What Does "Feminism" Mean to You?

[Sir Doom]

[youtube]OpJC-VEb23M[/youtube]
Americas Got Talent 2011 - Steve Retchless "A Polefessional". (Nick Cannons Pole Dancing Debut) - YouTube

Just to throw the monkey into the wrench.

EDIT: As a side note this fella went pretty far in the competition and even beat a female pole dancer because he is just miles above her in skill.

 

[Mr. Skittles]

No one stated that economics and patriarchy aren't intertwined. Not sure how selling drugs was added to that. I still don't see how when money is involved, the exploitation somehow disappears suddenly.



Which one?



I imagine that the majority of potential porn stars could do all sorts of work if they so chose to. For a skillless woman to have to choose between a lucrative career and put out or a non-livable one where only can expect only one **** in the *** seems to me not really helping the case. The majority of feminist theorists are not anti-pornography.

Selling drugs and having sex on video are examples of people doing the "less desirable" thing to get fast cash. The only difference is one is illegal and the other legal.

In response to your last paragraph yes sure, porn stars can do all sorts of work but I have yet to me a pornstar with a doctorate that actually made a difference in their field of study or a pornstar working at burger king. The point is no pornstar accustomed to fast cash is willing to trade that in for a socially acceptable field (unless they find Jesus lol). However the point is I have yet to see a logical argument how a pornstar, stripper, escort, are exploited by men if they willing participants. If you have one please show me and please spare the partriarchy is intertwined with socioeconomics. I am a man in debt from college and other expenses. I work to make sure my credit isn't ruined so I am still trying to see how the patriarchal system is benefiting me.

 

[Mr. Skittles]

In other words, you have no idea what extortion entails. Keep laughing.

No its just that I have street smarts. Call it extortion if you may, but the fact remains if you can psychologically break someone down to the point where they depend on you, and in that state of dependency willing to sell their bodies (without forcing them) this is pimping. Its psyvhologically mind f****ing someone. Yes I will keep laughing, as I assume you've never lived in the inner city.

Here is a question for you....

How can you extort money from someone who is willing to sell themselves on their own freewill without provocation?

 

[Mr. Skittles]

One semester of nitpicking - not of men - but of patriarchy. I hear nitpicking all the time from patriarchy of scapegoating women, how women deserve to be beat because they pushed a man's buttons, how a woman was raped because she dressed too sexy, how a woman needs to understand she isn't as equipped to handle the battlefield because men are naturally stronger, how boys will be boys, etc. It's ingrained in society, Skittles.

One semester.....oh, boo-hoo.

What did the professor teach out of those "nitpickings"? What did you learn? Why did you take the class in the first place?

One semester is too long.

You weren't even there. Despite getting an A in the class majority of the time most of the lecture was a freggin discussion about the professors personal relationships. Majority of the time, the entire class was more of like a forum to vent and complain.

What did I learn?

"Dr. (Insert name here) I feel like my boyfriend doesn't understand that I am a free woman and that he shouldn't oppress me"

Crap like that has nothing to do with either lecture or what is listed in the syllabus. The feminist philosophy course was a little bit more tolerable but women studies sucked because all 115 females just complained about a) their relationships or b) how women are oppressed. If any of us men challenged their viewpoints its like a thousand cats pouncing on us at the same time.

Lets put it this way if a woman decides to be a hooker its her exercising her autonomy and her sexual rights. But if a man gives a woman the option to be a hooker on camera or take.nude pictures its sexual objectification I find double standards are being taught in women's studies so yeah thats what I learned.

Lucky for me her exams were out of the textbook so I was able to tune of the feminist rabble and just read the text.

 

[Sir Doom]

No its just that I have street smarts. Call it extortion if you may, but the fact remains if you can psychologically break someone down to the point where they depend on you, and in that state of dependency willing to sell their bodies (without forcing them) this is pimping. Its psyvhologically mind f****ing someone. Yes I will keep laughing, as I assume you've never lived in the inner city.

I do call it extortion. Because that's what it is. Pimping is extortion. You just described it perfectly. Extortion is completely psychological. When you don't give a flying **** about the harm you do to others (psychological or otherwise) you are a sociopath. All extortionists are exhibiting sociopathic behavior. Pimps make a lifestyle out of it. Therefore they are sociopaths. And you're sticking up for them? Good job. What a boon to the 'inner city' you must be.

Here is a question for you....

How can you extort money from someone who is willing to sell themselves on their own freewill without provocation?

The same way I can give a homeless man money without him threatening me for it. The second he threatens me, he is attempting to scare me (read: psychologically threaten me) into giving him my money. Do you see how that works now? I could give him money anyway, but now I'm being extorted. Use your brain to figure things out, not your damn living situation.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

One semester is too long.

