What do you feel is wrong with Islam?

[doppelganger]

Sorry, it did for me. I think it might have for you if you'd considered it while reading it.

Please don't be condescending, Scott. You know I read your posts with the first purpose of trying to comprehend them.

 

[Popeyesays]

And when I want to know your opinion about atheism, I'll ask for it, Mr. Question Dodging Red Herring.

Great, that only took 5 pages. Islam is a religion. Is it by chance the religion that is practiced in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, and several other Middle Eastern Countries?

CrossX is not the usual tactic in this kind of discussion.

You want to know my opinion on Islam, if you are free to probe for that you need to take my opinion on atheism as well.

As a point of simple fact, ma`am. Christianity is a religion practiced in Pakistan, Iran, Iraq and several other mid-eastern countries as is Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Sabeanism and Baha`i. There are even a few brave atheists in those countries.

There is no exclusivity in them. One can even practice the Baha`i Faith in Iran, one just has terrible social and political difficulties trying to do it.

Iraq used to prohibit the Baha`i Faith's institutions in the country, but the fall of Sadam rectified that.

Now is Islam the majority religion in those countries, sure. You know it as well as I.

So, have I fallen into your trap. Or are you just going to spring the same argument on me again and claim empty triumph?

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

Please don't be condescending, Scott. You know I read your posts with the first purpose of trying to comprehend them.

Not really trying to be condescending, Dopp. Just wondering why you replied so quickly without time for much consideration.

Muhammed protested the behavior of the "poets", but He did not have them killed.

If Muhammed had seen those cartoons, He would have protested, but He would not have had the artist killed. If His followers had done that, He would have chastised them for it.

There is a chapter in Muhammed and the Course of Islam (Balyuzi) that directs a lot of attention to the issue during Muhammed's life and provides examples that would be illuminating, not just to us but to those who presume to lead Muslims today.

Regards,
Scott

 

[doppelganger]

Not really trying to be condescending, Dopp. Just wondering why you replied so quickly without time for much consideration.

It doesn't always take me the same amount of time to consider and comprehend something as it might take someone else.

Muhammed protested the behavior of the "poets", but He did not have them killed.

The Surah you quoted doesn't make any mention of what he did. Though reading between the lines, it seems to say that what one should do is imagine that if people disagree with you, they must be erroneous. That doesn't necessarily preclude doing other things to them as well.

If Muhammed had seen those cartoons, He would have protested, but He would not have had the artist killed. If His followers had done that, He would have chastised them for it.

You're speculating. We know what many, many Muslims did in response to them (and to Rushdie, and to a poor teacher who let her class name a stuffed bear "Mohammed").

"Islam" is the people, how they think and how they act. Not all Muslims are opposed to free speech rights. And I'm sure there are some that would take that Surah the way you do. But those exceptions merely confirm the overall tendency, as an obviously common trait among the world's Muslims and their leadership is to call for violence in response to what they deem blasphemous or offensive speech. And squelching ideas and speech is a death-knell to tolerance and understanding.

 

[doppelganger]

Afghan student sentenced to death for blasphemy - International Herald Tribune
Pakistani Sentenced to Death for Blasphemy - New York Times
PAKISTAN Another Christian condemned to death for blasphemy, without any proof - Asia News
BBC NEWS | South Asia | Death penalty in blasphemy case

While there are prosecutions elsewhere against people expressing unpopular ideas, violence as a reprisal to unpopular ideas goes hand in hand with Islam. Just like SLAPP lawsuits are uniquely prevalent among defenders of Scientology.

 

[Popeyesays]

Afghan student sentenced to death for blasphemy - International Herald Tribune
Pakistani Sentenced to Death for Blasphemy - New York Times
PAKISTAN Another Christian condemned to death for blasphemy, without any proof - Asia News
BBC NEWS | South Asia | Death penalty in blasphemy case

While there are prosecutions elsewhere against people expressing unpopular ideas, violence as a reprisal to unpopular ideas goes hand in hand with Islam.

Well, it's your right to your opinion, Dopp. But Judaism has stoned blasphemers. Christianity has burned blasphemers. Hindus used to burn the widows on the husbands. pyre.

I do not consider any of those things to be attributable to the Prophets involved.

One might note that Moses did not command stoning while He was alive. That came from His "priests" after He was gone.

Regards,
Scott

 

[doppelganger]

I do not consider any of those things to be attributable to the Prophets involved.

Red herring.

 

[Popeyesays]

It doesn't always take me the same amount of time to consider and comprehend something as it might take someone else.



The Surah you quoted doesn't make any mention of what he did. Though reading between the lines, it seems to say that what one should do is imagine that if people disagree with you, they must be erroneous. That doesn't necessarily preclude doing other things to them as well.



You're speculating. We know what many, many Muslims did in response to them (and to Rushdie, and to a poor teacher who let her class name a stuffed bear "Mohammed").

