doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
It forces people to not be who they are - or at least not to express it. It's a distinction without a difference to me. And I find it repugnant and hypocritical.
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What do you feel is wrong with Islam?
- Thread starter S.Z (Muslim)
- Start date
It forces people to not be who they are - or at least not to express it. It's a distinction without a difference to me. And I find it repugnant and hypocritical.
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
BTW, that's also what I don't like about Scientology. The stifling of ideas, literature, or art by anyone is not something of which I approve.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Define "Islam."
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
dopple raises an issue which is deeper than he might have first thought:
"
Originally Posted by doppelgänger
So long as your religion doesn't include the belief in free speech (or at least free speech that Muslims find offensive).
If it does, and you have the gall to act on that belief by speaking, drawing a cartoon, or introducing someone to a book or idea, then brace yourself up for a lovely wave of compulsion."
How exactly did Muhammed deal with satire and taunts when He actually lived? How can we tell?
I suggest one read the Surah: The Poets to know. One of the problems He had to deal with was those who were considered "poets" of the time.
A poet in the time of Muhammed could best be described as a Tom Lehrer or a Mark Russel. They used doggerel to entertain, and a lot of that concerned political and social satire. They were hecklers, stand-up comics of the desert.
Muhammed was often the butt of their material, at least in the camps and oases of those who did not follow Muhammed.
Muhammed revealed an entire surah in response.
One should read it all, but here are the last few verses.
"216 And if they (thy kinsfolk) disobey thee, say: Lo! I am innocent of what they do.
217 And put thy trust in the Mighty, the Merciful.
218 Who seeth thee when thou standest up (to pray)
219 And (seeth) thine abasement among those who fall prostrate (in worship).
220 Lo! He, only He, is the Hearer, the Knower.
221 Shall I inform you upon whom the devils descend ?
222 They descend on every sinful, false one.
223 They listen eagerly, but most of them are liars.
224 As for poets, the erring follow them.
225 Hast thou not seen how they stray in every valley,
226 And how they say that which they do not ?
227 Save those who believe and do good works, and remember Allah much, and vindicate themselves after they have been wronged. Those who do wrong will come to know by what a (great) reverse they will be overturned!
Surah 24: The Poets, Pickthall, tr.)
Regards,
Scott
"
Originally Posted by doppelgänger
So long as your religion doesn't include the belief in free speech (or at least free speech that Muslims find offensive).
How exactly did Muhammed deal with satire and taunts when He actually lived? How can we tell?
I suggest one read the Surah: The Poets to know. One of the problems He had to deal with was those who were considered "poets" of the time.
A poet in the time of Muhammed could best be described as a Tom Lehrer or a Mark Russel. They used doggerel to entertain, and a lot of that concerned political and social satire. They were hecklers, stand-up comics of the desert.
Muhammed was often the butt of their material, at least in the camps and oases of those who did not follow Muhammed.
Muhammed revealed an entire surah in response.
One should read it all, but here are the last few verses.
"216 And if they (thy kinsfolk) disobey thee, say: Lo! I am innocent of what they do.
217 And put thy trust in the Mighty, the Merciful.
218 Who seeth thee when thou standest up (to pray)
219 And (seeth) thine abasement among those who fall prostrate (in worship).
220 Lo! He, only He, is the Hearer, the Knower.
221 Shall I inform you upon whom the devils descend ?
222 They descend on every sinful, false one.
223 They listen eagerly, but most of them are liars.
224 As for poets, the erring follow them.
225 Hast thou not seen how they stray in every valley,
226 And how they say that which they do not ?
227 Save those who believe and do good works, and remember Allah much, and vindicate themselves after they have been wronged. Those who do wrong will come to know by what a (great) reverse they will be overturned!
Surah 24: The Poets, Pickthall, tr.)
Regards,
Scott
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
The Surah you quoted from doesn't answer the questions you asked, as far as I can figure out.
I beg to differ as jihad was called not only in defense by saladin and muhamed would have approved because he wanted to expand the islamic empire and const was the way of expansion.
Once conquered the people either converted to islam paid protection money or were topped.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Islam, definition: The Submission. to submit one's self to the will of God.
However,every individual muslim is required to determine for himself what the will of God maybe. Some are right, some are wrong. That's a matter of the state of their soul, and I am not privy to understanding the state of their souls.
