osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
It is also my opinion that you are right. If otherwise is true this life is the most prepostorously absurd miracles ever.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
What do you think happens when we die
- Thread starter dfnj
- Start date
It is also my opinion that you are right. If otherwise is true this life is the most prepostorously absurd miracles ever.
Thank you for that clarification about nobody but Jesus.
I find Jesus did Not use credulity (blind faith) in his teachings but based his teachings on Scripture.
Since Jesus taught about the condition of the dead, then those today on the planet can know what Jesus taught.
In John chapter 11 Jesus taught that the dead are in a sleeping state. The dead are Not awake at death.
Jesus' belief came from knowledge (education) as found in the old Hebrew Scriptures which teach sleep in death.
Such verses as found at Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5
Even the prophet Daniel believed he would sleep before being awakened from death's sleep - Daniel 12:13.
There are some people who might put faith or believing in a reputable weather forecaster.
However, that weather person just reports on the weather.
What I find is that God reports on the misuse of His Word. ( afterlife v/s resurrection )
God is Not responsible (just as the meteorologist is Not responsible for weather conditions) for the bad or wrong reports about resurrected future life. I find Jesus did Not believe or put faith in an afterlife but in resurrection.
I think there is a BIG difference there because ' afterlife ' suggests being more alive after death than before death.
Whereas a resurrection is needed in order for a dead 'sleeping' person to come back to life.
Even Acts of the Apostles 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection....
It does Not say that the dead person is alive at death, but rather he needs to be made alive at some point.
Your ^ above ^ post reminded me of the words found at Acts of the Apostles 24:15 because there we find the ' future tense ' is being used that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection...... Showing a future resurrection for the dead.
Jesus did promise some people 'such as those of Luke 22:28-30' that they will have a first or earlier resurrection as mentioned at Revelation 20:6. As for the majority of mankind that later new-life resurrection takes place when Jesus begins his 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth.
I believe that when we die, our physical bodies go back into the earth but our consciousness continues because our soul is responsible for our consciousness. Our soul continues on to the spiritual world and takes on another form made up of heavenly elements that exist in the spiritual world.
King Solomon, who was known for his wisdom, wrote at Ecclesiastes 9:5 that the dead are Not conscious.
And as Ezekiel 18:4,20 wrote the soul that sins dies. Since the soul dies then the soul is Not immortal.
Gospel writer Luke wrote at Acts of the Apostles 3:23 that the soul can be destroyed. Only a mortal soul can be destroyed. Only a mortal soul can die. Mortal Adam simply returned back to dust as per Genesis 3:19.
Many believe in an afterlife belief that one continues on to the spirit world.
That means there would be No need for a resurrection, because the living do Not need a resurrection.
Where does the Bible say that?
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?
It seems to me that if one already believes in Jesus there is nothing to be resurrected.
Obviously, Jesus is talking about spiritual death and spiritual life, not about the physical body.
Jesus already gave us a new spiritual life. Why does Jesus have to return to give us new life?
I find when Jesus said ' shall never die ' that was in connection to ' second death ' of Revelation 21:8.
Those of us who are alive on Earth at the soon coming ' time of separation ' of Matthew 25:31-33,37,40 to take place on Earth, and considered as figurative humble 'sheep'-like people, can remain alive on Earth, and continue to live on Earth right into the start of calendar Day One of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth when even 'enemy death' will be No more on Earth as mentioned at 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8.
Those of us still alive can gain new-spiritual life, but the dead need a resurrection ( new life ).
ALL the people Jesus' resurrected were resurrected back to healthy physical life on Earth.
That was a small sample, or preview, or a coming attraction of what Jesus will be doing on a grand-global scale during his millennium-long day of governing over Earth. This is why we are all invited to pray the invitation found at Revelation 22:20 for Jesus to come. 'Come' and bring blessings or benefits to Earth because the majority of people (John 3:13) will have a healthy physical resurrection back to life on Earth. Then there will be healing for earth's nations as per Revelation 22:2.
Last edited:
According to my own research, a “soul” in the scriptural definition is a living breathing creature. Both humans and animals are called “souls” in the Genesis account. Animals are not promised everlasting life. The word has nothing to do with some invisible part of us that leaves the body at death.
