What do you feel is wrong with atheism?

[logician]

This universe is awe made incarnate. Everything in it is so thoroughly complex - and at our current state - far beyond our understanding.

Our earth and conscious life therein: that is a miracle above all miracles. How do you make a solution of chemicals question its own existence?

The odds of a creator not existing far outweigh the converse in my opinion.

For life; much less than the universe itself; to have come about without conscious design is inherently ludicrous.

God needn't be the typical theistic entity, either. Reverence to a force far beyond ones control, responsible for the existence of everything. That could very well be a belief system also.

I'm not trying to be overly critical - but for Atheists to blatantly disagree with even that is a baseless presumption. You can't disprove God's existense unless you are a God yourself and know exactly how the universe has been unfolding. There's no logic underpinning such a "belief" that no God exists or ever has. That is somewhat hypocritical for the most part; since some, if not most Atheists, critique religion for basless beliefs.

But I'll reiterate what I've said before. There's nothing wrong with Atheism. It's a belief system, just like any other, and people have an inalienable right to adhere to it.

Your view is fallacious, as you cannot counter the argument "who designed the designer?"

 

[idea]

So, what about the people who have "felt the presence" of different gods, or other things that they didn't consider gods but have the same feeling or effect? They're sure of their gods, just like you are of yours. Which one of you is right?

Anyone, no matter what religion they belong to, can feel the Holy Spirit if they have found some piece of the truth, or need comfort, or need answers. I only know what I have experienced, so cannot vouch for others... I understand that the Holy Spirit is not the only one out there… to know which is which? By their fruits ye shall know them. We are each given a conscious, the light of Christ, by which we know what is right and what is wrong… I suppose you can justify things to yourself for long enough that you can suppress your conscious, but if we are honest with our self and not afraid of personal sacrifices, we can admit what is right, and be led into the light.

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.
18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.
19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.

My guess is that most people didn't experience what you experienced.

13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.
14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

 

[Magic Man]

Anyone, no matter what religion they belong to, can feel the Holy Spirit if they have found some piece of the truth, or need comfort, or need answers. I only know what I have experienced, so cannot vouch for others... I understand that the Holy Spirit is not the only one out there… to know which is which? By their fruits ye shall know them. We are each given a conscious, the light of Christ, by which we know what is right and what is wrong… I suppose you can justify things to yourself for long enough that you can suppress your conscious, but if we are honest with our self and not afraid of personal sacrifices, we can admit what is right, and be led into the light.

My point was you call it the Holy Spirit, others call it something else. They don't believe it has anything to do with Christ or your God. So, how do I know you're right, and they're wrong? You feel what you feel, but the reason you call it the Holy Spirit is because that idea was already implanted in your head. Someone else has a different idea pre-existing in their head, so they feel the same thing, but call it something different. I don't have your pre-conceived notion in my head already, so even if I feel that same feeling, I realize that it's not your "Holy Spirit", but something else.

 

[idea]

.... so even if I feel that same feeling....

have you had that same feeling?

 

[Magic Man]

have you had that same feeling?

Yup..

 

[camanintx]

To prove God does not exist you have to be able to to observe the entire universe throughout all time to say "He is not here, He is not there" - ie - you have to become a God to prove there is no God.

Do I have to observe the entire universe throughout all time to say that there is no such thing as a square circle?

 

[McBell]

To prove God does not exist you have to be able to to observe the entire universe throughout all time to say "He is not here, He is not there" - ie - you have to become a God to prove there is no God. You cannot prove there is no God, define God how you will - you cannot prove that there is no higher life form out there, and so athiesm is a belief...

Nor can you prove that any god exists, let alone the one you worship.

 

[logician]

"you cannot prove that there is no higher life form out there"

This is a lot different statement than proving there is no god, it is very likely there are more intelligent life forms out there, very unlikely that some deity or deities exist.

 

[Alceste]

This is true...Its funny you said this today..Yesterday I was "counseling" my brother and his grilfriend over the phone..They called and were in a screaming fight and and my brother wanted a "mediator" apparrently..Among many things they brought up one of his problems was she whines and complains about him beign a slob and the division of houswork and chores..He reminded her he mows the lawn but he also said even though he mows it she will nag at him about that even if starts to get to tall..She made him feel as if she was telling him what to do and that made him not want to mow it....Long story longer she said "well what am I supposed to do when I see it needs mowed".....I said since you know full good and well that he is already aware it needs done. and its his respsoniblilty..just have "faith" in him that he will get to it sooner or later and that he's just been busy..
That "faith' has zero to do with religion..Unless you want to include relationships as a type of religion...Hey! Thats a good topic!!! LOL!

