What do you feel is wrong with Islam?

[Popeyesays]

It's not the prophets--its the religion. Its power structure, clerics, beliefs and adherents. After all, Jesus didn't trace a bloody trail of rape and genocide across Europe and the Middle East--His followers did. Nevertheless, they were Christians acting on behalf of Christianity, just as the guy who blew himself up in Baghdad last week was a Muslim acting in behalf of Islam.

That's a fallacy of compositions. Another example of such is:

(1) The brain is made up of neurons which are each unconscious.
Therefore:
(2) The brain is unconcious.

So what you are saying is that the followers of Islam are capable of acting against the teachings of Islam.
Therefore:
Islam is vile.

It's also a non sequitur, but deal with the fallacy of composition first, by all means.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

Thank you. Unfortunately several Muslim posters here took issue with the radical assertion that the religion practiced in, for example, Saudi Arabia, is Islam. That was my point about their use of the No True Scotsman fallacy.

Saudi Arabia is a feudal nation. It is behind the curve in many regards. Some would accuse them of practicing Wahabism, rather than Islam. I, myself, consider that allegation to be largely true. Wahabism has many things to it that deny the Prophet and the Qur'an.

Regards,
Scott

 

[YmirGF]

Scott,

I see you have deemed it unnecessary to respond to my comments in post #886. You are so outspoken on these topics that I am a bit hurt that you deigned to not reply. In truth, much of what you say is assertion or supposition and yet you merrily champion on indifferent to the thinking of others. As we both have a tendency to "put people in their places" I am curious how, exactly, we differ other than perhaps you are somewhat more polite.

For example, you (and others) quite correctly singled me out for making bold faced assertions that I was not prepared to backup (nor was or am I inclined to do so, I might add) and yet when you are targeted for your own seemingly baseless assertions, you feel free to merrily dance away without responding.

Are your assertions so vaunted as to not require explanations?

All this aside, I am struck at the incongruity of a Baha'i serving as an Islamic apologist. It would seem to be a theological tightrope under the best of conditions and perhaps outright foolhardiness at worst. Just out of curiosity, why don't you leave the Muslims to answer people's comments themselves? I'm not trying to pick a fight, heaven forbid, rather, I am just curious about your motivation... this is, of course, if you deem fit to respond to my questions.

Chipper regards,

Paul

 

[Popeyesays]

Baha`u'llah tells us that Muhammed is a Manifestation of God and due the same respect we give Baha`u'llah. This is all in spite of the treatment Baha`i's receive by SOME muslims.

We publicize and register outrage when governments discriminate against Baha`i's, but it is not our pidgin to say anything against Muhammed.

As to the post you mention. I am sorry, but I missed it. I will go back and check it out and respond, I promise.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

In some respects it is indeed a strawman but given that his followers did not perceive his teachings as being "vile", heck, they thought he was Jesus Christ. So, in some respects it IS a valid comparrison. They certainly chose to believe him regardless of what our sentiments are about this particular wingnut.

Hmm. Scott, you are a clever man, there has never been any real doubt in my mind on that point, however, surely you can see that your statement directly above is simply supposition. There is no possible way you could know that "god" is, in fact, "apart" from material creation. There is no possibility that you personally know that "god" did not create himself. You are simply giving assertions -- based on -- what exactly? Regardless of what you base your perceptions on, they are still within the realm of supposition, because there is no proof to test if your suppositions (or those of others) are true or false. No doubt that is where "faith" comes into the mix.

Fond regards,

Paul

Each of Charlie's followers bears his or her own guilt for judging those fruits "good". How much they have paid or not paid is up to the courts, and God. There were a few who took to their heels earlier and their decision as to the worthiness of the fruitcake--er ...... fruit.

Yes, I can personally KNOW that God was not created because I have the testimony of Baha`u'llah on the issue. I know that is not sufficient for you, but it does no have to be sufficient for. Does it? Make your own decision, it's yours and yours alone to make.

The reason I believe as I believe is expressed here, I am not appealing to you to except its authority for yourself:

"XXVII. All praise to the unity of God, and all honor to Him, the sovereign Lord, the incomparable and all-glorious Ruler of the universe, Who, out of utter nothingness, hath created the reality of all things, Who, from naught, hath brought into being the most refined and subtle elements of His creation, and Who, rescuing His creatures from the abasement of remoteness and the perils of ultimate extinction, hath received them into His kingdom of incorruptible glory. Nothing short of His all-encompassing grace, His all-pervading mercy, could have possibly achieved it. How could it, otherwise, have been possible for sheer nothingness to have acquired by itself the worthiness and capacity to emerge from its state of non-existence into the realm of being?

