitimization of Israel. She had shown that the vast majority of “Palestinians” are not indigenous to Palestine but rather descendants of the Arab economic migrants who arrived in the late 19th and 20th centuries.
Peter’s thorough analysis consists of 410 pages of text and 190 pages of documentary appendices. The general public could hardly be expected to wade through the 600-page tome full of data tables and quotes from hundreds of sources. Thus the book was unable to reverse the continuing fiction of the indigenous “Palestinian” people whose lands have been stolen by the Jews.
A simple new way to prove Peters’ key conclusion
In the midst of various arguments, what has been overlooked is a simple and incontrovertible way to prove that the vast majority of “Palestinians” are the descendants of the relatively recent Arab immigrants.
Peters calculated that in 1882, just the non-nomadic, settled Muslims in Palestine numbered 141,000. Among them, those that resided in Palestine before the 1831 Egyptian invasion numbered 75 percent, or 105,700 (FTI page 197). By 2015, descendants of these 105,700 persons can trace their linage in Palestine for almost 200 years. Therefore, one might consider them to be the indigenous residents. The date 1831 is important, because this was the beginning of the war with Arab Egypt, during which many thousands of Arabs settled in Palestine and changed its demographics.
The number of 105,700 thousand settled Muslims is in general agreement with other important data. Walter Lowdermilk gives the total number of 200,000 people residing in Palestine in 1850 (page 76 – Palestine Land of Promise 1944). Lowdermilk's number includes Jews, Christians, travelling nomadic Bedouins and settled Muslims. It also includes Arabs that immigrated after the war of 1831. Arthur Ruppin estimates the total population in year 1882 as 300,000 Palestinian inhabitants, including nomadic and settled Muslims, Christians and Jews (The Jews in the Modern World, MacMillan - 1934 page 368).
If these 105,700 indigenous Muslims were to increase in numbers only through natural population growth, how many would they number today in 2015? This would represent the size of this population as if there were no Muslim immigration at all.
We can calculate the estimated 2015 native population, based on natural rates of population growth. I assume that the post-1882 Muslim population in Palestine -- apart from immigration — grew at approximately the same rate as the populations of neighboring Syria, Egypt and Lebanon for which rates we have reliable data. That rate of growth was 1.1% per annum. (FTI page 529 table in note 78) **
I used the compounded interest formula to do the math. Applying the 1.1% growth rate to the Muslim population resident in Palestine in 1882 yields a total number of 453,000 Muslim descendants in 2015 of these original 105,700 native people.
According to the 2015 World Almanac, the current “Palestinian” population, including Israeli Arabs, and Arab residents of Gaza, Golan, Judea and Samaria totals 10,523,715 people. 453,000 descendants of indigenous Muslim residents constitute only 4.3% of the current “Palestinian” population. Therefore the other 95.7% of present-day “Palestinians” are clearly those Arabs and their descendants who migrated to Israel between 1831 and 2015.
RocketJSquirell
Member
cont.
Despite the substantial documentation assembled by Peters, demonstrating massive Arab immigration into Palestine, anti-Israel propagandists continue to deny it. Based on what we know today, and the simple truths of basic math, the issue has become clear and unambiguous. All historic records indicate that only insignificant number of long-term settled Muslims were present in Palestine before 1882, when the large Jewish immigration began. Muslim Arab numbers increased dramatically as Jewish settlements developed infrastructure and provided work opportunities to Arabs from the neighboring countries.
Also worth noting is that the “indigenous” 4.3% comprised many non-Arab nationalities. All of them were swamped by the Arab immigrants and within a few generations largely lost their identity.
Given the complete absence of any historical record to the contrary, we can authoritatively say that the “Palestinian people” never existed until they were invented in the 1960s as a tool for continuing the Arab war against Israel.
The claim that “Palestinians” are the indigenous people of Israel and that most of the present Palestinian Arabs have lived in these lands since time immemorial is a total fraud. Albeit posthumously, Joan Peters has had the last word on the subject
http://www.jpost.com/Blogs/Why-Worl...abs-the-indigenous-people-of-Palestine-402785
Facts matter. You should learn to respect them. If you can not respect them, try to acknowledge them.
Despite the substantial documentation assembled by Peters, demonstrating massive Arab immigration into Palestine, anti-Israel propagandists continue to deny it. Based on what we know today, and the simple truths of basic math, the issue has become clear and unambiguous. All historic records indicate that only insignificant number of long-term settled Muslims were present in Palestine before 1882, when the large Jewish immigration began. Muslim Arab numbers increased dramatically as Jewish settlements developed infrastructure and provided work opportunities to Arabs from the neighboring countries.
