Campbell, as in Joseph Campbell? I like the works I have read, though it has been some time.
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What does demon possession mean to you?
- Thread starter David J
- Start date
Who said? They had over 100,000 square feet of space in that vessel. It was the height of a four story building.
Remember, it was not every "species" of animal, only every "kind" which are outlined in the Genesis account. And don't forget that this is God's doing, not Noah's. If we start to put limitations on God, we make him into a weakling....a poor excuse for a God.
There is no reproduction mentioned as taking place either with the humans or the animals during their time on board.
These animals are carnivores now, but I don't believe they always were...just like us, there came a time when we obviously needed the extra protein. BTW my dog loves vegetables. She would be happy to eat nothing else. Her favorite is raw carrots.
Animals adapt to eating a certain diet so they would probably not survive on a vegetarian diet now, but if it were introduced slowly, I am sure they would adapt again, just as Darwin observed the creatures on the Galapagos Islands did. Just as the Chinese are adapting to lactose. There is high demand for dairy products in China now, where they never consumed these products before and so were lactose intolerant.
In the new world.....lions are going to eat straw. No animal will do harm. (Isaiah 11:6-9)
Never assume that anything is impossible with God as some are prone to do.
Noah was not given permission to eat meat until he came out of the ark. (Genesis 9:1-7) Rabbits were unclean for food under Jewish law, but being "unclean" prior to that meant not being suitable for sacrifice. That is why there were seven of every clean animal....three breeding pairs and one for sacrifice. With God's blessing on his own arrangement, it would not take long for creatures or humans to multiply and fill the earth again.
Why do people want to disempower God and reduce him down a weak, limited reflection of themselves? Nothing is impossible for the Creator. He created nature and can bless it and accelerate its reproduction if he chooses to. Why doubt him?
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Deification of the Bible is putting limitations on God and it is creating a false idol to boot.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
The animals were not outlined, only two of every kind save for seven of the clean. And Noah didn't build a TARDIS. This is still reality and the natural world, where things have to work within the natural laws of physics. Supernatural explanations suddenly make things less impressive, because instead of doing what we understand to be impossible it jumps to using magic that has unlimited potential to do anything.
It doesn't say anything about eating, but it was necessary or they would have died.
They most definitely were carnivore then. And, no, your dog wouldn't be happy to eat nothing other than vegetables. It would make her sick. Dogs need meat. It's their biology and digestive track. And not to mention nothing but carrots would be way too much vitamin k, which is very destructive to the body, fatal if in high enough amounts.
What Darwin wrote about takes numerous generations. And you aren't just talking about diet, it would require everything in their digestive tract from the teeth down to be overhauled.
Those lions will be weak, sickly, and die. That is what they need to survive.
God still has to work within the physical boundaries of the universe. Someone doing that, and making a sea worthy vessel that could survive and safely hold all the critters (which includes humans), working within the physical world would make that impressive. But there are flaws to it, and the only explanation is god doing this or that that requires supernatural means. That's just not impressive.
Did you not notice I pointed out Noah was given instructions on the clean and unclean animals, but that was long before Moses received the Law in order to know what animals are clean and unclean.
That is what I mean by opening up more questions. If God intended to move things along by magic, then why not shroud Noah and his family in a giant magic dome to ride out the flood in comfort? Why demand the building of an ark in the first place?
I think all you will get are circular responses that rely on believing the story without question in the first place. I have seen no rational responses and no responses that are not condescending quips about lack of faith in God.
I really got a good laugh over that TARDIS response. Good one.
Another thing that must be assumed, but has no basis in fact is that even predators were all vegetarians. The acrobatics to rationalize and justify get more and more contorted.
Of course the carnivores were carnivores and there is no evidence to the contrary. That is all creationist speculation to rationalize the irrational. If the fossil record were all the result of the flood of Genesis, then what is the explanation for finding bones that show the tooth marks from being eaten by carnivores.
If she is only feeding that dog vegetables, it is tantamount to abuse. It is not getting the protein it needs. Dogs have evolved to consume more vegetable matter than their wolf ancestors, but not total subsistence on it alone.
She is doing what most creationist do. She is confusing phsyiological versatility and developmental flexibility with genetic adaptations that evolve over time. I think it is done out of ignorance of biology, but its persistence appears to be willful.
Adjusting to a different climate is adapting, but by physiological versatility. Our physiologies are plastic enough that we do this regularly, but that is not the adaptations that evolution deals with that have a genetic basis and are heritable.
But magic can keep them alive forever without food.
God may not have to, but we do. And Noah would have too. There is no evidence that he did not. After all, the Bible claims it took him a very long time to build the ark. Why do that? Why the sort of random application of magic? A little here. None there.
The entire concept of kind is meaningless. It could be species and there is nothing that says it was not. The use of it is more speculation that demands new questions be answered and those questions are never answered except with even more speculation.
