• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

What do you gain from criticism of a religious teaching you do not follow or believe in?

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
to each his own. I do get annoyed, I got laughed at by athiests, I got trash talked by athiests, I got ridiculed by athiests, I got degraded by athiests and yet, I'm supposed to sit back idly and let them carry on.

jeepers...such fairness eh?
I've never seen you get flamed without you flaming them first.

I did start using a some harsh comments only because I have gotten fed up with their words of degradation and calling my religion and scholars of Islam idiots and criticizing my belief as if it was trash. Sure, go ahead and take their side you might be one of them too.
I've never seen anyone tell you that the scholars of Islam are idiots or that your beliefs are trash. If it actually went down that way, those sorts of posts would generally get removed because they break the forum rules on trolling.

That being said, I don't believe that things went down the way you're describing.

They do NOT respect me, I will NOT respect them. PERIOD.
This gets into the "tone reflecting" thing I mentioned earlier. Snark at people, expect snark back.
 

MyM

Well-Known Member
I've never seen you get flamed without you flaming them first.


I've never seen anyone tell you that the scholars of Islam are idiots or that your beliefs are trash. If it actually went down that way, those sorts of posts would generally get removed because they break the forum rules on trolling.

That being said, I don't believe that things went down the way you're describing.


This gets into the "tone reflecting" thing I mentioned earlier. Snark at people, expect snark back.


ok I see who side you are on :) It's ok really

snark is as snarkin does

oh and if you really knew me and understood my way of thinking, I hardly ever raise my voice to anyone, let alone my kids. So don't presume to know anything about my character, especially if the athiests are involved.
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
I don't doubt that it happens. I've just never seen it happen here on RF. Or suggested to anyone that was not already a cult member of one of those anti-human religions. Which is why it seemed like an odd defense of religious criticism. When the vast majority of religions and religious folks don't adhere to that kind of anti-human religious dogma.

I'm not trying to defend religious criticism, because there isn't anything you can do to silence it. I'm saying that we have a moral obligation to debunk harmful misinformation; it just so happens that many of these harmful claims are religious.

I'd wager that the reason you don't see it on RF is because this site is pretty well-moderated and it has diverse perspectives. Even in most Christian forums, there are rules against this sort of thing, but enough people have been banned from Christian-exclusive forums that they end up forming their own echochambers elsewhere.

The majority of people don't subscribe to those beliefs, sure, but the faith-healers arrive to their beliefs in the same way a good chunk of Christians arrive at their religious claims: blind faith. Which means that Christianity itself places people at risk because it destroys one's capacity to reason. This is just a more dramatic example of how faith harms people.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Has humanity ever thanked you for your service?
A few individuals have.

Some are odd...
A couple veterans have thanked me for my service.
They knew I'm a draft dodger, but they appreciated
my work in military aircraft design. One guy is a
big fan of the F18....old tech now, but still a good
platform in service.
 
Last edited:

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
This thread is toward the people in RF who every day create OP critiquing any religious teaching they don't believe in or follow themselves.

Question:
What do you gain from it?

Are your OP made so you can learn from believers, or just to mock people you disagree with?

Does it matter to you that some people believe and live their life differently to what you do?

When a believer as you to stop the harrasment, why do you keep pushing? Don't you have respect for other people?

Before we answer the question, we must define it.

DEFINITION OF CHRISTIANITY:

DEFINITION IN REGARD TO WAR AND LIES ABOUT THE ENEMY:

Is Christianity "thou shalt not kill" (Old Testament, but still valid for Christians)? "Turn the other cheek?" "Thou shalt not bear false witness?"

Or, is Christianity "the 911 attack made us fight evil, and though Iraq was not involved in terrorism, we Christians have to use haste before diplomacy, we Christians have to appear to use quick Texas justice (that is, hang 'em first, then figure out if he's guilty), and we have to tell lies about our enemy (playing cards naming their officials "Doctor Death" and falsely blaming Niger for selling yellow-cake Uranium to Iraq) Wilson refused to lie about Niger yellow-cake, which would have killed many more people and would have taken over a country and its resources, so W. Bush and Cheney outed his CIA wife, Valery Plame)?

Is it the way of Jesus Christ to make torture camps around the world (like the ones at Camp X-Ray and Camp Delta that were shut down)? How about the torture camps in Iraq reported by the International Red Cross before US troops killed the International Red Cross workers too?

Is Christianity about telling lies about military intelligence to promote phony wars? I thought that Christians were not supposed to lie.

