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What Do Palestinians Want?

Shusha

Member
If by 'imagine' you are claiming that the oppression is imaginary, then you are in serious denial. If you mean anything else by your caveat then you are just wasting every ones time in an effort to be clever.

There is nothing inherently oppressive about a Jewish homeland. The oppression was imagined FIRST (see #'s 1 and 2). Whether or not oppression exists today is discussable, but if it exists, it is the result of conflict, and not the cause of the conflict.

Edited to add: this doesn't justify it, but it casts it in a different light.
 
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Shusha

Member
I think it is wholly irrelevant to this thread.

Of course, its relevant to this thread. The whole point of this thread is to discuss what Palestinians want. Palestinians BEGIN with the idea that there is NO Jewish connection to the territory and that there is NO Jewish right to a homeland. That is the foundation of the entire conflict. Therefore, any rights or connections which Jews claim are to be rejected and labelled as "oppression". You appear to agree with them. So discuss how, exactly, the concept of a Jewish homeland is to be equated with oppression.
 
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Pastek

Sunni muslim
The article


is long, interesting, and disturbing. But, sadly, its observations are not surprising.

It's too long i don't have time to read it all now but i just saw the big lines.
When it says "When Palestinians look back at sustainedcampaigns of violence, whether in the second intifada or in the three wars with Hamas, they see them as victories, and they tend to believe that armed campaigns are also likely to be effective in the future." It made me think of this :

Hamas : "We won , we won !"
Gaza 164 deaths, Israel 6 deaths

7827.jpg



I don't understand the Hamas.
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
So once again, Plaestinians are being vilified because of their views towards Israel and it's citizens. What the article doesn't cover is the fact that Palestinian views are based on actual day to day experiences that these people go through. First of all the Israeli government doesn't want a Palestinian state as stated by Benjamin Netanyahu during that last elections. This in turn is supported by the fact of growing illegal settlements and illegal land that is continuously taken from Palestinians.

Add the fact that Israel is seeking to imprison minors for stone throwing while it's own terrorists do not ever serve any jail sentence or ever get killed on the spot for killing a Palestinian.

Facts:
1. Israel never has and never will support a Palestinian state, illegal settlements attest to this.
2. The first moment involving violence that arises, Israel cannot but take advantage of the situation and actively seek the killings of young Palestinians, the shoot to kill policy attests to this as it doesn't apply to Jews but only Palestinians, regardless of age.
3. All borders of Palestine are either directly or indirectly controlled by Israel, the fact that Palestinians are not permitted to export their produce outside of Palestine attests to this.

The list goes on and on. Those who have not been to Palestine may not be aware of the walls that Israel erects. If they claim something their own in the middle of a Palestinian town, they will destroy the town, erect tall walls fitted with security cameras to capture any movements near it and build a road to there where only Jews are allowed to go.

Moreover, there is the discrimination on the roads where the number plates of Jewish cars are a different colour to those of Palestinians. Jews almost never get stopped at a check point, while every Palestinian vehicle does and in turn the occupants are intimidated and threatened for hours before they can make their way.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
So once again, Plaestinians are being vilified because of their views towards Israel and it's citizens. What the article doesn't cover is the fact that Palestinian views are based on actual day to day experiences that these people go through.

And when @Akivah writes ...

I've believed that the Palestinians worship and have a love of death.

... he, too, is expressing attitudes based on his experiences. That does not make the despicable stereotype valid. The fact remains
  1. Reporting/analyzing attitudes is not vilification, and vilification was certainly not my intent.
  2. It is absolutely true that these attitudes are enabled by day-to-day experience.
  3. It is also absolutely true that these attitudes owe much to persistent, virulent, and often antisemitic propaganda.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I could go on for days about the things I hear about Israel from people I know in my everyday life, but that wouldn't be very fruitful here. I will just say that I don't think the findings in the article are surprising at all.

It also shouldn't surprise anyone that there is widespread anti-Semitism in a region where most of the population consider a book that contains this passage the perfect, eternal word of God:

Qur'an 5:82 said:
You will surely find the most intense of the people in animosity toward the believers [to be] the Jews and those who associate others with Allah; and you will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers those who say, "We are Christians." That is because among them are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant.

(Source of translation.)