Having created the world and all that liveth and moveth therein, He, through the direct operation of His unconstrained and sovereign Will, chose to confer upon man the unique distinction and capacity to know Him and to love Him -- a capacity that must needs be regarded as the generating impulse and the primary purpose underlying the whole of creation.... Upon the inmost reality of each and every created thing He hath shed the light of one of His names, and made it a recipient of the glory of one of His attributes. Upon the reality of man, however, He hath focused the radiance of all of His names and attributes, and made it a mirror of His own Self. Alone of all created things man hath been singled out for so great a favor, so enduring a bounty."

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 64)



Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

While you may disagree with them, the people who beat the Belgian man to death because a Danish newspaper published a cartoon they didn't like certainly thought they were behaving in an Islamic manner, in furtherance of Islamic goals. And who are you or I to say different?

When Baha`u'llah was marched into prison in the Siyah Chal a crowd was gathered to taunt him. An old woman picked up a stone and begged the guards to let her throw it at Baha`u'llah. The guards were ordered to permit anything that would befoul or besmirch hHim but they were not supposed to allow Him to be seriously injured.

They tried to stop her and Baha`u'llah said: "She is doing what she believes to be a praiseworthy act in the eyes of God. Do not obstruct her."

Now that was His choice, and He made it. The man you cite would not have made the same choice I am sure. It was a criminal act and any participants should be punished.

Now, is it the fault of Muhammed that they acted in such a way?

No.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Somkid]

It is non-Muslim’s common knowledge, that Muslims almost always lie to protect and glorify their Allah and Muhammad. They unashamedly state myths in public, non-Muslims would be ashamed of; without first thinking of the consequences of what they utter. But the non-Muslim responses have been (1) ‘It is plain rubbish’ (2) ‘who cares’ (3) to a polite, ‘Is it so?’ (But perhaps, laughing inside at the stupidity of it all).

The vast majority of Muslims can recite the Quran blindly {as they are taught to}, without understanding what they recite. Some Muslims only know a sanitized version of the Quran, which they were taught. The truth in the Quran is almost never revealed, and thus most Muslims will genuinely be shocked in disbelieve, to learn the true barbarism/contradictions in the Quran.
However, almost all individual Muslims have been very enthusiastic and vocal in spreading the sanitized version of Islam, not because they are very concerned with the non-Muslims’ welfare, but because they have been nurtured in the Madrassahs or lectured by Islamic clergy, telling them that Allah will grant them extra merit points for Heaven, if they get a non-Muslim converted (basically, it is Self-interest). So, if a Muslim tries to convert you, tell him/her, “Don’t try to book your ticket to Heaven through me”. Muslim men and women, mainly aim for a Christian, because Christians are more than twice the number of Muslims and also because the existence of the Bible proves the Quran is a fake. But generally, these new Muslim converts soon find out the truth about Islam and try their best to get out or are simply trapped in a vicious cycle.


Muslims always protest that Islam is not hateful and is tolerant of others, though Islam’s Hate/intolerance is so very evident/visible in Islamic Countries. In Saudi Arabia, 87,000 foreign non-Muslims keep the oil flowing. But, there is not a single Church or temple or religious building allowed for non-Muslims. In Indonesia, even though it is a secular government, it is the same story for the past 3 decades. What church/temples exist, are bombed/damaged/vandalized. Such is the clear visible evidence but Muslims will pretend a shocked response when informed of this. They are not that dumb.

 

[Popeyesays]

It is non-Muslim’s common knowledge, that Muslims almost always lie to protect and glorify their Allah and Muhammad. They unashamedly state myths in public, non-Muslims would be ashamed of; without first thinking of the consequences of what they utter. But the non-Muslim responses have been (1) ‘It is plain rubbish’ (2) ‘who cares’ (3) to a polite, ‘Is it so?’ (But perhaps, laughing inside at the stupidity of it all).

The vast majority of Muslims can recite the Quran blindly {as they are taught to}, without understanding what they recite. Some Muslims only know a sanitized version of the Quran, which they were taught. The truth in the Quran is almost never revealed, and thus most Muslims will genuinely be shocked in disbelieve, to learn the true barbarism/contradictions in the Quran.
However, almost all individual Muslims have been very enthusiastic and vocal in spreading the sanitized version of Islam, not because they are very concerned with the non-Muslims’ welfare, but because they have been nurtured in the Madrassahs or lectured by Islamic clergy, telling them that Allah will grant them extra merit points for Heaven, if they get a non-Muslim converted (basically, it is Self-interest). So, if a Muslim tries to convert you, tell him/her, “Don’t try to book your ticket to Heaven through me”. Muslim men and women, mainly aim for a Christian, because Christians are more than twice the number of Muslims and also because the existence of the Bible proves the Quran is a fake. But generally, these new Muslim converts soon find out the truth about Islam and try their best to get out or are simply trapped in a vicious cycle.