The idea of an immortal soul is a Platonic Greek notion adopted by both Judaism and later in Christianity. Greek culture influenced many religious ideas......the immortality of the soul as well as roasting wicked ones in a fiery hell. Neither of those is taught in the Bible.
When we see how the traditional rendering of the Hebrew word neʹphesh and the Greek word psy·kheʹ in the scriptures, examining the way these terms are used in the Bible, it becomes evident that they basically refer to (1) people, (2) animals, or (3) the life that a person or an animal has. (Genesis 1:20; 2:7; Numbers 31:28; 1Peter 3:20) In contrast to the way that the term “soul” is used in many religious contexts, the Bible shows that both neʹphesh and psy·kheʹ, in connection with earthly creatures, refer to that which is material, tangible, visible, and mortal.
These words are never used in conjunction with any disembodied, invisible entity.
Mat I ask if you were raised as a Bah'ai?
In Genesis 1:20 it says..."Then God said: “Let the waters swarm with living creatures, and let flying creatures fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens.”
The word translated “creatures” is “neʹphesh” which is “soul”.
Genesis 2:7 says...."And God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life and the man became a living person.“
“Person” here is neʹphesh.....Adam’s lifeless body was animated by breathing. Breath is “spirit” which has also taken on a Greek connotation, being seen as synonymous with the word “soul”.
In Psalm 146:3-4, it says..."Do not put your trust in princes, Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation.
His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish."
The spirit here is the breath. When breathing stops, the last breath is exhaled, and life "goes out" much like an extinguished candle.
When the brain ceases to function, no thoughts can be processed.
These are two different words with two completely different meanings.
Why not? Can you tell me what human wants to die if they enjoy a good quality of life? It is very natural for us to fight to live.....it is programmed into us by the Creator.
If I was to suggest living in paradise conditions where no one got old or sick, and death never took our loved ones away from us, but all retained their youth perpetually, would you reject living there? I wouldn't.
Humans have been exhibiting this trait of seeking to stay young since time immemorial.
They have sought that elusive “fountain of youth” and have been enjoying resorts in places that are “paradisaic” to them for a very long time. It is a natural inclination. This is a difficult concept to those raised to believe that this life is transitory....a place to somehow 'quality' for heaven. It was never the case.
There is every reason to believe that the human body can regenerate itself forever. God provided the means for humans never to die. The "tree of life" in the garden of Eden guaranteed that death would never happen. Why do you think God barred the way to it after sin entered into their lives?
Genesis 3:22-24..."God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever,—” 23 With that Jehovah God expelled him from the garden of Eʹden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. 24 So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of Eʹden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life."
There was no way God was going to allow sinful humans to live forever....yet the programming is still in just about every heart. I am sure that even those who see no "life after death" in their worldview, secretly don't really want to die. They may have resigned themselves to death because it seems inevitable but no 'normal' person wants to stop living....do they?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Trailblazer said: ↑
If a universe exists and God created it, how could it be outside of God's will?
Do you mean that because the material world is less than perfect it cannot be God's will?
Why would you expect it to be perfect?
If a universe exists and God created it, how could it be outside of God's will?
Do you mean that because the material world is less than perfect it cannot be God's will?
How do you define perfect?
Why would you expect it to be perfect?
osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Perfect as in life would be self sufficient, without death and hunger, and vulnerability to bad things.
If God is perfect than creation should be perfect in those ways.
I can't help feeling that way.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Thanks... I have a long list of posts that came in overnight, but I will surely get to yours as soon as I can.@Trailblazer...its late here and I am ready for bed...I will reply to these tomorrow.....
@Trailblazer
Ask yourself when reading the Genesis account what would have happened if Adam and his wife had simply obeyed God? Would they have been evicted from paradise? Would they have died when there was no 'natural' cause of death among humankind? We alone were made in the image of our Creator, so as he lives forever...so we were supposed to live forever.
Where did God put us? In heaven like the angels? No, he made us to be material creatures to live in a material world as his representatives in caring for all he had created.....the Earth, the creatures and each other.
Without disobedience to God's only negative command, humans would have "filled the earth" with their kind and transformed the whole planet into a beautiful paradise. We reflect God's attributes and qualities so our own creativity would have made life very enjoyable. Once the earth was filled to capacity....who knows what God has in store for the future...its a big universe!
