What do you feel is wrong with Islam?

[England my lionheart]

Actually, the Qur'an was recited by ONLY Muhammed. Stenographers took down the recitation, and memorized the verses, reciting them to each other and Muhammed to make sure they had the Surahs right.

The Qur'an was not written by a group of men at all. In fact in its original form it was not written at all. Muslims will tell you patiently that Muhammed did not originate the Qur'an, it is the word of God conducted by the Angel Gabriel directly to Muhammed's ear.

The hadith are a different matter. The hadith are "SAYINGS" from Muhammed that were NOT directly from God. They are conversations, stories, commentaries from Muhammed to various of His companions. In order to make the compilation of hadith, they had to be repeated by several different companions in essentially the same form.

But the hadith are not scripture.

THe reason the SUnni and the SHi'ih differ is because of discord over the succession of Muhammed. Sunni follow the Caliphate, and the Shi'ih consider the Caliphate to be an invention of men. The schism became set when the grandson of Muhammed, Husayn was assassinated.

So the major schism in Islam is not over ANYTHING in the Qur'an.

I have the impression that your research is all fresh, and limited to the internet.

Research requires rumination and thought. THe internet has many good things but also large bucketloads of horse manure masquerading as information. Pick up a bloody book from time to time, books that challenge your preconceptions and don't feed a growing prejudice.

I recommend for a start Muhammed and the Course of Islam, by H. M. Balyuzi. Mr. Balyuzi was not a muslim, and his books is symapthetic to Muhammed but is not blinded by being a religious follower of Islam.

Amazon.com: Muhammad and the Course of Islam: Books: H.M. Balyuzi

Also An Introduction to Shi`i Islam: The History and Doctrines of Twelver Shi`ism (Paperback), Moojan Momen.
Amazon.com: An Introduction to Shi`i Islam: The History and Doctrines of Twelver Shi`ism: Books: Moojan Momen

Also: Islam a SHort History, by Karen Armstrong.
Amazon.com: Islam: A Short History (Modern Library Chronicles): Books: Karen Armstrong

After you've done some research in even-handed sources, visit a Mosque, talk to the local Imam. But visit several so you get some rounded experience.

Regards,

Scott

OK so islam online is'nt worth looking at in your opinion strange as earlier in this thread it was recomended to me,and what proof is there that the Angel spoke to muhamed well thats simple as i have asked a muslim before face to face and they had none only their faith.
To myself and others it looks like a re write as there are simmilarities with the torah and obviously the Bible.
Let me put this to you,if your neighbour came to you and said "amazing,i've just been visited by an angel and he has told me i am a prophet" how likely are you to believe him?.

 

[Popeyesays]

OK so islam online is'nt worth looking at in your opinion strange as earlier in this thread it was recomended to me,and what proof is there that the Angel spoke to muhamed well thats simple as i have asked a muslim before face to face and they had none only their faith.
To myself and others it looks like a re write as there are simmilarities with the torah and obviously the Bible.
Let me put this to you,if your neighbour came to you and said "amazing,i've just been visited by an angel and he has told me i am a prophet" how likely are you to believe him?.

Jesus faced that problem in Nazareth, and the Gospel makes the note that a Prophet is never honored in His own country.

Seriously, if I were not a Baha`i (since Baha`u'llah says there will not be another Manifestation of God until a full one thousand has passed) and I were faced with such a claim I would be dubious.

But Muhammed convinced some of His family and neighbors that He was indeed a Prophet even facing skepticism. His enemies drove Him out of Mecca with threats of death and His original companions followed Him out in the desert to seek refuge in Medina.

What happened in Medina when the people heard the claim? He was welcomed with open arms and the majority of the Medinites accepted the claim and were loyal Muslims, even when faced with brutal attacks by the Meccans. Even those in Medina who did not follow Him (a small Jewish community), those Jewish clans accepted a treaty with the Muslims.

So, what is the proof a Prophet can provide?

"XX. Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: "Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise." He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 49)

my own emphasis added.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

Muhammed could not have cribbed from the Bible or the Torah. He was illiterate and could not read.

Regards,
Scott

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Let me put this to you,if your neighbour came to you and said "amazing,i've just been visited by an angel and he has told me i am a prophet" how likely are you to believe him?.