It seems to me that Islam, at least mainstream Islam, is clearly part of the problem. The religiously inspired concept of an exclusive Jewish holy land is also no less conducive to sectarian conflict than the idea that Jerusalem completely belongs to Muslims.
 
So once again, Plaestinians are being vilified because of their views towards Israel and it's citizens. What the article doesn't cover is the fact that Palestinian views are based on actual day to day experiences that these people go through. First of all the Israeli government doesn't want a Palestinian state as stated by Benjamin Netanyahu during that last elections. This in turn is supported by the fact of growing illegal settlements and illegal land that is continuously taken from Palestinians.

Add the fact that Israel is seeking to imprison minors for stone throwing while it's own terrorists do not ever serve any jail sentence or ever get killed on the spot for killing a Palestinian.

Facts:
1. Israel never has and never will support a Palestinian state, illegal settlements attest to this.
2. The first moment involving violence that arises, Israel cannot but take advantage of the situation and actively seek the killings of young Palestinians, the shoot to kill policy attests to this as it doesn't apply to Jews but only Palestinians, regardless of age.
3. All borders of Palestine are either directly or indirectly controlled by Israel, the fact that Palestinians are not permitted to export their produce outside of Palestine attests to this.

The list goes on and on. Those who have not been to Palestine may not be aware of the walls that Israel erects. If they claim something their own in the middle of a Palestinian town, they will destroy the town, erect tall walls fitted with security cameras to capture any movements near it and build a road to there where only Jews are allowed to go.

Moreover, there is the discrimination on the roads where the number plates of Jewish cars are a different colour to those of Palestinians. Jews almost never get stopped at a check point, while every Palestinian vehicle does and in turn the occupants are intimidated and threatened for hours before they can make their way.


Your FACTS are Falsehoods
1. Israel supports a two state solution: That has been official Israeli policy since before the State was re-established. If you do not believe me go to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs site and read for yourself. What you call "settlements" are housing developments built by private people on land they own or lease. All of them,are built on land which is legally Israel. (Please read the treaties and agreements). The "settlements" should be an aid to reaching a political setlement. If the Arab Palestinians actually felt that they were "losing land" they would rush to the negotiation table. As they have been avoiding negotiations they obviously do not see the "settlements" as a problem. Further, it is a racist position that Jews can not live in any portion of any future Arab Palestinian State. Therefore, it is racist to suggest that the settlements - where both Jews and Arabs live - can not be part of a future Arab Palestinian State.
2. Israel is not "taking advantage" of the violence which has "arisen". It is reacting to a planned program of terrorism encouraged, promoted, and directed by the PA and other Arab Palestinian groups. Israel is seeking to protect its citizens and others from attack by terrorists. It is standard police procedure throughout the world to neutralize an assailant. Israel, however, does NOT have a shoot to kill policy. (US and EU police departments do). A person who attacks another with a knife is intent on killing them. It is shameful for you to pretend otherwise. It is shameful that you support murder of civilians.
3. There is no "Palestine". and never had been. There is Jordan - the first Palestinian Arab state (formed out of 70+ % of the designated Jewish Homeland, a designation signed off on by the Arab leadership) Jordan;s borders are not controlled by Israel. There is Gaza. Gaza is an entirely self governing Arab Palestinian entity. It has borders with Israel and Egypt. There is the PA - which is an autonomous area within the legal boundaries of Israel. The Arab Palestinians can and do export their products around the world.

Israelis (Jews and non-Jews) have Israeli license plates on their cars. Arab Palestinians (who do not wish to be Israelis) have PA license plates on their cars. There is no discrimination. It is gioving people what they want. Cars with Israeli license plates are frequently attacked by rock throwers as they drive in Areas C and B. They are not permitted in area A. They are not permitted in Area A because the PA refueses them entry. The discrimination is all by the Arab Palestinians.