When he was being tested, Abraham “as good as offered up Isaac, . . . his only-begotten son.” (Heb. 11:17) Why was he willing to do this?
Abraham knew that all of God's promises for the future Messiah was to come through Isaac.
If you read Hebrews 11:19 you will see...."But he reasoned that God was able to raise him up even from the dead, and he did receive him from there in an illustrative way."
This would have to have been a full bodily resurrection because the promised seed was to come through Abraham's line of human descent. Abraham did not think that his son would go to heaven, or into some spiritual realm. He believed that death was a temporary loss of life and that God would restore that life to fulfill his promise.
He believed in bodily resurrection! Abraham had a basis for his belief in the resurrection. After all, God had brought back to life Abraham’s reproductive powers and had made it possible for him and his wife, Sarah, to produce a son in their old age. (Genesis 18:10-14; 21:1-3; Romans. 4:19-21) And God had said to him: “It is by means of Isaac that what will be called your seed will be.” (Genesis 21:12) Therefore, Abraham had sound reasons for expecting that God would resurrect Isaac.
Even Job expressed faith in the resurrection.
Job 14:14-15....
"If a man dies, can he live again? I will wait all the days of my compulsory service Until my relief comes.
You will call, and I will answer you. You will long for the work of your hands."
The resurrection performed by Jesus with his friend Lazarus was a full return to his former life. (John 11:11-14)
If Lazarus had gone to a better place, why would Jesus bring him back to this life, only to die again? All of the resurrections performed in the Bible returned loved ones to their families. None of that makes sense if they had gone to be with God in heaven. If death means going to heaven, then why do we grieve? We should be rejoicing!
When Jesus becomes Earth's ruler, he said he would call all of the dead from their graves.....
John 5:28-29....
"Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment."
He does not call them from heaven, but from their tombs.
The apostle Paul too said the same thing at Acts 24:15...
"And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous."
Both the 'righteous and the unrighteous" who have died have paid sin's wages. (Romans 6:23) The blood of Jesus is what gives them an opportunity for everlasting life in the future. Paul said there was "going to be a resurrection" not that there already was.
The interesting thing about "eternal life" is that it is not really "eternal" in the Biblical sense of the word.
It is more correctly translated "everlasting life" or "life without end".
According to Strongs...."aiōnios " means
More later....sorry to drown you......
What are the scriptures that support this?Deeje said:
Ask yourself when reading the Genesis account what would have happened if Adam and his wife had simply obeyed God? Would they have been evicted from paradise? Would they have died when there was no 'natural' cause of death among humankind? We alone were made in the image of our Creator, so as he lives forever...so we were supposed to live forever.
Where did God put us? In heaven like the angels? No, he made us to be material creatures to live in a material world as his representatives in caring for all he had created.....the Earth, the creatures and each other.
Without disobedience to God's only negative command, humans would have "filled the earth" with their kind and transformed the whole planet into a beautiful paradise. We reflect God's attributes and qualities so our own creativity would have made life very enjoyable. Once the earth was filled to capacity....who knows what God has in store for the future...its a big universe!
What are the scriptures that support this?Deeje said:
When he was being tested, Abraham “as good as offered up Isaac, . . . his only-begotten son.” (Heb. 11:17) Why was he willing to do this?
Abraham knew that all of God's promises for the future Messiah was to come through Isaac.
If you read Hebrews 11:19 you will see...."But he reasoned that God was able to raise him up even from the dead, and he did receive him from there in an illustrative way."
This would have to have been a full bodily resurrection because the promised seed was to come through Abraham's line of human descent. Abraham did not think that his son would go to heaven, or into some spiritual realm. He believed that death was a temporary loss of life and that God would restore that life to fulfill his promise.
He believed in bodily resurrection! Abraham had a basis for his belief in the resurrection. After all, God had brought back to life Abraham’s reproductive powers and had made it possible for him and his wife, Sarah, to produce a son in their old age. (Genesis 18:10-14; 21:1-3; Romans. 4:19-21) And God had said to him: “It is by means of Isaac that what will be called your seed will be.” (Genesis 21:12) Therefore, Abraham had sound reasons for expecting that God would resurrect Isaac.
Even Job expressed faith in the resurrection.
Job 14:14-15....
"If a man dies, can he live again? I will wait all the days of my compulsory service Until my relief comes.
