What do you want to know about LDS beliefs?

[barnabus]

Unofficial writings of our prophets and apostles provide us with a great deal of valuable information. There are a very, very few teachings which are accepted by the LDS people as true, even though they have not been officially canonized. These are probably accepted because common sense dictates that they are logically, when viewed in conjunction with doctrines that are official. The belief in a Mother in Heaven is one of these. We believe, as the Bible teaches, that we are literally sons and daughters of God and that He is the Father of our spirits. If this is the case, then it follows that we would also have a Mother in Heaven.

See, you are making my case for me. We don’t mean the same thing by the words used here. In Christianity, being God’s children doesn’t mean there is a mother goddess who’s married to God the Father and they produce spirit children. Instead, it is speaking of adoption (Romans 8). Also, being perfect (Matt. 5:48) does not mean becoming a god, but loving all people as God does. It is clear when you read the context of Matt. 5:43-48. Also, when Christians speak of God, they mean a single being called God, not one of three gods in the godhead. They don’t mean a god who used to be a man on another world and has a goddess wife. The beliefs are radically different.

I can't help but wonder why you are so interested in those things that are not official doctrine. Wouldn't it make more sense for you to question us on things that are official doctrine and that we really do teach, week after week, month after month, year after year?

Well, mostly because these things you term as "not official doctrine," come from the mouths of your own prophets.

"Hence, the doctrine of a plurality of Gods is as prominent in the Bible as any other doctrine. It is all over the face of the Bible . . . Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many . . . but to us there is but one God--that is pertaining to us; and he is in all and through all" (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, page 474). "In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it." (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 5).

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens...I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form -- like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man....it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the veil, so that you may see....and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did." (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3).

Whether you recognize these statements as truth is beyond me, but your "prophet" sure did. Am I wrong?

 

[Bishka]

See, you are making my case for me. We don’t mean the same thing by the words used here. In Christianity, being God’s children doesn’t mean there is a mother goddess who’s married to God the Father and they produce spirit children. Instead, it is speaking of adoption (Romans 8). Also, being perfect (Matt. 5:48) does not mean becoming a god, but loving all people as God does. It is clear when you read the context of Matt. 5:43-48. Also, when Christians speak of God, they mean a single being called God, not one of three gods in the godhead. They don’t mean a god who used to be a man on another world and has a goddess wife. The beliefs are radically different.



Well, mostly because these things you term as "not official doctrine," come from the mouths of your own prophets.

"Hence, the doctrine of a plurality of Gods is as prominent in the Bible as any other doctrine. It is all over the face of the Bible . . . Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many . . . but to us there is but one God--that is pertaining to us; and he is in all and through all" (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, page 474). "In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it." (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 5).

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens...I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form -- like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man....it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the veil, so that you may see....and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did." (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3).

Whether you recognize these statements as truth is beyond me, but your "prophet" sure did. Am I wrong?

Are you ever going to stop? The topic of this 'debate' is What do you want to know about LDS beliefs? Not tear the LDS down to prove they are wrong.


Well, mostly because these things you term as "not official doctrine," come from the mouths of your own prophets.

Yes and we said prophet are falliable men, or did you not get that memo? Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. :banghead3

 

[barnabus]

While we are at it, let us take a look at the words of Brigham Young, the Second Prophet of the Mormon Church.

"I say now, when they [his discourses] are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible . . . " (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 264; see also page 95.)

"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 266). Also, "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, page 269).

"...no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 289).

"Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken -- He is our Father, and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 50).

 

[Bishka]

While we are at it, let us take a look at the words of Brigham Young, the Second Prophet of the Mormon Church.

"I say now, when they [his discourses] are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible . . . " (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 264; see also page 95.)

"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 266). Also, "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, page 269).

"...no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 289).

"Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken -- He is our Father, and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 50).

Pardon me Mr. Brick Wall. Did you not get it, men are falliable, we believe our prophets are falliable and not everything they say is true. You seirously need to stop before I reach through the computer and hit your with a frying pan.:banghead3

 

[barnabus]

So then, my question to the LDS is this, in the face of such testimonies from your prophets, how can they be trusted? Joseph Smith himself proclaimed polytheism, and Brigham Young put his sermons on the same pedestal as scripture. I don't know about todays termonology, but back in the day this was called heresy!Whats the deal?

 

[Bishka]

So then, my question to the LDS is this, in the face of such testimonies from your prophets, how can they be trusted? Joseph Smith himself proclaimed polytheism, and Brigham Young put his sermons on the same pedestal as scripture. I don't know about todays termonology, but back in the day this was called heresy!Whats the deal?

This is how my Christian History teacher summed it up

What they say is only true if

1 - It is in correlations with other statements from various Church authorities
2 - It is in the scriptures
3 - Praying and getting personal revelation that it is true.

What's your deal?

 

[barnabus]

"But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death. You may say to yourselves, 'How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?' If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him." Deut. 18:20-22

Lets see, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young spoke what is contradictory to the Bible and false prophecies. So then, can they be called prophets?

 

[Ody]

So then, my question to the LDS is this, in the face of such testimonies from your prophets, how can they be trusted? Joseph Smith himself proclaimed polytheism, and Brigham Young put his sermons on the same pedestal as scripture. I don't know about todays termonology, but back in the day this was called heresy!Whats the deal?

:banghead3 They can't except human prophets, with the same problems as normal humans? Do you not remember that some of the early descendants of Abraham where not perfect either?

