What do you feel is wrong with Islam?

[Autodidact]

Now, what was that definition of Islam again?

 

[Popeyesays]

Now, what was that definition of Islam again?

I am sorry that you are eating crow. It is more tasty with BBQ sauce. We all eat crow sometime or another.

Now: your questions was "Define Islam" you can't deny that. You'll only be silly in the process.

Regards,

Scott

 

[Wandered Off]

Providing all your "proof" would be contrary to free will which is part of the nature of man CREATED by God.

Please elaborate on this assertion. I don't see how more information (proof) would in any way contradict free will. If anything, it would enhance free will by allowing people to make informed choices.

A lack of information never enhances free will. The idea that "the less we know for certain, the freer our will" is absurd.

Suppose God offered proof, and a huge number of nonbelievers suddenly became believers. They never lost any free will about whether to follow God's commands... They merely made a more informed choice. It's common sense: Better (more complete) information usually leads to better decisions. How free or fettered the will was simply isn't altered by this.

What IS altered is downside risk, and that's not free will.

EDIT: Created a separate thread for this:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/61358-would-proof-eliminate-free-will.html

 

[Popeyesays]

Before you asked me to define Islam, you asked me what are the fruits of Allah.

The fruits of God are this.

I sit in a chair at a computer talking with you over unknown distances almost instantaneously.

The chair is a fruit of God. The computer is a fruit of God. To have someone to talk with is a fruit of God. The distance between us is a fruit of God. The air I breathe is a fruit of God. The blood in my veins is a fruit of God. THe veins that transmit that blood are a fruit of God. The mind that I use to speak with you is a fruit of God.

I do not think that really was your question. Might it have been "What are the fruits of Muhammed?"

I paraphrase myself, but "Ask questions better."

Regards,
Scott

 

[Autodidact]

I am sorry that you are eating crow. It is more tasty with BBQ sauce. We all eat crow sometime or another.

Now: your questions was "Define Islam" you can't deny that. You'll only be silly in the process.

Regards,

Scott

I'm sorry, you're mistaken. My question was:
What about the fruits of the followers of Allah?
Your answer was: Allah is Arabic for "God". Those Christians and Jews who speak Arabic pray to Allah, too.

What was that definition of Islam again?

 

[Autodidact]

Before you asked me to define Islam, you asked me what are the fruits of Allah.
Regards,
Scott

You're mistaken again. My question was not about the fruits of Allah, but of his followers.

 

[Autodidact]

I seem to have missed your definition of Islam. Could you repeat it please? Thank you.

 

[Popeyesays]

Please elaborate on this assertion. I don't see how more information (proof) would in any way contradict free will. If anything, it would enhance free will by allowing people to make informed choices.

A lack of information never enhances free will. The idea that "the less we know for certain, the freer our will" is absurd.

Suppose God offered proof, and a huge number of nonbelievers suddenly became believers. They never lost any free will about whether to follow God's commands... They merely made a more informed choice. It's common sense: Better (more complete) information usually leads to better decisions. How free or fettered the will was simply isn't altered by this.

What IS altered is downside risk, and that's not free will.

Look at the story of Adam and Eve. I say story because I have no interest in it being literal.

Adam needs no proof to believe God is present with him, seen by him, heard by him. COMMANDED by him.

He is not human until he has the right to choose. At that point God is no longer his to see, hear, be commanded by. Now he becomes what he was created to be--man.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

I seem to have missed your definition of Islam. Could you repeat it please? Thank you.

al-Islam-- Arabic meaning "The Submission"

Submission:

2. the act of submitting; usually surrendering power to another 3. the condition of having submitted to control by someone or something else; "the union was brought into submission"; "his submission to the will of God" 4. the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness [syn: meekness]

Regards,

Scott

 

[Wandered Off]

Look at the story of Adam and Eve. I say story because I have no interest in it being literal.

Adam needs no proof to believe God is present with him, seen by him, heard by him. COMMANDED by him.

He is not human until he has the right to choose. At that point God is no longer his to see, hear, be commanded by. Now he becomes what he was created to be--man.