You will call, and I will answer you. You will long for the work of your hands."
The resurrection performed by Jesus with his friend Lazarus was a full return to his former life. (John 11:11-14)
If Lazarus had gone to a better place, why would Jesus bring him back to this life, only to die again? All of the resurrections performed in the Bible returned loved ones to their families. None of that makes sense if they had gone to be with God in heaven. If death means going to heaven, then why do we grieve? We should be rejoicing!
When Jesus becomes Earth's ruler, he said he would call all of the dead from their graves.....
John 5:28-29....
"Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment."
He does not call them from heaven, but from their tombs.
The apostle Paul too said the same thing at Acts 24:15...
"And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous."
Both the 'righteous and the unrighteous" who have died have paid sin's wages. (Romans 6:23) The blood of Jesus is what gives them an opportunity for everlasting life in the future. Paul said there was "going to be a resurrection" not that there already was.
The interesting thing about "eternal life" is that it is not really "eternal" in the Biblical sense of the word.
It is more correctly translated "everlasting life" or "life without end".
According to Strongs...."aiōnios " means
- without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
- without beginning
- without end, never to cease, everlasting"
More later....sorry to drown you......
Last edited:
Bird123
Well-Known Member
I think you are getting there. When you die and go to God, you experience God's Unconditional Love. It is a Love that feels so good and so complete that you would do anything for it. At this point you see where you are and where you need to be. This is the time of judgment. You judge yourself.
Like you said time is meaningless. Who knows how long one basks in God's Unconditional Love? It's long enough to know that it has never ever been about punishment. It's about education. It's long enough to release all the hurt one has collected in that lifetime.
At some point, kiddies must go back to school. We are born into another physical life. Since we are Spiritual Beings in our true natures, we are installed into a new physical body to live more lessons on the path to becoming like God.
Living physical lives is something we are not forced to do. It is something we volunteer to do. It is the only way to become like God.
There is always more. So many think of Heaven as Eternal Bliss sitting around doing nothing with no problems. You must remember. Everything has been created through High Intelligence. With that in mind, there will always be something to do. In short, Eternity has Purpose.
God hides nothing. All the secrets of the universe stare us all in the face waiting to be Discovered. Who is even looking? This hungry student for one.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That sounds like the Christian belief about the Garden of Eden.
I do not blame you for feeling this way, but there are reasons it is not this way.
Mind you, I do not like suffering anymore than you do, mine or that of other people, and if I did not have any explanations as to why there is suffering in the world I could not believe in God at all...
Still, me and God are not always on good terms, because my feelings do not always merge with my thoughts.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No problem, I am already underwater@TrailblazerMore later....sorry to drown you......
, but I will get up to the top and respond to your posts...
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
I agree with that. Dead bodies are not conscious.
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
I believe those verses mean the soul that sins dies because it is spiritually dead, so in that sense it has died. However, the soul still continues on to the spiritual world after the body it is associated with dies. It will continue to exist in the spiritual world but it will not have eternal life in the sense of having spiritual life, nearness to God.
Jesus explained how the soul gains eternal life:
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Jesus was referring to the eternal life of the soul, not of the body. Where did Jesus ever mention the body living forever?
This explains what I believe about eternal life. The spirit is synonymous with the soul in this context:
60: THE IMMORTALITY OF THE SPIRIT (1)
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
In these verses Paul means that the soul will be destroyed because it will be spiritually dead, if that soul (meaning the person who has a body and a soul)did not hear the prophet, Jesus.
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
That is true, the body will return to the dust. All bodies return to the dust, but souls continue to exist in the spiritual realm, often referred to as heaven or hell. Those souls that are close to God will be in heaven, those far from God will be in hell; but that is a state of mind (soul), not a geographical location. The spiritual world is a mystery; it is within this world, but we cannot see it while we are still in this world... Sorry if that is confusing, I do not fully understand it myself.
That is absolutely correct. There is no need for a resurrection of bodies from graves because when bodies die, the soul leaves the body and takes its flight to the spiritual world and it is given a spiritual body made up of elements in the spiritual realm, a body that befits its celestial station.
We cannot possibly know what that spiritual world is like, except the glimpses we get from near death experiences (NDEs) but since those people are not fully dead, there is much more to it than the NDEs portray.