Is Christianity about telling lies about Orange alerts....fear that North Korea will send nukes by missiles to the United States? I thought that Satan ruled by fear and lies?

Is noting that Reverend John Hagee saying that we are not winning the war in Iraq fast enough (that is, not killing fast enough) because we need to pray to Jesus (that is, pray to kill faster) a part of Christianity?

CURING THE SICK?

Jesus Christ healed the sick, even if a blind man didn't want to be healed, Jesus healed him anyway. Christians, in modern times, opposed universal health care (doctors doing the same thing....healing the sick regardless of their ability to pay). Is Christianity about blocking universal health care?

VIOLENCE?

Since when do Religious Right candidates insist that any president must be a member of the National Rifle Association (NRA)? The NRA had blamed legitimate war hero, Senator John Kerry for not being for guns, though he was for guns and hunted during the campaign to be president)? The NRA, at the time, had the pope on their enemy list for opposing gun violence.

MIXING RELIGION AND POLITICS, TAKING OVER THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT:

Do people have the right to use their religion to take over the politics of a nation and use the nation's money to wield tremendous power in the entire world (take over innocent nations, kill millions of innocent people including women and children)?

IGNORE THE POOR, SUPPORT THE RICH?

Cut taxes for the rich so factories could be moved (and owned) overseas to take advantage of cheap foreign labor (but producing defective products). Jesus warned of greed (a deadly sin).

POLLUTE GOD'S ENVIRONMENT (THAT GOD MADE), AND GLOBAL WARMING:

Is lying about global warming the Christian thing to do? It took a lot of effort from God to balance nature so beautifully...should we destroy God's work? Maybe it doesn't matter if the "good ones" rapture to heaven?

FREE SPEECH AND OBJECTIONS:

Is objecting to wrong behavior considered anti-Christian or pro-Christian? Remember that Jesus Christ railed agains churches that shut their doors to the poor, sick, and hungry while displaying expensive bobbles. Jesus objected to wrong behavior.


Shall we make laws to block free speech (guaranteed by the Constitution) so no one can object to anti-Christian behavior of those who have taken over the government?

The bible tells us that we must spread the word (of Jesus and God).


We Christians have as much right to define our religion as you have.
 
Last edited:

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Before we answer the question, we must define it.

DEFINITION OF CHRISTIANITY:

DEFINITION IN REGARD TO WAR AND LIES ABOUT THE ENEMY:

Is Christianity "thou shalt not kill" (Old Testament, but still valid for Christians)? "Turn the other cheek?" "Thou shalt not bear false witness?"

Or, is Christianity "the 911 attack made us fight evil, and though Iraq was not involved in terrorism, we Christians have to use haste before diplomacy, we Christians have to appear to use quick Texas justice (that is, hang 'em first, then figure out if he's guilty), and we have to tell lies about our enemy (playing cards naming their officials "Doctor Death" and falsely blaming Niger for selling yellow-cake Uranium to Iraq) Wilson refused to lie about Niger yellow-cake, which would have killed many more people and would have taken over a country and its resources, so W. Bush and Cheney outed his CIA wife, Valery Plame)?

Is it the way of Jesus Christ to make torture camps around the world (like the ones at Camp X-Ray and Camp Delta that were shut down)? How about the torture camps in Iraq reported by the International Red Cross before US troops killed the International Red Cross workers too?

Is Christianity about telling lies about military intelligence to promote phony wars? I thought that Christians were not supposed to lie.

Is Christianity about telling lies about Orange alerts....fear that North Korea will send nukes by missiles to the United States? I thought that Satan ruled by fear and lies?

Is noting that Reverend John Hagee saying that we are not winning the war in Iraq fast enough (that is, not killing fast enough) because we need to pray to Jesus (that is, pray to kill faster) a part of Christianity?

CURING THE SICK?

Jesus Christ healed the sick, even if a blind man didn't want to be healed, Jesus healed him anyway. Christians, in modern times, opposed universal health care (doctors doing the same thing....healing the sick regardless of their ability to pay). Is Christianity about blocking universal health care?

VIOLENCE?

Since when do Religious Right candidates insist that any president must be a member of the National Rifle Association (NRA)? The NRA had blamed legitimate war hero, Senator John Kerry for not being for guns, though he was for guns and hunted during the campaign to be president)? The NRA, at the time, had the pope on their enemy list for opposing gun violence.

MIXING RELIGION AND POLITICS, TAKING OVER THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT:

Do people have the right to use their religion to take over the politics of a nation and use the nation's money to weild tremendous power in the entire world (take over innocent nations, kill millions of innocent people including women and children)?

IGNORE THE POOR, SUPPORT THE RICH?

Cut taxes for the rich so factories could be moved (and owned) overseas to take advantage of cheap foreign labor (but producing defective products). Jesus warned of greed (a deadly sin).

FREE SPEECH AND OBJECTIONS:

Is objecting to wrong behavior considered anti-Christian or pro-Christian? Remember that Jesus Christ railed agains churches that shut their doors to the poor, sick, and hungry while displaying expensive bobbles. Jesus objected to wrong behavior.


Shall we make laws to block free speech (guaranteed by the Constitution) so no one can object to anti-Christian behavior of those who have taken over the government?

We Christians have as much right to define our religion as you have.
As long a human being from any faith or no faith respect each others belief, I have no problem with yhem at all.
When all they care about is to disrespect and say every bad they can about religious beliefs, I stop respecting them.
Ifcthey harm others due to different religious understanding i stop respecting them. So its not just extreme atheists, but 4-5 atheists in RF has gone to far to even speak with.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This thread is toward the people in RF who every day create OP critiquing any religious teaching they don't believe in or follow themselves.

I must have missed those. Perhaps you can provide me 5 or 10 from the past week. What I see quite frequently is threads by theists complaining about atheists, like this one, or attempts to prove atheism or evolution wrong. I love those threads. This is the same behavior you call attacking beliefs. I don't experience it as an attack. I see dissent.

Does it matter to you that some people believe and live their life differently to what you do?

No, and I've expressed that explicitly several times. Does this look familiar:

"I've said repeatedly that if my neighbor wants to dance around a tree in his back yard at midnight baying at the full moon while shaking a stick with a chicken claw nailed to it in order to center himself and give his like meaning, that's fine, as long as he keeps the noise down. I might ask him how he came to his beliefs, but I'm not going to argue with him about them."

When a believer as you to stop the harrasment, why do you keep pushing? Don't you have respect for other people?

You are not being disrespected. You're being disagreed with, which you experience as disrespect.

As far as I've seen, you've always been treated well when being disagreed with, but since you experience it as attack, you feel disrespected. That's an issue for you to resolve. Your choices are either to frame dissent in terms other than attack or go on being offended where no offense is intended.

The OP is not about me.

For me, this thread is about your mistaken perceptions. You have mischaracterized skeptics as people starting threads daily (I assume that that's what you meant by creating OP's daily), and as attacking and disrespecting believers. I choose to refute that.

They may then feel the constant push from non-believers to be very unpleasant

Once again, that's on you. The theists constantly disagree with the atheists, often in unflattering ways - you think you're so smart, you worship science (scientism), or as in this thread, you're a bully, etc.. Do you see these atheists getting angry? Do you see me getting angry here with you or anywhere ever, or any other theist? No, you don't. Why? I learned this ethic at university and in the practice of medicine, although one can learn these values in business setting, courtrooms, and the military, where people learn to discuss matters without resorting to "Why are you attacking me?" when their ideas are challenged. Not everybody masters these skills or comes to that attitude, but those that don't don't generally get far.

But why the need to make critique of faiths you dont believe in or follow your self?

Once again - and I know that you want to be left out the discussion - I see very little of that, and don't know why you see otherwise. Do you think I've critiqued your faith or any other? I don't know what you believe, just something about God. All I know about Sufi is that it is the mystical side of Islam.

What I do comment on in not the faith you've chosen, but believing anything by faith, which is not limited to religious faith. America is having huge problems because of faith-based thought - stolen election, global warming a hoax, vaccines more dangerous than the virus, and abortion should be illegal. Isn't most bigotry faith-based - unsupported and destructive conclusions about entire groups of people based on nothing but unjustified belief? I find it important and useful to make the arguments against all of those and what unites them - faith-based thinking, or unjustified belief.

Aren't people free to believe what ever religious faith they want? You want to dictate what is "right" to believe in? Who gave you that autority?

And there you go again mischaracterizing what happens here. Who is dictating or assuming authority? We are making arguments and attempting to convince.

You really owe it to yourself to work on not seeing dissent as attack if you intend to continue posting on RF. You seem to have gotten over atheists as enemies, which is to your credit and presumably makes your experience here more pleasant. Now, if you can just get past dissent as attack, I think much of your dysphoria will be resolved.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Is it ok for them to attack your beliefs on that same basis?

Yes, it's even welcome, although I don't characterize it as attack.

How/why is it "fun" for you? How it is "educational" to you? What "experience" are you gaining from it? If you've really thought about this, you should be able to answer these questions.

You didn't ask me, but I want to respond. Yes, I have thought about it and am quite prepared to give you a good answer.

I've learned the folly of bringing evidence to those that don't use it, and a good way to deal with the request to expose its insincerity. I just tell them where to find answers on the Internet, and if they are actually interested in learning, to bring back what was learned and any questions about it, and we can go from there. Go ahead and guess how many times that has happened? It's caused me to extend my meaning of burden of proof. I have none with somebody unprepared and/or unwilling to track a reasoned argument and to recognize and be convinced by a sound argument. How could I "prove" anything to such a person? I've come to understand that proof is a cooperative process, and that without

I gain significant insights here every few months. Only recently have I come to understand that many if not most people don't know what critical thinking, how it differs from faith-based thinking (I group all unjustified belief together under that heading), or what it's power is - what it can reveal and the usefulness of that. I had always assumed that most people knew what it was and had some respect for it even if they couldn't do it themselves, like they would mathematics, but I have discovered otherwise. I finally understood what, "That's just your opinion" means when it follows a sound argument.

Just in the last month I have come to a clearer understanding of what rebuttal is, how it differs from other forms of dissent.

I have discovered (and some won't like this) that when I ask somebody who says he is on a spiritual journey in search of spiritual truth, that he can never tell me what those truths are or how they benefit him. I'm still exploring that. I find it hard to believe that there is nobody with a good answer to that. Some of these types seem pretty bright, especially the dharmics, and I haven't asked any that question, but I read their words and still don't see answers. What is this phenomenon, I wonder, and why does it appeal to so many?

I find great value in surveying the opinions of posters. It's where I've come to see how emotional the faith-based thinkers become compared to the critical thinkers. It's where I've come to my conclusions about the relative harm or benefit of secular humanism and the religions.

I also get the opportunity to develop and clarify my thoughts by composing responses. Here on RF, I have gotten a much clearer idea of what I mean by truth, knowledge, God, religion, faith, critical thinking, free will, evidence, proof, and the like. I get the opportunity to read the opinions of other critical thinkers, and share mine with them. This is where I've learned to write better, to identify and name logical fallacies, and to form more cogent arguments. I couldn't have written this post ten years ago for a variety of reasons (I did this on another site for eight years before it folded in 2017).

There is nothing else like these types of discussion forums available to me. Only here am I engaged in protracted discussion, sometimes over years, with candid, anonymous posters. This doesn't happen in face-to-face encounters with friends and neighbors, say over dinner. The discussions avoid such topics or brush on them briefly, and they are not candid because they are not anonymous. There are ramifications to being candid with coworkers, family, etc.. You get that emotional reaction there as well, but in those cases, such a reaction has ramifications for me and my wife, so I just don't go there. Here, however, there is no social harm. Theists routinely get their dander up, and I'm sorry that they have such reactions, but I can't control it, it's not a reason to discontinue what I do, and it has no social ramifications.

That's an awful lot of value.

It should be differentiated by the idea being separate from the person asserting it. But few people here or elsewhere are able to recognize that difference. They think that to criticize the idea is to "attack" the person asserting it (especially if it's them).

Many here are able to do that, including me.

What you are describing is the theists primarily. Which skeptics are complaining of being attacked by theists? None. Most write like I do - never complain about being attacked, and never having emotional reactions to the opinions of theists.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
But why the need to make critique of faiths you dont believe in or follow your self?
What do you get out of it?

Does it feel bad when you are asked those easy questions?

We pay taxes to the government. The government was taken over by the Religious Right. They have used our tax money to murder 1,000,000 Iraqis who were innocent of terrorism.

Surely Jesus Christ would have objected.

We can't use free speech?

Is violence from a phony war considered Christianity? What about "thou shalt not kill?"

Christians have organized and voted in great numbers, and we are supposed to have our Constitutionally guaranteed free speech taken from us while they take over even more.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
We pay taxes to the government. The government was taken over by the Religious Right. They have used our tax money to murder 1,000,000 Iraqis who were innocent of terrorism.

Surely Jesus Christ would have objected.

We can't use free speech?

Is violence from a phony war considered Christianity? What about "thou shalt not kill?"

Christians have organized and voted in great numbers, and we are supposed to have our Constitutionally guaranteed free speech taken from us while they take over even more.
You have to ask the Christian people in RF about this.
 
Top