Now, can we discuss what the Arab Palestinians want? You know, the total destruction of the State of Israel and the genocide of the Jewish people. If you doubt that, just read the Hamas charter.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Your FACTS are Falsehoods
1. Israel supports a two state solution: That has been official Israeli policy since before the State was re-established. If you do not believe me go to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs site and read for yourself. What you call "settlements" are housing developments built by private people on land they own or lease. All of them,are built on land which is legally Israel. (Please read the treaties and agreements). The "settlements" should be an aid to reaching a political setlement. If the Arab Palestinians actually felt that they were "losing land" they would rush to the negotiation table. As they have been avoiding negotiations they obviously do not see the "settlements" as a problem. Further, it is a racist position that Jews can not live in any portion of any future Arab Palestinian State. Therefore, it is racist to suggest that the settlements - where both Jews and Arabs live - can not be part of a future Arab Palestinian State.
2. Israel is not "taking advantage" of the violence which has "arisen". It is reacting to a planned program of terrorism encouraged, promoted, and directed by the PA and other Arab Palestinian groups. Israel is seeking to protect its citizens and others from attack by terrorists. It is standard police procedure throughout the world to neutralize an assailant. Israel, however, does NOT have a shoot to kill policy. (US and EU police departments do). A person who attacks another with a knife is intent on killing them. It is shameful for you to pretend otherwise. It is shameful that you support murder of civilians.
3. There is no "Palestine". and never had been. There is Jordan - the first Palestinian Arab state (formed out of 70+ % of the designated Jewish Homeland, a designation signed off on by the Arab leadership) Jordan;s borders are not controlled by Israel. There is Gaza. Gaza is an entirely self governing Arab Palestinian entity. It has borders with Israel and Egypt. There is the PA - which is an autonomous area within the legal boundaries of Israel. The Arab Palestinians can and do export their products around the world.

Israelis (Jews and non-Jews) have Israeli license plates on their cars. Arab Palestinians (who do not wish to be Israelis) have PA license plates on their cars. There is no discrimination. It is gioving people what they want. Cars with Israeli license plates are frequently attacked by rock throwers as they drive in Areas C and B. They are not permitted in area A. They are not permitted in Area A because the PA refueses them entry. The discrimination is all by the Arab Palestinians.

Now, can we discuss what the Arab Palestinians want? You know, the total destruction of the State of Israel and the genocide of the Jewish people. If you doubt that, just read the Hamas charter.

Something something idolizing Israel something something.
 

Shusha

Member
So once again, Plaestinians are being vilified because of their views towards Israel and it's citizens. What the article doesn't cover is the fact that Palestinian views are based on actual day to day experiences that these people go through. First of all the Israeli government doesn't want a Palestinian state as stated by Benjamin Netanyahu during that last elections. This in turn is supported by the fact of growing illegal settlements and illegal land that is continuously taken from Palestinians.

Add the fact that Israel is seeking to imprison minors for stone throwing while it's own terrorists do not ever serve any jail sentence or ever get killed on the spot for killing a Palestinian.

Facts:
1. Israel never has and never will support a Palestinian state, illegal settlements attest to this.
2. The first moment involving violence that arises, Israel cannot but take advantage of the situation and actively seek the killings of young Palestinians, the shoot to kill policy attests to this as it doesn't apply to Jews but only Palestinians, regardless of age.
3. All borders of Palestine are either directly or indirectly controlled by Israel, the fact that Palestinians are not permitted to export their produce outside of Palestine attests to this.

The list goes on and on. Those who have not been to Palestine may not be aware of the walls that Israel erects. If they claim something their own in the middle of a Palestinian town, they will destroy the town, erect tall walls fitted with security cameras to capture any movements near it and build a road to there where only Jews are allowed to go.

Moreover, there is the discrimination on the roads where the number plates of Jewish cars are a different colour to those of Palestinians. Jews almost never get stopped at a check point, while every Palestinian vehicle does and in turn the occupants are intimidated and threatened for hours before they can make their way.

Gharib,

Your "facts" are not facts, but simply expressions of the attitudes we are discussing on this thread. Actually, very insightful confirmations of the attitudes in the OP essay.

The first is the attitude that there is such a thing, in reality, as "Palestinian land". There is not. There is no treaty or legal document which assigns a national territory to the State of Palestine (though Israel has always been willing to negotiate one). "Palestinian land" is therefore a concept which exists only in the minds of Palestinians. And, as you saw in the OP, or in my summary of the OP, a majority of Palestinians believe that the entire territory is Palestinian land and that the Jewish people have no rights to it.

The obstacle to peace concerning the settlements are not the settlements themselves. "Settlements" are simply places where Jews buy houses and live. The problem with the settlements is the Palestinian attitude that Palestine must not have any Jewish residents or Jewish citizens and with the Palestinian attitude that Israeli settlements are the vanguard for Israel taking over the entire territory.