If you want to understand what I believe about what the resurrection of the dead means please read on this website: Resurrection of the Dead
Last edited:
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Thanks for sharing your views. I believe Christ has already returned and I do not believe the scenario that Christians believe is going to take place. At this juncture it is probably best for you to just watch the short 10 minute video which explains what I believe. Then you can ask me if you have any questions.
No one knows or has a clue. Science certainly doesn't know and doesn't even understand consciousness at this time. So all we have are our opinions, biases and yearnings. I think we go on somehow and probably live many lives if we need to, in order to learn. I think deities are irrelevant. Conversely, if our consciousness is destroyed, it's not like we'd know since it would be like a dreamless sleep - oblivion. But that's my opinion.
Last edited:
It simply compares the living and the dead....it says nothing about dead bodies and living souls for the simple reason that Jews had no such belief. Immortality of the soul is not a Bible based teaching, any more than the trinity is. "Hell" is not a Bible based belief either. Both originate in Greek religious concepts. The "soul" according to the Bible is a living, breathing entity, either human or animal.
Jesus also said...Matthew 10:28: “Do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.”
If the soul is immortal, how can it be 'killed' or 'destroyed'?
What is "Gehenna" according to your belief? It isn't "hades".
In view of Jesus words in John 3:16, what does the word "perish" mean? Jesus contrasts the outcome for those who accept him as God's "only son" and those who don't. Do you accept Jesus as God's "only son"?
How is Jesus God's "only son"?
When God sentenced Adam to death, (Genesis 3:19) he did not mention any afterlife at all; no punishment apart from death and a going back to where he came from. (a return to the dust) If Adam was guilty of plunging the entire human race into sin and death, (Romans 5:12) then if there was a place of eternal punishment, then no one deserved to go there more than he did. Where was Adam before God created him? He simply did not exist....he returned to that state, never to experience life again. Death is the opposite of life....it doesn't mean a different kind of life somewhere else. The ancient Jews descended from Abraham never believed that.
When God offered everlasting life to his human creation, the only thing they were to suffer for their disobedience is everlasting death....a death from which no resurrection is possible...that is "Gehenna".
Jesus said that if we did not accept him as the "God's only Son" (John 3:16) then the only thing a person can look forward to is what happened to Adam....everlasting death.
When Jesus visibly returns, the Bible says it would be as the appointed judge of mankind, separating "sheep" from "goats" (MATTHEW 25:31-4) and bringing his kingdom rulership to the earth. It means the destruction of his enemies and even those who acknowledge him as "Lord" and yet do not obey his teachings. (Matthew 7:21-23)
At Luke 6:46-49....Jesus said....... “Why, then, do you call me ‘Lord! Lord!’ but do not do the things I say? 47 Everyone who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man who in building a house dug and went down deep and laid a foundation on the rock. Consequently, when a flood came, the river dashed against that house but was not strong enough to shake it, for it was well-built. 49 On the other hand, whoever hears and does nothing is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The river dashed against it, and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great.”
We all need to check out the foundations of our beliefs to make sure that they are built on the rock. We will not get second chances if the Bible is correct, and we are wrong.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, maybe the soul is not used in conjunction with any disembodied, invisible entity in the Bible, but we have a new Revelation from God now and the soul has been further delineated.
“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths........
Thou hast, moreover, asked Me concerning the state of the soul after its separation from the body. Know thou, of a truth, that if the soul of man hath walked in the ways of God, it will, assuredly, return and be gathered to the glory of the Beloved. By the righteousness of God! It shall attain a station such as no pen can depict, or tongue describe. The soul that hath remained faithful to the Cause of God, and stood unwaveringly firm in His Path shall, after his ascension, be possessed of such power that all the worlds which the Almighty hath created can benefit through him. Such a soul provideth, at the bidding of the Ideal King and Divine Educator, the pure leaven that leaveneth the world of being, and furnisheth the power through which the arts and wonders of the world are made manifest. Consider how meal needeth leaven to be leavened with. Those souls that are the symbols of detachment are the leaven of the world. Meditate on this, and be of the thankful. Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159, 161
No, nobody can be raised as a Baha’i because they cannot declare their Faith in Baha’u’llah until they are 15 years old, the age of reason, because nobody is supposed to base their beliefs on anyone else’s beliefs. Baha’u’llah wrote that the Faith of no man can be conditioned by anyone else except himself.