"Islam" is the people, how they think and how they act. Not all Muslims are opposed to free speech rights. And I'm sure there are some that would take that Surah the way you do. But those exceptions merely confirm the overall tendency, as an obviously common trait among the world's Muslims and their leadership is to call for violence in response to what they deem blasphemous or offensive speech. And squelching ideas and speech is a death-knell to tolerance and understanding.

No. Islam is the Revelation associated with Muhammed.

Followers of every religion and no religion have allowed themselves to be agitated manipulated and used to commit crimes.

Regards,
Scott

 

[doppelganger]

No. Islam is the Revelation associated with Muhammed.

Nope. It is the interpretation of the Revelation associated with Muhammad. I don't think you have the means to dictate to all the world's Muslims what that Revelation means.

Without the interpretation, it's just ink on paper.

Followers of every religion and no religion have allowed themselves to be agitated manipulated and used to commit crimes.

I haven't suggested otherwise. Though who would you consider a follower of "no religion"?

 

[England my lionheart]

Well, it's your right to your opinion, Dopp. But Judaism has stoned blasphemers. Christianity has burned blasphemers. Hindus used to burn the widows on the husbands. pyre.

I do not consider any of those things to be attributable to the Prophets involved.

One might note that Moses did not command stoning while He was alive. That came from His "priests" after He was gone.

Regards,
Scott

You are right they used to but these people are being murdered now

 

[England my lionheart]

Scott you should change your name to dodger

 

[McBell]

Though i do not believe this is a problem with Islam so much as it is a problem with certain Muslims...

Why do certain Muslims feel the need to put their Prophet in the writings of other religions?
Even to the the extent of flat out liing and manipulating what is written to fit their POV?

Is it because they fear Mohammad cannot stand on his own?
That he needs to be falsely inserted into the writings of other religions to lend credence to their own beliefs?

 

[Autodidact]

CrossX is not the usual tactic in this kind of discussion.

You want to know my opinion on Islam, if you are free to probe for that you need to take my opinion on atheism as well.

As a point of simple fact, ma`am. Christianity is a religion practiced in Pakistan, Iran, Iraq and several other mid-eastern countries as is Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Sabeanism and Baha`i. There are even a few brave atheists in those countries.

There is no exclusivity in them. One can even practice the Baha`i Faith in Iran, one just has terrible social and political difficulties trying to do it.

Iraq used to prohibit the Baha`i Faith's institutions in the country, but the fall of Sadam rectified that.

Now is Islam the majority religion in those countries, sure. You know it as well as I.

So, have I fallen into your trap. Or are you just going to spring the same argument on me again and claim empty triumph?

Regards,
Scott

Thank you. Unfortunately several Muslim posters here took issue with the radical assertion that the religion practiced in, for example, Saudi Arabia, is Islam. That was my point about their use of the No True Scotsman fallacy.

 

[Autodidact]

Not really trying to be condescending, Dopp. Just wondering why you replied so quickly without time for much consideration.

Muhammed protested the behavior of the "poets", but He did not have them killed.

If Muhammed had seen those cartoons, He would have protested, but He would not have had the artist killed. If His followers had done that, He would have chastised them for it.

There is a chapter in Muhammed and the Course of Islam (Balyuzi) that directs a lot of attention to the issue during Muhammed's life and provides examples that would be illuminating, not just to us but to those who presume to lead Muslims today.

Regards,
Scott

While you may disagree with them, the people who beat the Belgian man to death because a Danish newspaper published a cartoon they didn't like certainly thought they were behaving in an Islamic manner, in furtherance of Islamic goals. And who are you or I to say different?

 

[Autodidact]

Well, it's your right to your opinion, Dopp. But Judaism has stoned blasphemers. Christianity has burned blasphemers. Hindus used to burn the widows on the husbands. pyre.

I do not consider any of those things to be attributable to the Prophets involved.

One might note that Moses did not command stoning while He was alive. That came from His "priests" after He was gone.

Regards,
Scott

It's not the prophets--its the religion. Its power structure, clerics, beliefs and adherents. After all, Jesus didn't trace a bloody trail of rape and genocide across Europe and the Middle East--His followers did. Nevertheless, they were Christians acting on behalf of Christianity, just as the guy who blew himself up in Baghdad last week was a Muslim acting in behalf of Islam.

 

[Autodidact]

No. Islam is the Revelation associated with Muhammed.

Followers of every religion and no religion have allowed themselves to be agitated manipulated and used to commit crimes.

Regards,
Scott

Another good argument against religion in general.

 

[Protector]

That he needs to be falsely inserted into the writings of other religions to lend credence to their own beliefs?

Falsely??

 

[McBell]

Falsely??

If the shoe fits, put it on.

 

[Don Penguinoini]

I dont like how Muslims want to get there numbers up despretaly and control the world.

 

[Popeyesays]

Another good argument against religion in general.

Well, I guess you're reading selectively again, since the quote says people of religion and people of NO religion are equally guilty.

Regards,
Scott