What do you feel is wrong with Islam?

[Popeyesays]

I said, and Kai commented:

"
Originally Posted by Popeyesays
They do not reflect upon Muhammed OR the Qur'an. THAT is Islam. The Pharisees when they manuevered the Romans to execute Christ did NOT refelect upon Moses and the Torah. then how come jews have been persecuted by christians ever since -- Actually it was not ever since. Persecution did not really start until the first Crusade when travelling bands of crusaders traveling through Germany and Austria stopped along the way to loot and pillage Jewish villages and trading centers. Jews were the primary means for trade between the Islamic world and the Christian world and that role was respected. Once the Crusades began, Christendom was willing to "cut out the middle man". The new economic reality for Jewish people was to become pawnbrokers and money lenders--positions which engendered more persecution by folks who were too deeply in debt and found it more practical to ruin, imprison or eradicate the people who were floating the note.

One cannot hold the Prophet and the Book responsible for the actions of deluded followers. It is not the fault of the religion that some followers are deluded. even when they are religiously deluded ? I truly doubt the instigators were religiously deluded. Rather they are using others delusions to manipulate those others and provide the manipulators with economic, political and social power.

We do not need to make religion a monster. We humans create more than enough self-made monsters to fill all requisitions. yes we have created religious maniacs People will be maniacs for many reasons. Hitler was a racist maniac for instance.

Your attitude makes you a modern Ned Ludd. After all, ignorance is as ignorance does. Ned Ludd was an 18th century hero, with no historical evidence for his existance Well, other such heros include Jack the Ripper, Charlie Manson, etc.. They are not famous, they are infamous. You'll notice that the textile oindustry remains automated, Ned Ludd was infamously unsuccessful.



My regards back atcha,

Scott

 

[England my lionheart]

They do not reflect upon Muhammed OR the Qur'an. THAT is Islam. The Pharisees when they manuevered the Romans to execute Christ did NOT refelect upon Moses and the Torah.

One cannot hold the Prophet and the Book responsible for the actions of deluded followers. It is not the fault of the religion that some followers are deluded.

We do not need to make religion a monster. We humans create more than enough self-made monsters to fill all requisitions.

Your attitude makes you a modern Ned Ludd. After all, ignorance is as ignorance does.

Not a lot of regards left,

Scott

Religion is a monster some more than others,you have one thing right i am modern unlike religions that live in the past,ned ludd? i dont think so and if i am ignorant then you are blind.

 

[doppelganger]

Essentially it's this: Sufis believe that one can become "One with God" to the point that they join GOD. This is the objection that Shi'ih and Sunni make most often. Baha`i's would stipulate that as misguided as well.

This is why I consider Baha'i, as with any other institutionalized religion, to also be its own antithesis.

 

[Popeyesays]

Religion is a monster some more than others,you have one thing right i am modern unlike religions that live in the past,ned ludd? i dont think so and if i am ignorant then you are blind.

I have to ask, are you surprised that your children have rejected religion? Do you really think you provided them an unbiased choice in their education?

Regards,
Scott

 

[England my lionheart]

Actually the yes answer is the good one!

As a matter of fact, we muslims would like to see ourselves just like muslims 700 yeats ago, i.e. contributing to the humanity..

Ok lets look at the islamic religions contribution to humanity,an up to date one is a news topic ,check it out,thousands of palestinians pouring into egypt from gaza to buy food.
The trouble with the islamic and other abrahamic religions is none of them see the problem,all religions have been guilty of this but this thread is about islam.

 

[Popeyesays]

This is why I consider Baha'i, as with any other institutionalized religion, to also be its own antithesis.

It's an antithesis ONLY if you stipulate that the Great Prophets are men with the same limitations that other men have.

There are several kingdoms of Creation: mineral, vegetable, animal, human, the kingdom of the Manifestation. God, Itself is not part of Creation and therefore NOT a kingdom.

I know we differ on this, but we can differ and still respect each other, which is what I appreciate about you most.

Regards,
Scott

 

[kai]

oh it goes a long way further back than that
http://www.ushmm.org/research/center/church/persecution/persecution.pdf

 

[doppelganger]

I know we differ on this, but we can differ and still respect each other, which is what I appreciate about you most.

Yes, I do appreciate our conversations. I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't singling out Islam as being uniquely problematic in my opinion among religious systems. Though I will say that of all the different religious frames of reference I've explored (and that's a pretty fair number), among the "Abrahamic" religions, the Spirit of the revelation remains most intact in the doctrines and teachings of the Baha'i.

 

[Popeyesays]

Your source admits that the first six hundred years its impossible to find any real evidence of organized persecution except at the hands of the pagan Roman state.

It also says this:
"The closest to which this murderous decision (mass expulsions) came was the successive expulsions of the Jews in the Middle Ages: first from France in the early thirteenth century, then England in 1290."9op cit, p. 7--my parenthetical comment for reference.)

Essentially the Christians were more concerned with punishing "heretics" within their own ranks to organize against Judaism.

Regards,

Scott

 

[Autodidact]

Because you are trying to tar Islam with a brush that tars every other religion at the same time. But the brush doesn't succeed in tarring anything because it is bald of bristles.

Regards,

Scott

Certainly, Christianity's history is about as bloody and anti-enlightenment as Islam's. Remember, the OP was asking what we don't like about Islam. Turns out that anything we don't like "isn't real Islam." It's classic No True Scotsman. So "real Islam" is perfect, but doesn't exist. Fake Islam has lots of problems, and is the only Islam that actually exists.

 

[Autodidact]

Well, in the case of the extremist mullaheen and imams, yes they are paranoid and hate-addled nutbags. That does not reflect upon Islam, though, just the power tactics of those aforementioned hate-addled nutbags.

Regards,
Scott

Kinda handy for religions, how everything their followers do in their name doesn't reflect on the religions.

Actually, a religion is nothing but the beliefs and actions of its followers, so what clerics do to further and in the name of their religion not only reflects on that religion; it is that religion.

 

[Autodidact]

Actually it is tragic for civilization--all of us everywhere. But it is a human crime, and not God-inspired.

Regards,
Scott

Of course it's not God inspired; there is no God. It is however, inspired by the adherent's beliefs about God, which is what religion is.

 

[Autodidact]

Actually the yes answer is the good one!

As a matter of fact, we muslims would like to see ourselves just like muslims 700 yeats ago, i.e. contributing to the humanity..

Ding! And there's another thing I don't like about Islam: a deliberate opposition to progress. I would NOT like to go back in time 700 years, thank you very much.

 

[Autodidact]

Your source admits that the first six hundred years its impossible to find any real evidence of organized persecution except at the hands of the pagan Roman state.

It also says this:
"The closest to which this murderous decision (mass expulsions) came was the successive expulsions of the Jews in the Middle Ages: first from France in the early thirteenth century, then England in 1290."9op cit, p. 7--my parenthetical comment for reference.)

Essentially the Christians were more concerned with punishing "heretics" within their own ranks to organize against Judaism.

Regards,

Scott

And yet they managed to murder thousands of us, all in the name of their beloved Lord Jesus.

 

[England my lionheart]

I have to ask, are you surprised that your children have rejected religion? Do you really think you provided them an unbiased choice in their education?

Regards,
Scott

Yes i can and they have learned about about all religions as its part of the educational curriculum.

 

[England my lionheart]

I must tell you this,it has just been on the news,a childrens book which is based on the three little pigs nursery story has been taken out of a competition as it may be offensive to muslims,its sad as it is an old story and quite harmless.

 

[Autodidact]

Here's what I mean about No True Scotsman fallacy:

OP: "America is a great nation that has never done anything wrong. If you think America has ever done anything wrong, please respond so I can clarify."
RESPONSE: Well, how about when they rounded up all those Japanese-Americans and put them in internment camps in WW II?
OP: That clearly violated the U.S. Constitution and so was un-American. True America is not responsible for that; it was just the misled leaders at the time.
RESPONSE: What about that whole slavery thing?
OP: Obviously that was counter to the whole spirit and purpose of American equality, so was not really American. True America is not responsible for slavery; true America fought the Civil War to free the slaves so we could have the equality we enjoy today. America is about freedom, not slavery.

etc. See my point? If the actions of the American government, taken on behalf of the American people, are not American, what is? If the actions of the Islamic authorities, taken on behalf of Islam, are not Islamic, what is?

 

[Popeyesays]

Here's what I mean about No True Scotsman fallacy:

OP: "America is a great nation that has never done anything wrong. If you think America has ever done anything wrong, please respond so I can clarify."
RESPONSE: Well, how about when they rounded up all those Japanese-Americans and put them in internment camps in WW II?
OP: That clearly violated the U.S. Constitution and so was un-American. True America is not responsible for that; it was just the misled leaders at the time.
RESPONSE: What about that whole slavery thing?
OP: Obviously that was counter to the whole spirit and purpose of American equality, so was not really American. True America is not responsible for slavery; true America fought the Civil War to free the slaves so we could have the equality we enjoy today. America is about freedom, not slavery.

etc. See my point? If the actions of the American government, taken on behalf of the American people, are not American, what is? If the actions of the Islamic authorities, taken on behalf of Islam, are not Islamic, what is?

The American government is not religious in nature. I'd accuse you of comparing apples to oranges if you weren't already comparing apples to stones.

Regards,

Scott

 

[YmirGF]

It's classic No True Scotsman. So "real Islam" is perfect, but doesn't exist. Fake Islam has lots of problems, and is the only Islam that actually exists.

This is an aspect that has puzzled me from the start of my discussions with Muslims. Whenever any idea is mentioned, even with support material, it is standard practise to negate the source and therefore the commentary. The absolute best one can hope for when voicing a negative opinion about Islam is that you will be told that you have misunderstood something.

I also find it fascinating how the members on RF very conveniently reflect the "real" Islam. It is said that "by their fruits you shall know them", but so often the "fruit" held up, as pristine and unblemished, seems terribly wanting.

For example, even the idea of Prophetic lineage is suspect, as it is all too easy for one to claim to be such, as long as one sticks to the prefabricated script. Muslims are very serious about Prophet Muhammed [pbuh] being the "final" Prophet and yet Baha's attempt to redefine this widely accepted understanding to shoehorn their founders into the succession. Again, all one needs do is stick to the script and not vary too significantly from what come before. I say this "lineage" is suspect, because it is not like the forerunners can comment on the allegations and claims of the current "Prophet".

If indeed there is a succession of "Prophets", sent by a loving god, then it seems that they have not done an especially good job. I may be silly, among many other less than polite adjectives, but if I were god, I would imbue my "Prophet" with indelible evidence of my existence. That would certainly serve to underscore the importance and authority of that particular "Prophet", at least to my thinking. At least then we wouldn't simply get yet another book that we can all argue over.

 

[Popeyesays]

Yes i can and they have learned about about all religions as its part of the educational curriculum.

Perhaps, but irreligion is part of their parental role model.

Regards,
Scott