Surely those who scream that they follow Muhammed and act as if they do NOT follow Muhammed are hypocrites.
\As to my original comment, since you've ignored it, I'll repeat it:
" Muhammed says the Great Jihad is the struggle within one's self to submit to the will of God.
Leaders who wish to gain power amongst the people of Islamic nations declare that the great Jihad (struggle) is to make war against the west.
Therefore those Leaders who disobey the word of God are not true followers of the Qur'an and the Prophet Muhammed."
Regards,
Scott
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
The occupation of Spain by the Moors was a time of enlightenment in which Jews and Christians were not only tolerated but welcomed. Compare it to the Inquisition for tolerance sometime.
Wars of conquest in Spain did not demand conversion. They were not jihad in the sense of holy war, because they were not fought in the defense of Islam.
THe "conquest" of Jerusalem was hardly a conquest since not a drop of blood spilled in the process. When the leader entered the city he refused an invitation to make his prayers in the churches or synagogues because that would imply that he came to convert. Rather he prayed in the street. Again this was not a jihad.
When the first crusade took Jerusalem, not only were the muslims put to the sword but the Jews and the Christians who had been allies of the Crusaders also were put to the sword.
Jihad at that point was certainly justified.
Regards,
Scott
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
doppelgänger;1050699 said:The Surah you quoted from doesn't answer the questions you asked, as far as I can figure out.
Sorry, it did for me. I think it might have for you if you'd considered it while reading it.
Regards,
Scott
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
doppelgänger;1050683 said:
It does not interfere with people expressing Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Sabeanism, Judaism. Baha`i's bump into an intolerant environment, of course, because we are not considered People of the Book.
That you do not find it worthwhile as a distinction does not mean it is not a distinction which should be noted. Prejudice is hard to uproot.
Regards,
Scott
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Like this?
Excerpt K 2:190-191
Set 2, Count 3+4 [2.190] ...fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you...[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
Excerpt K 4:074-077
Set 15, Count 38-41 [4.74] Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward. [4.75] ...fight in the way of Allah... [4.76] Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Satan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Satan... [4.77] ...when fighting is prescribed for them...Our Lord! why hast Thou ordained fighting for us?...
Excerpt K 4:089-091
Set 17, Count 43-45 [4.89] ...take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allahs way; but if they turn back [to their homes], then seize them and kill them wherever you find them... [4.90] Allah has not given you a way against them [Allah supposedly does not allow Muslims to fight people friendly to Muslims]. [4.91]...seize them and kill them wherever you find them...
Excerpt K 8:015-017
Set 29, Count 63-65 [8.15] ...when you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them. [8.16] ...for the sake of fighting... [8.17] So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them, and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote [Allah gets the credit for Jihad]...
2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.
4:74 Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.
9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush.
9:111 Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah ? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph.
28:58 And how many a community have We destroyed that was thankless for its means of livelihood! And yonder are their dwellings, which have not been inhabited after them save a little. And We, even We, were the inheritors.
33:60 If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbours in it but a little while. 33:61 Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
would you care to cite your quotations, at least provide the translator?
Regards,
Scott
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Sorry, don't know. Found them on the net. Are you disputing the translation?
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
No. it was not.
Here's your message in full:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Popeyesays
Try this one it is more appropriate to the issue:
Muhammed says the Great Jihad is the struggle within one's self to submit to the will of God.
Leaders who wish to gain power amongst the people of Islamic nations declare that the great Jihad (struggle) is to make war against the west.
Therefore those Leaders who disobey the word of God are not true followers of the Qur'an and the Prophet Muhammed.
Your original syllogism suffers a fallacy of equivalency. It seems you are erecting a strawman since that was never the original argument.
Straw men and red herrings are only successful debate tactics when they remain a distraction from the real point. Let's get back to the real point.
Regards,
Scott
Define "Islam." __________________
Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong.
-Thomas Jefferson
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
You're mistaken:
Originally Posted by YmirGF
I suppose using this logic the followers of Charles Manson could claim he was part of the illustrious lineup too and not just another pretty face in a police lineup.
Originally Posted by YmirGF
I suppose using this logic the followers of Charles Manson could claim he was part of the illustrious lineup too and not just another pretty face in a police lineup.
Autodidact said:
Popeye said: