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What do you know about Islam?

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
To put it another way, I can't think of any positive attribute at which Muslim people or countries excel. Not science, athletics, prosperity (unless they happen to be sitting on oil), art, freedom, music, peace, getting along with neighbors, tolerance, equal rights--what good does Islam accomplish for its people?
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Interesting point. I'm having trouble finding data from non-Muslims. Here's one chart on Muslim attitudes toward violence against civilians:

It's pretty depressing. I don't think many Americans or Europeans would advocate intentional violence against civilians. I mean, actually targeting civilians, as opposed to civilian casualties in war.

Targeting civilians in particular yes probably not as much as those who simply are okay with casualties, they still exist though. But still, being okay with civilian casualties is horrible. Also, not all muslims who think suicide bombings are understandable advocate it, there position from it varies. Some view it as 100% valid way, others view as a bad thing, but kind of justified,....

This is interesting. I think there's a shred of truth there--countries at war are going to have more violence, more positive attitudes toward violence, and so forth. We see non-Muslim terrorists too, Tamil Tigers, Irish nationalists, etc. However,

That's what i meant.

(1) I don't think this is the main reason. It's a bit of a cop-out. "Oh, we Muslims can't help becoming terrorists, we have so many social problems." There are many countries with worse social problems than other Muslims countries, that don't have or sponsor terrorism. Also, in general, if say--actually I'm having trouble thinking of a non-Muslim country that's in a war right now. Anyway, say hypothetically Israel, for example. YOu don't see American Jews strapping explosives to their chests. Why not?

Well, i didn't intend to make it sound like that, i'm just saying that these horrible social problems (they are not trivial problems, i think these are very important things) play a great factor.

As for the Israel example, for so many reasons you are not seeing that. One of them, is the fact that not all jews endorse Israel nor it's actions. Another, is that Israel is the more powerful, they are not being oppressed, why would american jews who support Israel even begin to think about resorting to such things. I see this as the defining point, the fact that all these Muslim countries at war are weaker, and some of them don't even have an official military defense representing them, and the incapability of those civilians to compete with highly trained army personal with all the tanks and planes and so on, makes it easier to justify their actions.

And that raises the big question--it's just the same question pushed down the road. Why do so many Muslim countries have these problems, much more than secular countries? Why isn't Sweden at war? Why doesn't Canada have oppressive, totalitarian leaders? Why is education so much better in South Korea than in Yemen? Why do so many Islamic scholars publish such horrible ideas, and what is it about Muslims that causes them to blindly accept them? Why is Islam more vulnerable to these horrible ideas than western secular people? Why don't modern non-Muslims in Ohio murder their daughters for wearing short skirts?

That can be answered by the fact that in certain time in history, the middle east was excelling at multiple fields, i don't know when exactly, but i think there are many members here who can shed more light about this part (like i said, i'm horrible in history). Not all countries remain in the same position, things change. Europe was in a much worse position a couple of hundreds of years ago. Also, there are other crimes that is seen more in other societies than Islamic ones, does this mean that which ever religion in majority is to blame, no. Or that secularism is to blame, no. I just think it's understandable that throughout history many countries and societies and civilizations seen their share of downfalls.

It just feels like you do everything you can to avoid the obvious culprit, the single common element: Islam.

Well, sure Islam is a common element between Islam extremists, but not the only one. So, when we look at the bigger picture, and find extremists from other religions and belief systems as well, there's got to be something else in common between them.

To put it another way, I can't think of any positive attribute at which Muslim people or countries excel. Not science, athletics, prosperity (unless they happen to be sitting on oil), art, freedom, music, peace, getting along with neighbors, tolerance, equal rights--what good does Islam accomplish for its people?

I think this part like i said earlier can be answered through the history part.
 
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nameless

The Creator
Just like Iraq is a hell for Muslims today. Just like many other places where violence and terrorism are displayed.

what resulted to iraq issue, oil? politics? or religion?
But in the case of islamic conquests, its all was to spread islam religion. The same for present day pakistan.
 

nameless

The Creator
I never denied that, and i believe they should be fought. But such examples are found in every religion, culture, belief system, race, country or whatever kind of group.

pls mention a few conquests(wars) led by buddhists, sikhs, hindus etc to spread their religion.

B.S-Not claiming one is better than the other, but facts should not be ignored....
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Fatima, would you like to reply to #58? I'm curious on your take about some questions I did there.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
That can be answered by the fact that in certain time in history, the middle east was excelling at multiple fields, i don't know when exactly, but i think there are many members here who can shed more light about this part (like i said, i'm horrible in history). Not all countries remain in the same position, things change. Europe was in a much worse position a couple of hundreds of years ago. Also, there are other crimes that is seen more in other societies than Islamic ones, does this mean that which ever religion in majority is to blame, no. Or that secularism is to blame, no. I just think it's understandable that throughout history many countries and societies and civilizations seen their share of downfalls.
This is just so vague and fatalistic. "Stuff happens." No analysis at all. Why did Islam thrive for several hundred years? What was different? Why are Muslims doing so poorly now? The fact is that secular countries are doing so well that Muslims are flocking to them by the millions. And because many Muslims are violent, oppressive, intolerant and uneducated, it's causing huge problems for those countries.

Here's a key area to look at: education. Think about it.

Well, sure Islam is a common element between Islam extremists, but not the only one. So, when we look at the bigger picture, and find extremists from other religions and belief systems as well, there's got to be something else in common between them.
Yes, I agree. Resorting to violence and xenophobia is something that human beings are prone to. People are much the same all over the world, and what causes problems (or progress) is their ideas. There is something going on with Tamil nationalists, Hutus ten years ago--and Muslims. It's a way of thinking. And what I'm saying is that, at a minimum, Islam is part of that way of thinking. There are some ideas in Islam that contribute to Muslims:
suffering under oppressive totalitarian leaders
suffering in poverty
attacking other innocent people.

I think it's a good idea to try to figure out what those ideas are. And yes, looking at other impoverished, totalitarian, violent nations and peoples helps. But you'll never figure it out if you turn your head away and (not you now Badran, other Muslims here) just deny that any of that is Islam, when it so obviously is.
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
what resulted to iraq issue, oil? politics? or religion?
But in the case of islamic conquests, its all was to spread islam religion. The same for present day pakistan.

That's a big guess to just assume that it's not possible that one of them had other ambitions, political ambitions, power struggles, greed, and so on. Is it possible that some people lied in their claim that what they did was for their religion?

Also like i said it wasn't all to spread Islam, some were just wars with enemies, like the Muhammad's early wars with Quraysh, they were defending themselves. And through history later on, i'm sure not all wars was like that.

But let's make it easier, what particularly are you saying?
Are you saying that Islam's teachings cause them to be violent, or do you mean something else?

pls mention a few conquests(wars) led by buddhists, sikhs, hindus etc to spread their religion.

B.S-Not claiming one is better than the other, but facts should not be ignored....

Like i told you before i don't know any. And if we say there is none, that could be for many reasons. Also, war is not the only kind of violence.
 

MissAlice

Well-Known Member
What do I know about Islam?

I'll see if I get some of these right, so here goes:


1. Islam is a monotheistic religion believing in only one god "Allah".

2. Muslims believe Muhammad to be the messenger of Allah (god) peace be upon him (PBUH).

3. Islam means submission to god yet for some odd reason is referred to mean peace which still confuses me.

4. Women wear Hijabs or something aong the lines that cover their heads and bodies though I'm still confused since the dress code differs from country to country and belief to belief. The only cover that seems most important is the one that covers the head. And they are to be worn especially when around men. Men on the other hand have a wide standard of dress in Islam. However there is a traditional aspect that men should cover from navel to knees but it is not generally required.

5. Cats are permissible in households but not dogs.

6. Islam is based upon the 5 pillars thus they pray 5 times a day.

7. Ramadan is a day of fasting and is celebrated on the 9th day of the Islamic calendar.

8. Men get to marry more than one wife but women are not.

I guess there's more I could add but I'll leave it at that for now.
 
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Cordoba

Well-Known Member
Ramadan is actually a month of fasting, not one day.

The fasting takes place from dawn till sunset

This year it will start on August 11th. according to calculations
 

nameless

The Creator
Like i told you before i don't know any. And if we say there is none, that could be for many reasons. Also, war is not the only kind of violence.

I never denied that, and i believe they should be fought. But such examples are found in every religion, culture, belief system, race, country or whatever kind of group.

but badran, you are repeatedly making claims without having any idea about those.
 

MissAlice

Well-Known Member
Ramadan is actually a month of fasting, not one day.

The fasting takes place from dawn till sunset

This year it will start on August 11th. according to calculations

I didn't mean one day but when it starts. I'm still unsure though, but I read it started every 9th day according to the Islamic/lunar calendar.
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This is just so vague and fatalistic. "Stuff happens." No analysis at all.

I should've explained better. I just didn't want to go deep in the history of the middle east.

Why did Islam thrive for several hundred years? What was different? Why are Muslims doing so poorly now? The fact is that secular countries are doing so well that Muslims are flocking to them by the millions. And because many Muslims are violent, oppressive, intolerant and uneducated, it's causing huge problems for those countries.

What i meant was, that it wasn't always that way. Now, at some point things started to get bad and worse, tell we reached were we are today. If we look at history, we could easily determine the main reasons for this. One reason that i think is very important, is the huge number or wars and invasions that middle-eastern countries were subject to. It is clear that lots of countries had, and might still have ambitions here. Invasion could ruin any civilization.

Here's a key area to look at: education. Think about it.

You mean education is a factor? If so i definitely agree.

Yes, I agree. Resorting to violence and xenophobia is something that human beings are prone to. People are much the same all over the world, and what causes problems (or progress) is their ideas. There is something going on with Tamil nationalists, Hutus ten years ago--and Muslims. It's a way of thinking. And what I'm saying is that, at a minimum, Islam is part of that way of thinking. There are some ideas in Islam that contribute to Muslims:
suffering under oppressive totalitarian leaders
suffering in poverty
attacking other innocent people.