I was not raised in any religion and I discovered the Baha’i Faith during my first year in college when I was 17.
I know what Christians and Jews believe about the soul. You can read what I posted to URAVIP2ME on this thread because I explained how I think what I believe fits nicely together with what Jesus said. I do not know why Christians cling so tenaciously to the Old Testament.
Jesus revealed a lot of new things that I believe supersede what was revealed in the Old Testament. You cannot really make it all fit together. Jesus superseded Moses and all the prophets of the Old Testament... That is why Jesus came, to bring a “new” message... That is also why so many Jews rejected Him and persecuted Him.I disagree. We have a survival instinct because we are meant to live as long as we can on this earth, and the reason we are here is so we can acquire the spiritual attributes we will need in the afterlife. That is the whole ball game. Sure, many people enjoy life along the way, but just as many people suffer more than they enjoy life. It is a crap shoot. The only way people could avoid all suffering is if this world was not a material world, because it is the material world that causes all suffering... It is true that bad relationships also cause suffering for some people but if people lived according to what Jesus taught they would not suffer from bad relationships.
We have to suffer in this world but it is only a small part of our total existence and if we have our mind on the Kingdom we can be happy despite any material travail. However, that is not possible for all people so God created a spiritual world where they will be no more pain or suffering.
“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329
When humans are younger it is normal to want to preserve life but when people get old they fight to live because they are afraid of death. The other reason people cling to life is because some people cling to the material world pleasures because they have no idea what the word “spiritual” even means... Jesus said:
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
How much clearer can Jesus be? And there is so much more, not just Jesus but Paul was very clear on this. Why then would anyone want to have a physical body for all of eternity and continue to live as they have lived here for eternity? Clearly, this is not what God has destined for us, and thank God for that.
In many spirit communications, hell has been depicted as attachment to the things of the flesh when we no longer have any flesh by which to imbibe in them. I would not want you to see what I have, it is very frightening. SCARY I believe that is how it will be for people who were unable to let go of the physical world after they die; they will be stuck, and that is hell.(Continued on next post)
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Think about it. If nobody ever died, where would everyone live? No, I would not want to retain my youth perpetually. Actually, I am happier now that I am older than I was in my youth. It should be this way if people are growing spiritually, which is the purpose of this mortal existence.
This natural inclination is the natural man that Paul admonished us to eschew.
Question: "What does Paul mean when he writes of the natural man?"
Answer: In 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, the natural man is compared to the spiritual man and the carnal man. Verse 14 says, “A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised” (NASB). This verse does not define the natural man, as such; rather, it uses the term to describe one who does not understand God’s words and thoughts. The one who can understand God’s words is a “spiritual” man (verse 15).
Dr. Henry Morris, in the New Defender’s Study Bible, gives this comment on verse 14: “The ‘natural’ man, still unsaved, cannot appreciate spiritual truths. He must first understand Christ’s atoning sacrifice for him, but even that is ‘foolishness’ to him (1:18) until the Holy Spirit Himself convicts him of its reality (John 16:7-11).” Basically, the “natural” man is one who does not have the Holy Spirit residing within him. As Jesus said, “Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit” (John 3:6).
What does Paul mean when he writes of the natural man?
It is the material side of man, their lower sin nature which is selfish. Jesus said to deny delf. It is an attachment to the world and the physical part of our natures that Jesus and Paul warned against throughout the New Testament. I know enough of the Bible to know that.
Baha’u’llah concurs with Jesus on everything He said... Here is just one example:Matthew 6:19-21 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
“For every one of you his paramount duty is to choose for himself that on which no other may infringe and none usurp from him. Such a thing—and to this the Almighty is My witness—is the love of God, could ye but perceive it.
Build ye for yourselves such houses as the rain and floods can never destroy, which shall protect you from the changes and chances of this life. This is the instruction of Him Whom the world hath wronged and forsaken.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 261
Look at the similarities between those passages... Baha’u’llah was the return of the Spirit of Jesus...
No, nobody wants to die and cease to exist, but the good news is that we don’t! None of us will die, not even nonbelievers.