Even his wife Khadijah and close friend Abu Bakr, questioned him. Muhammad himself questioned his own sanity before even bringing it to the attention of his loved ones. To me it is the sign of sanity, not insanity or instability, that he would think to question that. I mean I would question my own mind if I saw an "angel" in the sky that wanted to talk to me. It took some time for Muhammad (saw) to come to terms with the vision and only after having actual contact with it did it sink in that it was real and not a figment of his imagination. His long-standing reputation of trustworthiness, thoughtfulness, and having not been a follower of previous polytheistic practices of his time, all lent to the truthfulness of his account with his wife and friends, and other family members. Of course their first reaction was to wonder if he indeed had lost his mind, but as he did not seem afflicted in any other aspect of his life by mental illness, that became less of a possibility. Had they believed he was lying or crazy I do not believe for a second that they would have allowed all the subsequent hardships that followed under the pretense of a known lie, or to placate a crazy person. Muhammad (saw) himself and those with him suffered too much death and hardship, and persecution at the hands of their own tribes to make me believe that it was a game to them or a ruse of some kind.

 

[England my lionheart]

OK earlier scriptures the torah and dead sea scrolls etc were obviously older than the qur'an and contained the same names Abraham etc and even share the same stories soddam and gamorah for example yet we are told these earlier scriptures are not correct.
And we are also told that Jesus is'nt the son of God and is just a prophet, it is'nt uncommon in those days for people to be illiterate so the fact that muhamed could not write is hardly surprising and most news was passed on verbally.
So the Torah,Bible and the Qur'an all share the same players and all have a different role for Jesus
so my point is although muhamed could not write would'nt he have knowledge of judaism as word of mouth was all that many had,and this would explain the differences and every time someone passed the stories on it changed a little until it became a lot.

 

[England my lionheart]

Muhammed could not have cribbed from the Bible or the Torah. He was illiterate and could not read.

Regards,
Scott

OK but he would have knowledge of judaism would'nt he because a lot of people could'nt read and would find things out verbally.

 

[~Amin~]

muslims=yes,is the qur'an ambiguous=yes

Thus does God make CLEAR to you
His VERSES that you may use reason. Qur'an

Thus does God make clear to you His VERSES
that you may be guided. Qur'an 3, 103.

This Qur'an is a CLEAR statement to the people
and a guidance, and instruction for those conscious
of God. Qur'an 3,138.

So if they deny you, so were messengers denied
before you, who brought CLEAR proofs and written ordinances
and the enlightening scripture. Qur'an 3,184.

So please dont tell us the Qur'an is not CLEAR.

 

[Popeyesays]

OK but he would have knowledge of judaism would'nt he because a lot of people could'nt read and would find things out verbally.

He was a merchant, you know. The manager and chief caravan operator for merchant houses in Mecca. therefore talking and listening would be part of His stock in trade. He was not however, a Jew or a Christian, or Zoroastrian.

In any event, I HAVE read the Qur'an, the TaNakh and the Gospel. I don't find a lot of familiarity. nor repetition. Following your reasoning one would have to think that Gospel is just an imitation of the Torah, the Prophets and the Writings contained in the TaNakh.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

OK earlier scriptures the torah and dead sea scrolls etc were obviously older than the qur'an and contained the same names Abraham etc and even share the same stories soddam and gamorah for example yet we are told these earlier scriptures are not correct.
And we are also told that Jesus is'nt the son of God and is just a prophet, it is'nt uncommon in those days for people to be illiterate so the fact that muhamed could not write is hardly surprising and most news was passed on verbally.
So the Torah,Bible and the Qur'an all share the same players and all have a different role for Jesus
so my point is although muhamed could not write would'nt he have knowledge of judaism as word of mouth was all that many had,and this would explain the differences and every time someone passed the stories on it changed a little until it became a lot.

Are you aware of what the Qiblih in Mecca was before Muhammed? It was the temple full of idols that Abraham went into and smashed all the idols.

Abraham was the founding father of Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Islam and Baha`i. Islam believes that there is an uninterrupted chain of Prophets beginning with Abraham and endinging with Muhammed.

The stories of Abraham and Moses are the stories of the ancestors of the Arabs. Yet you balk at a common thread of Prophets and Prophetic writings. That's kind of silly, is it not?

Regards,
Scott

 

[doppelganger]

Abraham was the founding father of Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Islam and Baha`i. Islam believes that there is an uninterrupted chain of Prophets beginning with Abraham and endinging with Muhammed.

One of these things is not like the others.