How was Adam's free will diminished in God's presence?

EDIT: Created a thread for this:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/61358-would-proof-eliminate-free-will.html

 

[Popeyesays]

You're mistaken again. My question was not about the fruits of Allah, but of his followers.

The fruits of His followers are sometimes good and sometimes bad. The fruits of atheists are sometimes good, sometimes bad. The fruits of His followers bear no relevance to the fruits of His Person.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Autodidact]

So you are using the word "Islam" to mean "submission" then? Any submission, anytime, by anyone, to anyone, for any reason? For example, when you submit to the truth and admit that this is the first time you have attempted to submit a definition of Islam, that will be Islam? Or did you want to be more specific? Because of course, under your definition, when an atheist submits to the truth, that would be Islam.

For example, is Islam a religion? That might help for starters.

 

[Autodidact]

The fruits of His followers are sometimes good and sometimes bad. The fruits of atheists are sometimes good, sometimes bad. The fruits of His followers bear no relevance to the fruits of His Person.

Regards,
Scott

Does that apply to Charles Manson's followers as well?
btw, do you see now that you were mistaken about which question you were answering earlier? If so, good manners would suggest admitting as much. If not, perhaps you can show me why I was mistaken? I would not like my error to go uncorrected.

 

[Popeyesays]

So you are using the word "Islam" to mean "submission" then? Any submission, anytime, by anyone, to anyone, for any reason? For example, when you submit to the truth and admit that this is the first time you have attempted to submit a definition of Islam, that will be Islam? Or did you want to be more specific? Because of course, under your definition, when an atheist submits to the truth, that would be Islam.

For example, is Islam a religion? That might help for starters.

al-Islam is submissiion to the will of God. Literally it means THE Submission as in first in importance, it is a nonsuch.

Well, not submitting to the truth, that might be considered "islam", but not "Islam".

On the other hand a muslim IS submitting to "the truth".

But I do not believe in THE TRUTH, because that would mean there is something other than relative truth on this material plane, and there is no such thing.

In my best understanding, atheists just substitute "truth" for "God" and act on faith just like anyone else.

Regards,

Scott

 

[Autodidact]

So would you describe Islam as a religion?

 

[Autodidact]

btw, you're still in good training form for those Question Dodging Finals. A good hint is when the person you're talking to has to ask a question more than twice to get an answer.

 

[Popeyesays]

Does that apply to Charles Manson's followers as well?
btw, do you see now that you were mistaken about which question you were answering earlier? If so, good manners would suggest admitting as much. If not, perhaps you can show me why I was mistaken? I would not like my error to go uncorrected.

I was answering your direct question "What is Islam?" Look back if you do not believe me.

As to Charlie, et al., some of his followers got the hell out before the murders were committed. I would suggest that those few have good fruits to their credit.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

So would you describe Islam as a religion?

al-Islam is a religion, yes.
So is atheism in my book.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Autodidact]

I was answering your direct question "What is Islam?" Look back if you do not believe me.

As to Charlie, et al., some of his followers got the hell out before the murders were committed. I would suggest that those few have good fruits to their credit.

Regards,
Scott

YOU ARE MISTAKEN. Here is our exchange, which I have already reproduced once:

And the fruits of the followers of Allah?

Allah is Arabic for "God". Those Christians and Jews who speak Arabic pray to Allah, too.

The question you were answering was: And the fruits of the followers of Allah? Not, "What is Islam?" You did not answer the latter question until recently.

You are very hard to communicate with. I think it's because you don't actually listen to what is asked of you. I wasn't intending to ask whether their fruits were mixed, but whether they could be attributed to Charlie, or only to his followers.

 

[Autodidact]

al-Islam is a religion, yes.
So is atheism in my book.

Regards,
Scott

And when I want to know your opinion about atheism, I'll ask for it, Mr. Question Dodging Red Herring.

Great, that only took 5 pages. Islam is a religion. Is it by chance the religion that is practiced in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, and several other Middle Eastern Countries?