 

[Bishka]

"But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death. You may say to yourselves, 'How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?' If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him." Deut. 18:20-22

Lets see, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young spoke what is contradictory to the Bible and false prophecies. So then, can they be called prophets?

I'm going to let Squirt or Jonny answer this for you.

 

[barnabus]

The whole of faith of Mormonism rests on whether or not Smith was a true prophet of God. The most effective way to see if a man is prophet of God or not, according to what God says in Deuteronomy, to see if his predictions come true. If he is a false prophet, his predictions will not come true, and he will prove himself false. Furthermore, they would speak what God tells them, and why would God contradict himself?

Example of false prophesy-

"I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left.."

The United States never apologized for anything to the Mormon Church. The United States in government was not overthrown. Joseph Smith made a false prophecy. However, some of Mormons teach that the Civil War was the fulfillment of this prophecy. It was not because the united states government was not utterly overthrown and wasted. In fact, it is still here.

 

[Bishka]

The whole of faith of Mormonism rests on whether or not Smith was a true prophet of God. The most effective way to see if a man is prophet of God or not, according to what God says in Deuteronomy, to see if his predictions come true. If he is a false prophet, his predictions will not come true, and he will prove himself false. Furthermore, they would speak what God tells them, and why would God contradict himself?

Example of false prophesy-

"I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left.."

The United States never apologized for anything to the Mormon Church. The United States in government was not overthrown. Joseph Smith made a false prophecy. However, some of Mormons teach that the Civil War was the fulfillment of this prophecy. It was not because the united states government was not utterly overthrown and wasted. In fact, it is still here.

Would you quote where you got that 'prophecy' from? If it's not in the standard works it's not a prophecy. You really don't know anything about our church so I'm going to give you some advice:

BUTT OUT. UNLESS YOU REALLY ACTUALLY WANT TO KNOW SOMETHING. BUTT OUT AND LET THE PEOPLE WHO BELONG TO THE CHURCH GIVE THE CORRECT INFORMATION.

 

[barnabus]

p.s.

False prophesy from History of the Church, vol. 5, p.394, May 1843

 

[Squirt]

See, you are making my case for me.

Your case?

We don’t mean the same thing by the words used here.

So, obviously, what you mean is right and what we mean is wrong. I get it!

In Christianity, being God’s children doesn’t mean there is a mother goddess who’s married to God the Father and they produce spirit children. Instead, it is speaking of adoption (Romans 8).

Really? In your Christianity or mine?

Also, being perfect (Matt. 5:48) does not mean becoming a god, but loving all people as God does. It is clear when you read the context of Matt. 5:43-48.

I don't suppose you would consider C.S. Lewis a Christian, since he was Anglican and not Baptist, but, for your information, here's what he had to say about Matthew 5:48: He said, "“The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) He own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful: but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said."

Also, when Christians speak of God, they mean a single being called God, not one of three gods in the godhead. They don’t mean a god who used to be a man on another world and has a goddess wife. The beliefs are radically different.

You want to talk about the Trinity? Start a one-on-one debate with me and we'll hash it out.

Well, mostly because these things you term as "not official doctrine," come from the mouths of your own prophets.

Sorry if you don't like it, but that's how it is. Joseph Smith once said, "A prophet is a prophet only when he is acting as such." Prophets speak on behalf of God; they also have opinions of there own. Deal with it.

"Hence, the doctrine of a plurality of Gods is as prominent in the Bible as any other doctrine. It is all over the face of the Bible . . . Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many . . . but to us there is but one God--that is pertaining to us; and he is in all and through all" (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, page 474). "In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it." (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 5).

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens...I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form -- like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man....it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the veil, so that you may see....and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did." (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3).

Whether you recognize these statements as truth is beyond me, but your "prophet" sure did. Am I wrong?

I'm not even going to comment on these paragraphs, Barnabus, and I think you know why. This is not official doctrine. What part of that don't you get?

 

[barnabus]

BUTT OUT. UNLESS YOU REALLY ACTUALLY WANT TO KNOW SOMETHING. BUTT OUT AND LET THE PEOPLE WHO BELONG TO THE CHURCH GIVE THE CORRECT INFORMATION.

I am getting this information from documents published by your church, Becky. What your so called "prophets" wrote with their own hands.

 

[Bishka]

I'm not even going to comment on these paragraphs, Barnabus, and I think you know why. This is not official doctrine. What part of that don't you get?

Barnabus, read our lips, or more accuratley read what we are writing.

 

[jonny]

I am getting this information from documents published by your church, Becky. What your so called "prophets" wrote with their own hands.

And who is analyzing these documents? You've done an awful lot of reading on Mormonism if you've actually read all these books you're quoting.

 

[barnabus]

My defense is simply, if Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were prophets, why would they write things that were not from God? Why would there prophecies not come true? Why? Refer to Deut 18:20-22.

 

[jonny]

My defense is simply, if Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were prophets, why would they write things that were not from God? Why would there prophecies not come true? Why? Refer to Deut 18:20-22.

You might ask the same question of all the books that were not included in the Bible.

 

[Bishka]

I am getting this information from documents published by your church, Becky. What your so called "prophets" wrote with their own hands.

I feel like hitting you right now, too bad I can't. You aren't listening to a word we are saying are you? You are just intent on 'proving' us wrong and proving our Prophet's false, am I right?

WE give you the answers but you don't even respond to them, you keep asking the same reptitive questions over and over again. Read buddy, then ask an intelligent question.

 

[jonny]

Why were all these not included in the Bible?

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/