The problem with terrorism is obviously the terrorism, but you fail to mention that in your comments. You soften your language by saying "violence arises", indicating the Palestinian attitude that stabbing individual innocent Israeli citizens is legitimate and morally correct and somehow a result of the conflict instead of the cause of it. You then demonstrate the Palestinian attitude that Israel is violent and has evil intentions against Palestinians and for good measure throw in a ancient anti-semitic trope about Jews killing children.

You have also included the Palestinian attitude of oppression and racism when discussing checkpoints, as though the purpose of the checkpoints is oppression.

If we change those underlying attitudes and look at the conflict in a different way, it will become obvious that the conflict is rooted in the pre-existing attitudes of the Palestinians. Try this attitude on: Both the Jewish people and the Palestinian people have inherent, humanitarian rights to national self-determination on the territories in question. The territories are mostly already defined by population. The details of the exact border need to be negotiated, but are broadly already determined. There will be Arab Muslim Palestinians living in Israel and there will be Jewish people living in Palestine once the actual borders are drawn. Once done, there will be an international border between the two nations, with all the resultant and entirely normal checkpoints when crossing to a foreign country. People of different nations will have different licence plates, passports and other identifying documentation.. The murder of innocents must be universally condemned and prevented through all possible means. Holy places must be shared with each religious faith having equal and fair access and the right not to be threatened or bullied.

Look at that. The conflict all but vanishes once the attitudes have changed.
 

Shusha

Member
Something something idolizing Israel something something.

Interesting that you choose to condemn one poster for "idolizing" Israel (even though the post is factual), but fail to condemn another poster for demonizing Israel (even though that post was not so factual).
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Interesting that you choose to condemn one poster for "idolizing" Israel (even though the post is factual), but fail to condemn another poster for demonizing Israel (even though that post was not so factual).

I clearly expressed my opposition to anti-Semitism and demonization of Jews in my first post in this thread. I also expressed opposition to the claim of an exclusive "holy land" whether it be made by Jews or Muslims.

It is not factual that Israel wants a two-state solution. It is not factual that Palestinians want such a solution either. The unfortunate reality is that both sides are unwilling to budge an inch at this point. Neither side wants to compromise, and violence thrives on stubbornness.
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
Let's see if I can do a little summary. The Palestinian majority believes:

1. The Jewish people have no historical connection to the territory.
2. The Jewish people have no rights to a homeland or sovereignty on any of the territory.
3. Israel is the main source of all Palestinian problems.
4. Israel intends to take over all of the territory in question and ethnically cleanse the territory of all non-Jews.
5. Israel intends to destroy al Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock.
6. Israelis are, generally, violent and untrustworthy, but clever and strong.
7. Judaism is the most violent of religions.
8. Attacks on Israeli civilians are not "terrorism" and are morally correct actions in defense of Islam and/or political goals.
9. Attacks on Israeli civilians are effective in achieving political goals.
10. Attacks on Israeli civilians are praiseworthy and should be celebrated.

This is an accurate listing of persistent Palestinian beliefs. The discussion on this thread should be about these.

The conclusion that I get is that what the Palestinians want is to murder every Jew in Israel. Is that not blood-thirsty?
 

Shusha

Member
It is not factual that Israel wants a two-state solution.

I disagree. The only thing that is giving Israel even a hint of hesitation about a two state solution is security concerns. Israel would sign an end of conflict agreement and recognize Palestine in a heartbeat IF the Palestinian attitudes changed enough to allow that. Why would Israel not?
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
I clearly expressed my opposition to anti-Semitism and demonization of Jews in my first post in this thread. I also expressed opposition to the claim of an exclusive "holy land" whether it be made by Jews or Muslims.

It is not factual that Israel wants a two-state solution. It is not factual that Palestinians want such a solution either. The unfortunate reality is that both sides are unwilling to budge an inch at this point. Neither side wants to compromise, and violence thrives on stubbornness.
I'm not sure I can disagree with the statement that Israel doesn't want a two-state solution. At least I don't. But on the other hand, if the other theoretical state's attainment of open borders would increase my risk of death (as the linked article suggests it would), would I be wise to want them to gain control over their borders?
 
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