Muslims always protest that Islam is not hateful and is tolerant of others, though Islam’s Hate/intolerance is so very evident/visible in Islamic Countries. In Saudi Arabia, 87,000 foreign non-Muslims keep the oil flowing. But, there is not a single Church or temple or religious building allowed for non-Muslims. In Indonesia, even though it is a secular government, it is the same story for the past 3 decades. What church/temples exist, are bombed/damaged/vandalized. Such is the clear visible evidence but Muslims will pretend a shocked response when informed of this. They are not that dumb.

There is no doubt that the Saudi religious strictures are abhorent. That is a result of their Wahabism, not Islam.

There is no doubt that the Taliban is evil and has practiced great harm on women and particularly Buddhists in Afghanistan. They are repressive political leaders who use Islam as a cloak, while perpetrate crime and revile the Prophet.

In Indonesia Baha`i's are pretty much left alone these days, though ten years ago that was not the case.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Somkid]

There is no doubt that the Saudi religious strictures are abhorent. That is a result of their Wahabism, not Islam.

There is no doubt that the Taliban is evil and has practiced great harm on women and particularly Buddhists in Afghanistan. They are repressive political leaders who use Islam as a cloak, while perpetrate crime and revile the Prophet.

In Indonesia Baha`i's are pretty much left alone these days, though ten years ago that was not the case.

Regards,
Scott

I actually never said a bad word about Islam, I have been asked by the university I work for to write about it and I have been asked by Buddhist monks here to comment on it (the bad things in general) actually I never even spoke of it until there was a post suggesting that Buddhism was part of Islam now I have a really bad attitude. To spite the country where I live monks, school teachers,woman and children in the south are slaughtered in the name of Allah everyday I now have a personal mission and want to expose Islam for what it really is.

 

[Popeyesays]

I actually never said a bad word about Islam, I have been asked by the university I work for to write about it and I have been asked by Buddhist monks here to comment on it (the bad things in general) actually I never even spoke of it until there was a post suggesting that Buddhism was part of Islam now I have a really bad attitude. To spite the country where I live monks, school teachers,woman and children in the south are slaughtered in the name of Allah everyday I now have a personal mission and want to expose Islam for what it really is.

I have friends whose families have been destroyed by people who call themselves muslims over the course of the last 160+ years. Muhammed did not do it and the Qur'an did not command it to be done.

Human behavior causes karma--good or ill. But it's human behavior.

Detachment is not just a Buddhist concept:
"Now is the moment in which to cleanse thyself with the waters of detachment that have flowed out from the Supreme Pen, and to ponder, wholly for the sake of God, those things which, time and again, have been sent down or manifested, and then to strive, as much as lieth in thee, to quench, through the power of wisdom and the force of thy utterance, the fire of enmity and hatred which smouldereth in the hearts of the peoples of the world. The Divine Messengers have been sent down, and their Books were revealed, for the purpose of promoting the knowledge of God, and of furthering unity and fellowship amongst men. But now behold, how they have made the Law of God a cause and pretext for perversity and hatred. How pitiful, how regrettable, that most men are cleaving fast to, and have busied themselves with, the things they possess, and are unaware of, and shut out as by a veil from, the things God possesseth!

Say: "O God, my God! Attire mine head with the 13 crown of justice, and my temple with the ornament of equity. Thou, verily, art the Possessor of all gifts and bounties."

Justice and equity are twin Guardians that watch over men. From them are revealed such blessed and perspicuous words as are the cause of the well-being of the world and the protection of the nations."

(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 12)

Whose minds are well perfected
In the Factors of Enlightenment,
Who without clinging, delight in detachment-
They, the corruption-free, radiant ones,
Have attained Nibbana in the Here-and-Now.

(Buddhist, Dhammapada - Sayings of the Buddha 3 (tr. J. Richards))





Regards,
Scott

 

[Autodidact]

That's a fallacy of compositions. Another example of such is:

(1) The brain is made up of neurons which are each unconscious.
Therefore:
(2) The brain is unconcious.

So what you are saying is that the followers of Islam are capable of acting against the teachings of Islam.
Therefore:
Islam is vile.

It's also a non sequitur, but deal with the fallacy of composition first, by all means.

Regards,
Scott

No, what I've said repeatedly and clearly is that Islam is the beliefs and actions of its followers.

 

[Autodidact]

Saudi Arabia is a feudal nation. It is behind the curve in many regards. Some would accuse them of practicing Wahabism, rather than Islam. I, myself, consider that allegation to be largely true. Wahabism has many things to it that deny the Prophet and the Qur'an.

Regards,
Scott

So, Mr. Evasive, are you saying that the religion of Saudi Arabia is not Islam? What was that definition of Islam again?