Even though you will have to admit..Faith can be and is applied to people their religions.Its quite a big part of it..

Blessings

Dallas

Just going to butt in here and suggest your brother and his girlfriend try to hone their communication skills. There are tips on the internet - I know it's all tough to remember in a heated moment, but sounds like they've got some problems communicating.

Come to think of it, all those tips would be handy in the forum as well.

 

[Alceste]

My point was you call it the Holy Spirit, others call it something else. They don't believe it has anything to do with Christ or your God. So, how do I know you're right, and they're wrong? You feel what you feel, but the reason you call it the Holy Spirit is because that idea was already implanted in your head. Someone else has a different idea pre-existing in their head, so they feel the same thing, but call it something different. I don't have your pre-conceived notion in my head already, so even if I feel that same feeling, I realize that it's not your "Holy Spirit", but something else.

This is one of those things where there are a lot of ways to be "right", and ten times as many ways to be "wrong". If you are feeling spiritual peace / bliss / warmth / clarity / belonging etc., you're doing it right. If you aren't getting "that feeling" (and I don't mean a whisper of comfort, I mean a perspective-shifting experience of completeness) you're doing it wrong. If you're getting it, you're doing it right regardless of your approach.

Then again, some ways are perhaps more effective than others, and many, many ways seem to have lost sight of this goal.

Oh, yeah, and I agree with your point. It has nothing to do with Christ or God, but I'm OK with the handful of Christians I've read about who have experienced "that feeling" defining it in these terms as long as they don't insist their definition is the ONLY possible interpretation of those feelings. Then again, those who have felt it usually don't.

 

[Magic Man]

Oh, yeah, and I agree with your point. It has nothing to do with Christ or God, but I'm OK with the handful of Christians I've read about who have experienced "that feeling" defining it in these terms as long as they don't insist their definition is the ONLY possible interpretation of those feelings. Then again, those who have felt it usually don't.

This last sentence is the heart of it. I'm also OK with Christians who've experienced tha feeling defining it in those terms. The problem is the times such as this one, when they do insist that theirs is the only possible interpretation.

 

[idea]

Yup..

......

Do I have to observe the entire universe throughout all time to say that there is no such thing as a square circle?

Nor can you prove that any god exists, let alone the one you worship.

by design - we are given agency to believe or not.​

 

[Alceste]

This last sentence is the heart of it. I'm also OK with Christians who've experienced tha feeling defining it in those terms. The problem is the times such as this one, when they do insist that theirs is the only possible interpretation.

I haven't met any awakened Christians who insist theirs is the only possible interpretation. Granted, this could be because the need to convince others your way is the right way is one of the factors which makes me discount the possibility someone is awake...

In my limited experience with those who insist, I've found them lacking in the clarity of mind I think is necessary in order to experience spiritual euphoria. I have read a few excerpts of writing from Christian writers who are awake - the majority have been from monks and nuns, who have a lot of time for contemplation. Jesuits are pretty good too, I understand.

 

[DarkSun]

Your view is fallacious, as you cannot counter the argument "who designed the designer?"

The Creator was intelligent enough to create the cosmos we live in.

Well, maybe He created himself?

I understand that the same argument applies to the concept of the universe actually spawning itself from nothing. The converse is true, also.

But if it did that without conscious design, then I highly doubt that it would have turned out as arcane as it currently is. This universe is pure awe. Having studied it since the beginning of consciousness, we still know next to nothing. And for existence itself to have come about without design just seems so improbable to me, that the odds of some creator's inexistence seems ludicrous.

My view is that a Creator exists. You can believe otherwise, but I couldn't care less.

 

[Smoke]

Agnostics I am fine with - but athiests who claim to know 100% that there is no God... To prove God does not exist you have to be able to to observe the entire universe throughout all time to say "He is not here, He is not there" - ie - you have to become a God to prove there is no God. You cannot prove there is no God, define God how you will - you cannot prove that there is no higher life form out there, and so athiesm is a belief...

One day at the playground, Dick learned that Jane didn't believe in Santa Claus. He was very upset.

"You mean," he said, "you don't know if there's a Santa Claus."

"No," said Jane. "I'm sure. It's your parents."

"My parents!" said Dick. "My parents say Santa brings my gifts! Are you calling my parents liars? Besides, that, I feel it in my heart that Santa is true! Whenever I think about Santa, I feel so happy and peaceful. If you believed in Santa, you'd be happy and peaceful, too."