Also worth noting is that the “indigenous” 4.3% comprised many non-Arab nationalities. All of them were swamped by the Arab immigrants and within a few generations largely lost their identity.
Given the complete absence of any historical record to the contrary, we can authoritatively say that the “Palestinian people” never existed until they were invented in the 1960s as a tool for continuing the Arab war against Israel.
The claim that “Palestinians” are the indigenous people of Israel and that most of the present Palestinian Arabs have lived in these lands since time immemorial is a total fraud. Albeit posthumously, Joan Peters has had the last word on the subject
http://www.jpost.com/Blogs/Why-Worl...abs-the-indigenous-people-of-Palestine-402785
Facts matter. You should learn to respect them. If you can not respect them, try to acknowledge them.
RocketJSquirell
Member
Jayhawker - facts don;t change - Wikki is not the best source for facts. It becomes less reliable in direct proportion to political and other controversy.
When discussing this topic, one of the things one should look at is how Arabs describe themselves:
There is no such country as Palestine. ‘Palestine’ is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria. ‘Palestine’ is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it.” – Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, Syrian Arab leader
“There is no such thing as a Palestinian people, there is no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people, Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people.” – Syrian dictator Hafez Assad to the PLO leader Yassir Arafat
“There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not.” – Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian
“It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but Southern Syria.” – Representative of Saudi Arabia at the United Nations
“Palestine and Jordan are one…” -King Abdullah in 1948
“The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan.” – King Hussein of Jordan, in 1981
Jordanians, for decades, were avid proponents of the ‘Jordan is Palestine’ position. They used that position as justification for the annexation of Judea and Samaria, arguing that Palestine was one single, indivisible unit, and that Jordan was the legitimate governing body of Palestine…
“We are the government of Palestine, the army of Palestine and the refugees of Palestine.” -Prime Minister of Jordan, Hazza’ al-Majali, 23 August 1959
“Palestine is Jordan and Jordan is Palestine; there is one people and one land, with one history and one and the same fate.” -Prince Hassan, brother of King Hussein, addressing the Jordanian National Assembly, 2 February 1970
“Jordan is not just another Arab state with regard to Palestine, but rather, Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan in terms of territory, national identity, sufferings, hopes and aspirations.” -Jordanian Minister of Agriculture, 24 September 1980
As “Palestinian” politician Zouhair Moussein told the Dutch newspaper Trouw in 1977 (Israel Matzav):
“The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people’ to oppose Zionism.
“For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jersusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan. There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity… yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel.”
When discussing this topic, one of the things one should look at is how Arabs describe themselves:
There is no such country as Palestine. ‘Palestine’ is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria. ‘Palestine’ is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it.” – Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, Syrian Arab leader
“There is no such thing as a Palestinian people, there is no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people, Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people.” – Syrian dictator Hafez Assad to the PLO leader Yassir Arafat
“There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not.” – Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian
“It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but Southern Syria.” – Representative of Saudi Arabia at the United Nations
“Palestine and Jordan are one…” -King Abdullah in 1948
“The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan.” – King Hussein of Jordan, in 1981
Jordanians, for decades, were avid proponents of the ‘Jordan is Palestine’ position. They used that position as justification for the annexation of Judea and Samaria, arguing that Palestine was one single, indivisible unit, and that Jordan was the legitimate governing body of Palestine…
“We are the government of Palestine, the army of Palestine and the refugees of Palestine.” -Prime Minister of Jordan, Hazza’ al-Majali, 23 August 1959
“Palestine is Jordan and Jordan is Palestine; there is one people and one land, with one history and one and the same fate.” -Prince Hassan, brother of King Hussein, addressing the Jordanian National Assembly, 2 February 1970
“Jordan is not just another Arab state with regard to Palestine, but rather, Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan in terms of territory, national identity, sufferings, hopes and aspirations.” -Jordanian Minister of Agriculture, 24 September 1980
As “Palestinian” politician Zouhair Moussein told the Dutch newspaper Trouw in 1977 (Israel Matzav):
“The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people’ to oppose Zionism.
“For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jersusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan. There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity… yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel.”
RocketJSquirell
Member
It is also interesting to read what Arabs say about their own origins
palestinians are a myth says hamas member "they are just saudis and egyptians"
startat 1:47
It is eye opening, unless me you already know the facts.
palestinians are a myth says hamas member "they are just saudis and egyptians"
It is eye opening, unless me you already know the facts.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
It seems that you're among the sons of Judah whom were known to be righteous
compared to the sons of Israel and they even named it Israel than Judah.