 

[Autodidact]

When Baha`u'llah was marched into prison in the Siyah Chal a crowd was gathered to taunt him. An old woman picked up a stone and begged the guards to let her throw it at Baha`u'llah. The guards were ordered to permit anything that would befoul or besmirch hHim but they were not supposed to allow Him to be seriously injured.

They tried to stop her and Baha`u'llah said: "She is doing what she believes to be a praiseworthy act in the eyes of God. Do not obstruct her."

Now that was His choice, and He made it. The man you cite would not have made the same choice I am sure. It was a criminal act and any participants should be punished.

Now, is it the fault of Muhammed that they acted in such a way?

No.

Regards,
Scott

Who's talking about Muhammed? The topic is Islam. They were Muslims, acting in accord with their Islamic beliefs, in furtherance of Islam. Who am I to disagree? I'm not even Muslim.

 

[Autodidact]

There is no doubt that the Saudi religious strictures are abhorent. That is a result of their Wahabism, not Islam.

Right. Because nothing that actual Muslims actually do in the name of Islam is actually Islam.

I'm surprised. I didn't know that Wahabism was a Christian sect.

There is no doubt that the Taliban is evil and has practiced great harm on women and particularly Buddhists in Afghanistan. They are repressive political leaders who use Islam as a cloak, while perpetrate crime and revile the Prophet.

And there is no doubt that the Taliban is a Muslim group, trying their best to live Islam and make it manifest in the world.

 

[Autodidact]

I have friends whose families have been destroyed by people who call themselves muslims over the course of the last 160+ years. Muhammed did not do it and the Qur'an did not command it to be done.

Well the Muslims who did certainly thought it did.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

No, what I've said repeatedly and clearly is that Islam is the beliefs and actions of its followers.

I don't see what's so hard to understand, Everything has its criteria auto. What you are implying is that when a person professes belief in X that they can never act out of accordance with X belief system. If that is true then everybody who belongs to any group of people or set of ideas, is subject to the same line of reasoning. It's like saying that when a police officer engages in police brutality, he is only acting out the oath he took and what they taught him to do in the academy. That's not acceptable. Just because a muslim belongs to the religion of Islam does not necessarily mean that everything they do is part and parcel of Islam. Islam, like everything else has a set criteria. One is either following it in part, in whole, or not at all. All that Scott has been trying to say is to get people to acknowledge that not everything a muslim does is supported by the beliefs they claim to hold, EVEN if they say they do. Also I believe he is trying to convey the idea that it is indeed possible for a muslim to be a muslim and still not act in accordance to those precepts of Islam that he supposedly believes in. It would seem that this possibility is being denied and I can't understand that.

I don't understand why it's so difficult to get.

 

[Autodidact]

I don't see what's so hard to understand, Everything has its criteria auto. What you are implying is that when a person professes belief in X that they can never act out of accordance with X belief system. If that is true then everybody who belongs to any group of people or set of ideas, is subject to the same line of reasoning. It's like saying that when a police officer engages in police brutality, he is only acting out the oath he took and what they taught him to do in the academy. That's not acceptable. Just because a muslim belongs to the religion of Islam does not necessarily mean that everything they do is part and parcel of Islam. Islam, like everything else has a set criteria. One is either following it in part, in whole, or not at all. All that Scott has been trying to say is to get people to acknowledge that not everything a muslim does is supported by the beliefs they claim to hold, EVEN if they say they do. Also I believe he is trying to convey the idea that it is indeed possible for a muslim to be a muslim and still not act in accordance to those precepts of Islam that he supposedly believes in. It would seem that this possibility is being denied and I can't understand that.

I don't understand why it's so difficult to get.

Define Islam.

 

[Popeyesays]

Well the Muslims who did certainly thought it did.

Actually those who orchestrated it were very cynical, seeing Baha`i's as a threat to their livlihoods and a useful scapegoat to misdirect the wrath of the people away from themselves. That is politics, not religion. The relatively ignorant mobs who did the deeds were just as much patsies as the victims of the aggression.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

Right. Because nothing that actual Muslims actually do in the name of Islam is actually Islam.

I'm surprised. I didn't know that Wahabism was a Christian sect.

And there is no doubt that the Taliban is a Muslim group, trying their best to live Islam and make it manifest in the world.

Sorry, the Taliban is a political party composed of the extremist factions who overthrew the government left behind after the Soviets pulled out. They play the religion card to garner support among the ignorant mobs.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

Who's talking about Muhammed? The topic is Islam. They were Muslims, acting in accord with their Islamic beliefs, in furtherance of Islam. Who am I to disagree? I'm not even Muslim.

Islam is the revelation contained in the Qur'an. The governments and clergy of Islam are often guilty of excess.

Baha`i's are shown that the ungodly acts of the clergy will eventually destroy Islam, and only the Prophet and the Book will be left behind.

Regards,
Scott