 

[Popeyesays]

One of these things is not like the others.

Actually, Zoroaster was a descendant of Abraham, through Katurah. I do appreciate the Sesame Street allusion.

Regards,

Scott

 

[doppelganger]

Actually, Zoroaster was a descendant of Abraham, through Katurah. I do appreciate the Sesame Street allusion.

Regards,

Scott

Source? I've never heard this before (and I know a thing or two about Zoroastrianism). Not to say I think it's untrue. I've just never heard that claim before.

 

[England my lionheart]

He was a merchant, you know. The manager and chief caravan operator for merchant houses in Mecca. therefore talking and listening would be part of His stock in trade. He was not however, a Jew or a Christian, or Zoroastrian.

In any event, I HAVE read the Qur'an, the TaNakh and the Gospel. I don't find a lot of familiarity. nor repetition. Following your reasoning one would have to think that Gospel is just an imitation of the Torah, the Prophets and the Writings contained in the TaNakh.

Regards,
Scott

Well yes it is

 

[Popeyesays]

Source? I've never heard this before (and I know a thing or two about Zoroastrianism). Not to say I think it's untrue. I've just never heard that claim before.

http://bahai-library.com/file.php5?file=zinky_genealogy_prophets&language=All

Sorry, I can't seem to be able to get the image to transfer, so there's the link.

According to the credits the document was typed by a long-time friend of mine, Will Sutter--who passed away about six years ago. I never knew he did that.

Regards,
Scott

 

[England my lionheart]

Are you aware of what the Qiblih in Mecca was before Muhammed? It was the temple full of idols that Abraham went into and smashed all the idols.

Abraham was the founding father of Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Islam and Baha`i. Islam believes that there is an uninterrupted chain of Prophets beginning with Abraham and endinging with Muhammed.

The stories of Abraham and Moses are the stories of the ancestors of the Arabs. Yet you balk at a common thread of Prophets and Prophetic writings. That's kind of silly, is it not?

Regards,
Scott

No actually its not silly at all but the silly bit is there was a chain of prophets ending with muhamed and where does zoro come into it and did Abraham appear in the Torah first or the qu'an first,erm i don't think thats a hard one to answer do you.
Regards

 

[doppelganger]

http://bahai-library.com/file.php5?file=zinky_genealogy_prophets&language=All

So this is a Baha'i thing? I've never encountered it in any academic or historical treatment of Zorastrianism before, though I've seen theories about the relationship between Ahura Mazda and Yahweh and Abraham-Brahman (India). I recall Voltaire even theorizing that Abraham and Zoroaster were the same person.

That's a link to your hard-drive.

 

[Popeyesays]

So this is a Baha'i thing? I've never encountered it in any academic or historical treatment of Zorastrianism before, though I've seen theories about the relationship between Ahura Mazda and Yahweh and Abraham-Brahman (India). I recall Voltaire even theorizing that Abraham and Zoroaster were the same person.

And I've seen Immanuel Velikhovsky's book about the Exodus, Moses and Akhnaton, too.

I think one rarely comes across it in Parsee writing because the descent through Abraham is immaterial to Zoroastrians.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

No actually its not silly at all but the silly bit is there was a chain of prophets ending with muhamed and where does zoro come into it and did Abraham appear in the Torah first or the qu'an first,erm i don't think thats a hard one to answer do you.
Regards

I dealt with the first question in the link above. Muslims believe that Abraham did indeed produce a "Book" of Revelation which they title THe Scrolls. The Scrolls did not survive the ages, so the only record of Abraham which we possess is the mention of Him in the Torah.

Regards,
Scott

 

[doppelganger]

I think one rarely comes across it in Parsee writing because the descent through Abraham is immaterial to Zoroastrians.

What is the source for information about Zoroaster in the chart you posted? I see that there's a Baha'i belief about this issue, but other than asserting it (it has obvious theological purposes to do so), what is the historical evidence for this proposition?

 

[Popeyesays]

Well, Persians are more concerned with the lineage of Zoroaster than most other people. But any lineage that tries to trace itself back that many millenia is going to contain a certain percentage of dubious links.

On the other hand, if I knew all the links there is a dmaned good chance I could link a lineage back to Abraham, there's an awful lot of collateral links in the many generations. 6,000 years equal what? Three hundred generations, give or take which is 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, 2048, 4086 . . . . . . . a lot of ancestors to find a link between me and Abraham.

Regards,
Scott