"...Such earnest souls, when they pass out of this life, enter a state of being far nobler and more beautiful than this one. We fear it only because it is unknown to us and we have little faith in the words of the Prophets who bring a true message of certainty from that realm of the spirit. We should face death with joy especially if our life upon this plane of existence has been full of good deeds."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, December 31, 1932)
“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194
Christians built false doctrines around the Garden of Eden story that are in no way supported by anything Jesus ever said, as wanting to hang onto physical life and the physical pleasures is the polar opposite of what Jesus taught... How did this ever happen to Christianity?
Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
There is no entity called Satan. Satan is within our lower natures and it represents selfishness and attachment to the things of the flesh. Jesus was tempted by these things and that that is why Jesus said: “Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.”
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not interpret the Garden of Eden story the way Christians do. I do not believe in Original Sin. This short chapter explains what I believe: 30: ADAM AND EVE
Yes, God has us living on earth for a time, but not forever. This world is connected to the spiritual world in ways we cannot now understand, but those who have passed beyond the veil do understand. We were never meant to live in a physical world for eternity.
I think I have made my point about the physical body as opposed to the soul in my last post, no need to reiterate that. I will just add one more thing. The following verses are referring to a spiritual resurrection, spiritual life, not physical life.
John 11:23-27 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
Baha’u’llah concurs with Jesus, as usual... This is about spiritual life and spiritual death.
“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.” Gleanings, p. 213
In short, Baha’is believe that those who have failed to recognize the return of the Christ Spirit, when it came in the Person of Baha’u’llah are spiritually dead, though they are still alive in a physical body. The shout has been raised and they turned away. The same was true for the Jews who failed to recognize Jesus when He came down from the heaven of the Will of God and was born from the womb of Mary, they remained spiritually dead.When Jesus becomes Earth's ruler, he said he would call all of the dead from their graves.....
John 5:28-29....
"Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment."
He does not call them from heaven, but from their tombs.
The apostle Paul too said the same thing at Acts 24:15...
"And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous."
Both the 'righteous and the unrighteous" who have died have paid sin's wages. (Romans 6:23) The blood of Jesus is what gives them an opportunity for everlasting life in the future. Paul said there was "going to be a resurrection" not that there already was.
The interesting thing about "eternal life" is that it is not really "eternal" in the Biblical sense of the word.
It is more correctly translated "everlasting life" or "life without end".
According to Strongs...."aiōnios " means
1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2. without beginning
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting"
Since our life is not "eternal" as in the first definition or the second (because we have a beginning to our existence) then the third definition would apply.
More later....sorry to drown you......
“Say: The heavens have been folded together, and the earth is held within His grasp, and the corrupt doers have been held by their forelock, and still they understand not. They drink of the tainted water, and know it not. Say: The shout hath been raised, and the people have come forth from their graves, and arising, are gazing around them. Some have made haste to attain the court of the God of Mercy, others have fallen down on their faces in the fire of Hell, while still others are lost in bewilderment. The verses of God have been revealed, and yet they have turned away from them. His proof hath been manifested, and yet they are unaware of it. And when they behold the face of the All-Merciful, their own faces are saddened, while they are disporting themselves. They hasten forward to Hell Fire, and mistake it for light. Far from God be what they fondly imagine! Say: Whether ye rejoice or whether ye burst for fury, the heavens are cleft asunder, and God hath come down, invested with radiant sovereignty. All created things are heard exclaiming: “The Kingdom is God’s, the Almighty, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.”” Gleanings, pp. 41-42
“He is indeed as one dead who, at the wondrous dawn of this Revelation, hath failed to be quickened by its soul-stirring breeze. He is indeed a captive who hath not recognized the Supreme Redeemer, but hath suffered his soul to be bound, distressed and helpless, in the fetters of his desires.
O My servants! Whoso hath tasted of this Fountain hath attained unto everlasting Life, and whoso hath refused to drink therefrom is even as the dead. Say: O ye workers of iniquity! Covetousness hath hindered you from giving a hearing ear unto the sweet voice of Him Who is the All-Sufficing. Wash it away from your hearts, that His Divine secret may be made known unto you. Behold Him manifest and resplendent as the sun in all its glory.” Gleanings, p. 169
“According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.
Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it. The Day of Resurrection is not a day of twenty-four hours, but an era which has now begun and will last as long as the present world cycle continues. It will continue when all traces of the present civilization will have been wiped off the surface of the globe.”
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 222