I think it's a good idea to try to figure out what those ideas are. And yes, looking at other impoverished, totalitarian, violent nations and peoples helps. But you'll never figure it out if you turn your head away and (not you now Badran, other Muslims here) just deny that any of that is Islam, when it so obviously is.

When you say Islam, you mean Islamic societies, or Islamic teachings? If Islamic societies i agree, i believe most Islamic societies today contain certain ideas that leads to oppression.....

But the teachings itself is so obviously not responsible, because many others, the majority use in a good way.
 
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Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
but badran, you are repeatedly making claims without having any idea about those.

Are you suggesting the Buddhists have never did anything violent?

Because that's what i was claiming. That in every religion or culture or countries there are bad examples that do violent things. If you thought, or i misrepresented what i said, and you took it as war, i didn't mean necessarily war. I meant violence in general.

Some cultures or countries or religions may be free of violence, though i'm not aware of it. But that is not the case with the majority of the world. Violence is a human trait.
 

A-ManESL

Well-Known Member
pls mention a few conquests(wars) led by buddhists, sikhs, hindus etc to spread their religion.

B.S-Not claiming one is better than the other, but facts should not be ignored....

You can argue that wars done for conquest by Hindu kings (for which some make the argument that these nearly eliminated Buddhism from India), ostensibly on religious grounds, were to spread their religion.

Some examples:
During the 7th century a Brahmin King Shashank inflicted severe atrocities on Boddhs. He demolished Boddh Vihar of Buddh Gaya and raised it to the ground. He uprooted & burnt the Bodhi Vrikchha where Buddha is said to have been enlightened.

" Sasanka, the Raja of Bengal, proved in the middle of 7th century A.D. an inveterate enemy of Buddhism and endeavoured a number of times to uproot Bodha tree."--[The Life and Teachings of Buddha - Anagrika Dharmpal]

Another Brahmin King Pushyamitra Shung proved to be more crual towards Buddhism. He destroyed all Bodh Vihars from Patliputra to Jalandhar. He declared a reward of 100 golden Mudras to anyone who killed and showed the beheaded skulls of Buddhists.

" King Pushyamitra who adored and sacrificed to the Devas, destroyed in the 2nd century B.C., many Sanghrahmas and killed the Bhikshus who dwelt therein."--[The Life and Teachings of Buddha - Anagrika Dharmpal]

During 16th century the king of Sinhali iseland, Raja Jai Singh, just to please SHAIVA Sadhus, killed so many Buddhists within 4-5 years that there remained none in his kingdom.

" The Buddhist literature was completely destroyed by the Hindus during Hindu revival headed by Shankracharya."--[The Mahabodhi Journal, Feb-1927]

The thinking that the above shows that Hinduism as a religion, promotes wars and intolerance, is however simply not true, as such this is a one dimensional way of thinking. Religion has long been used as an excuse for wars. The real motive is usually something different.

Similarly the Islamic conquests were actually done for political and non-religious reasons. You might be interested in knowing that when Omar(RA), (who was a companion of the Prophet and became the second caliph), armies reached the borders of India, he refused to advance them further saying that political conquest is not our aim. (With the Sassanids the war was being done due to an earlier political rivalry.)

Regards.
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
surely, buddhists would have done violence. What i mean exactly is they never conquered any people, culture, nation to spread buddhism.

May be so, and that could be for many reasons, not necessarily because Islam is a religion of conquest while Buddhism is not. (I'm not saying that Buddhism is so).
 

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
I didn't mean one day but when it starts. I'm still unsure though, but I read it started every 9th day according to the Islamic/lunar calendar.

ok, no problem

The month of Ramadan is the 9th. month in the Islamic Lunar calendar and in total the year is around 11 days shorter than the solar year, so each year it starts around 11 days earlier than the previous year
 

A-ManESL

Well-Known Member
surely, buddhists would have done violence. What i mean exactly is they never conquered any people, culture, nation to spread buddhism.

This book may be relevant, although I do agree that Buddhism because of its inherent monastic component has shied away from violence.

Regards.
 

nameless

The Creator
May be so, and that could be for many reasons, not necessarily because Islam is a religion of conquest while Buddhism is not. (I'm not saying that Buddhism is so).

any idea about those reasons? while there are cruel people all over the world and in all religions, why islam is in top position with huge margin for conquests, while buddhism is not even considered in the list? not saying islam promotes violence, but surely there should some reason.
 
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nameless

The Creator
This book may be relevant, although I do agree that Buddhism because of its inherent monastic component has shied away from violence.

Regards.

A-ManESL, agreed that buddhists must have done violence, but to my understanding they have no history of violence to spread their faith.

BTW A-ManESL, the link you provided is that of which to purchase the book, would be helpful if you get me the content of those with valid proofs.

A-ManESL, should i trust a book seeing its cover page?
 
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