If you will notice, there are inconsistencies in the story, just as between Genesis 1 and 2. These indicate that the final copy that made the Bible had multiple sources from within the oral tradition that was being written down. That entire passage about clean and unclean animals is from a different version of the story that is fused into the main one.
The point is that it is not a requirement that this story be deified or taken as history for a person to be Christian. That is usually the point that literalists are trying to make. That a person that does not view it as literal is attacking God or not a "true" Christian. That is nonsense. Challenging literalism is challenging the people that deify the Bible and not God or the message of the Bible.
The Reverend Bob
Fart Machine and Beastmaster
Theology is within itself is a form of idolatry
The Reverend Bob
Fart Machine and Beastmaster
Yes, him.
He was an interesting person with some really cool ideas.
Sure. But Christian theology demands that the worship of God and deifying the Bible is a way to make a false idol as surely as casting a golden calf is.
We are prohibited from creating false idols. I think that people believe that they can get away with it, because it is the Bible. Just because it is the Bible does not preclude it from being made an idol.
The Reverend Bob
Fart Machine and Beastmaster
The Bible itself is an idol to some
That is my point. That some worship the Bible and have lost sight of any message in it.
Genesis 6:17-22...
"As for me, I am going to bring floodwaters upon the earth to destroy from under the heavens all flesh that has the breath of life. Everything on the earth will perish. 18 And I am establishing my covenant with you, and you must go into the ark, you, your sons, your wife, and your sons’ wives with you. 19 And bring into the ark two of every sort of living creature in order to preserve them alive with you, a male and a female; 20 of the flying creatures according to their kinds, the domestic animals according to their kinds, and all creeping animals of the ground according to their kinds, two of each will go in there to you to preserve them alive. 21 For your part, you are to collect and take with you every kind of food to eat, to serve as food for you and for the animals.”
22 And Noah did according to all that God had commanded him. He did just so."
There it is..."kinds" not "species". God brought them to Noah...he did not have to go out and collect them.
According to Genesis God used very natural means to flood the earth. He used a water canopy that he had placed all around the whole earth (Genesis 1:6-8) which would have resulted in a temperate climate all over the world......it says "all the springs of the vast watery deep were broken open and the floodgates of the heavens were opened."
So no magic.....the waters came from above and below the earth.....all of it was by natural means.
And Peter also mentions the water canopy.
2 Peter 3:5-7...
"For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water. 7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people."
It says Noah took in food for all of them.
Whoa!...don't run away with what I said...read it again. I said she would be happy to eat it...I don't give her just raw carrots, she has fresh raw mince and a carrot for dessert and any leftover veges from dinner. I make "pupcakes" too with all natural ingredients. Rice flour and eggs and veges. Sometimes its peanut butter and banana. She has allergies so she does not do well with commercial dog food.
That was the point....over time any creature can adapt to a change in diet. Darwin found the iguanas were eating algae and feeding underwater, fully adapted to a marine environment.
If gorillas and hippos and giraffes can live on vegetation and remain strong and healthy, who needs meat?
It is promised in prophesy that no animal will do any harm to us or each other.
Isaiah 65:25...
"The wolf and the lamb will feed together, The lion will eat straw just like the bull"
God is God and he used all natural means to flood the world. I find it incredibly impressive. He could have just taken Noah and his family and put them somewhere in a state of suspended animation whilst he zapped the wicked people and preserved the animals....but he didn't. Noah and his family worked hard for nearly 50 years doing exactly as God told them....and they survived a global catastrophe because they did as they were told.
If Adam and his wife had just followed the simple instruction that God gave them, we would not be in this mess. Noah, by his obedience condemned Adam and his wife and provided a pictorial example of what was to come. (Matthew 24:37-39)
....you obviously did not read my reply. I covered that point.
The Reverend Bob
Fart Machine and Beastmaster
Our concepts of God are not God
True. But what else do we have? The Bible is not God either.
We Never Know
No Slack
You may see this and then you may not.
Our courts aren't laws but they represent laws.
The bible isn't god but it represents god.
Without the bible, the biblical god would be an unknown.
Audie
Veteran Member
Didnt think to call it a filter but yes.
It was a concept that was introduced to me by a lady friend that has an interest in such things. She was surprised I was unfamiliar with it, but there is a lot I have not had time to study.
The Reverend Bob
Fart Machine and Beastmaster
We have Jesus and what Jesus told me and you to do. Even if there is no God, Jesus is still Lord and Savior. I am an atheist but I still hold and have my hope in Jesus. There's nothing that come between that faith and hope for me. Jesus is my Lord
That is an interesting perspective. An atheist Christian. It seems both at odds with Christianity and embracing it at the same time. I am not sure I can wrap my head around it, but if it works for you, I cannot think of a reason to dismiss it.