"I'm happy and peaceful," said Jane. "I still get Christmas gifts, you know, and my parents still take care of me. I just don't bring Santa into it."

"But you can't prove Santa is just your parents. And even if Santa doesn't come to your house, I know he comes to my house. I know for sure."

"You're just kidding yourself," said Jane.

"I could understand it if you said you weren't sure," he said, "but how can you say there is no Santa Claus?" You can't prove there is no Santa Claus! To prove there is no Santa Claus, you would have to watch every house in the world on Christmas Eve and be able to observe that Santa never visited any of them. You would have to be God to prove there's no Santa Claus! So your disbelief in Santa Claus is a belief!

"Not really," said Jane. "My disbelief is disbelief. You seem a little confused."

"But if you don't believe," said Dick, "you believe not. Therefore you believe." Dick smiled triumphantly.

"Okay," said Jane, "you not only believe in Santa Claus, you also believe that disbelief is belief. Have you ever thought of making an appointment with the school counselor?"

Dick scowled. "That's what I hate about people who don't believe in Santa -- I mean, people who believe in not-Santa! You're always so smug and condescending."

"Your arguments kind of invite it," said Jane. "But I didn't mean to upset you. If you want to believe that my disbelief is a belief, it's no skin off my back."

"But you should believe in Santa!" cried Dick. "If you can't believe in Santa, you should at least say you don't know!"

"Why would that make you feel better?" asked Jane. "Either way, I don't believe in Santa."

"But you should not be sure!" said Dick.

"You're sure," said Jane. "Listen, I think I hear my mother calling me."

"But I'm right! It's okay to be sure if you believe."

"According to you, I do believe," said Jane. "Look, I'll see you around, okay?"

"I'm going to ask Santa to reveal himself to you," said Dick.

"Fine. You do that. 'Bye."

athiesm seems like "stuberness for just not wanting to believe in a god" to me...

Does it also seem to you that Christianity is just a stubborn refusal to believe in Vishnu?

question for athiests - why not just be agnostic?

Since you can't prove there is a god, why don't you just be agnostic?

 

[camanintx]

The Creator was intelligent enough to create the cosmos we live in.

Well, maybe He created himself?

I understand that the same argument applies to the concept of the universe actually spawning itself from nothing. The converse is true, also.

But if it did that without conscious design, then I highly doubt that it would have turned out as arcane as it currently is. This universe is pure awe. Having studied it since the beginning of consciousness, we still know next to nothing. And for existence itself to have come about without design just seems so improbable to me, that the odds of some creator's inexistence seems ludicrous.

My view is that a Creator exists. You can believe otherwise, but I couldn't care less.

You think it is improbable that this universe could have come to be without design, yet you have no problem believing that something capable of creating this universe could exist without design.

When considering the origins of our universe, the complexity of anything preceding it could either be greater, equal to, or less than the complexity of the universe itself. If the improbability of our universe is proportional to its complexity, then how improbable would a conscious creator capable of creating the universe be?

Since we don't have any information about how this universe may have come to be or what may have preceded it, we can only estimate its complexity by extrapolating from the information we do have. If experience consistently shows that systems progress from the simple to the complex, doesn't it make more sense to assume a simpler origin than a complex one?

 

[gnostic]

I have no problem with the atheist's stance or view that there is no god, because the concept is quite valid one. There is nothing wrong with this concept.

There are lack of real evidences that god created this world and universe. The simple absence of god's participation in our daily life is proof that god don't exist. God only exist so far in belief, teaching and in books, but that's not good enough.

So far we can't prove god. We only have relative few who said they have seen or talk to god, eg. prophets, but how do we prove they have spoken the truth. They seem to be no better than other mythmakers - non-Abrahamic priests, poets, etc.

Until there is something that everyone can see, hear and talk to, then the existence of god is based solely on belief and faith, and that's not evidence to validate their claims.

 

[yousaf]

a famous scientist once said: small knowledge of science makes one a athiest but indepth knowledge of science makes one a believer of god. for their to be a creation there must be a creator

 

[camanintx]

a famous scientist once said: small knowledge of science makes one a athiest but indepth knowledge of science makes one a believer of god. for their to be a creation there must be a creator

But does the creator have to be a conscious, intelligent agent? Nature is replete with examples of simple, natural forces creating amazing things.

 

[Nessa Nenharma]

I don't think there is anything wrong with atheism. While some of us choose to believe in the power of a Supreme being, it is only natural that some choose not to believe.

Once we stop questioning, we stop learning!