You weren't even there. Despite getting an A in the class majority of the time most of the lecture was a freggin discussion about the professors personal relationships. Majority of the time, the entire class was more of like a forum to vent and complain.

What did I learn?

"Dr. (Insert name here) I feel like my boyfriend doesn't understand that I am a free woman and that he shouldn't oppress me"

Crap like that has nothing to do with either lecture or what is listed in the syllabus. The feminist philosophy course was a little bit more tolerable but women studies sucked because all 115 females just complained about a) their relationships or b) how women are oppressed. If any of us men challenged their viewpoints its like a thousand cats pouncing on us at the same time.

Lets put it this way if a woman decides to be a hooker its her exercising her autonomy and her sexual rights. But if a man gives a woman the option to be a hooker on camera or take.nude pictures its sexual objectification I find double standards are being taught in women's studies so yeah thats what I learned.

Lucky for me her exams were out of the textbook so I was able to tune of the feminist rabble and just read the text.

Congratulations on your A. I imagine you learned something then besides listening to complaints from the students. What did you learn from the text?

BTW, one semester is very little compared to the decades of research and studies done by feminists around the world. What works of feminist writings did you study in that short amount of time for you to get such a hostile view toward it?

 

[Revoltingest]

After reading this thread, "feminism" means something entirely different to me.
It means that people who agree are going to do so viciously.

 

[dust1n]

Selling drugs and having sex on video are examples of people doing the "less desirable" thing to get fast cash. The only difference is one is illegal and the other legal.

In response to your last paragraph yes sure, porn stars can do all sorts of work but I have yet to me a pornstar with a doctorate that actually made a difference in their field of study or a pornstar working at burger king. The point is no pornstar accustomed to fast cash is willing to trade that in for a socially acceptable field (unless they find Jesus lol).

I'm undecided about pornography at this point, but I imagine it's quite possible that some women are exploited while others aren't, and probably very little so now-a-days in comparison to past times. Any unpaid pornography willing engaged in is definitely okay with me.

However the point is I have yet to see a logical argument how a pornstar, stripper, escort, are exploited by men if they willing participants. If you have one please show me and please spare the partriarchy is intertwined with socioeconomics. I am a man in debt from college and other expenses. I work to make sure my credit isn't ruined so I am still trying to see how the patriarchal system is benefiting me.

Um, no where does anyone state that patriarchy benefits all males, in fact, it generally doesn't. I'm not sure how I can show you a logic argument that a pornstar, stripper, or escort are exploited by men if they are willing participants without bringing up socioeconomics. They are intertwined, by definition, patriarchy can't exist without institutionalized power. Power is in the hands of almost exclusively men. Power also manifests itself economically. 'Willing participants' is a tricky term there. There were hundreds of thousands of coal miners and railroad workers throughout history that worked willingly and were also considered exploited. Exploitation does not imply that the person being exploitative does not come out with some sort of small gain. In fact, the opposite is quite choose, as exploitation generally manifests itself as making money of someone else's undervalued labor. If a pimp has 10 hoes and they are all there willingly doing so or not, this hasn't really changed the fact that exploitation is happening.

 

[dust1n]

Congratulations on your A. I imagine you learned something then besides listening to complaints from the students. What did you learn from the text?

BTW, one semester is very little compared to the decades of research and studies done by feminists around the world. What works of feminist writings did you study in that short amount of time for you to get such a hostile view toward it?

If you want a good consensus on feminist theory, why not use the 115 women who are currently in college (a beginner's class at that) who obviously feel that something about the idea is important, but have yet to receive a full education on the subject.

I've yet to seen a critical assessment of any particular text.

 

[Me Myself]

Lets put it this way if a woman decides to be a hooker its her exercising her autonomy and her sexual rights. But if a man gives a woman the option to be a hooker on camera or take.nude pictures its sexual objectification

True dat. It´s internal inconsistency.

 

[Revoltingest]

True dat. It´s internal inconsistency.

Inconsistency is unavoidable because there are so many schools of thought called "feminism".
To compare a view from one with a contradictory view from another is rather unfair, since it's generally not one person holding both views.
But it's also unfair for progressive feminists to see the word "feminism" as solely meaning equality of rights, & that this is the true definition.
This strikes me as a wonderful definition...one I could embrace (but I prefer "humanism"). But it's just a single view among many.
People are entirely justified in decrying some of the nastier aspects of feminism (eg, affirmative discrimination, victimization mentality).
But people are also justified in seeing feminism as empowering them, & creating a more just, & less authoritarian world.
Feminism has become worse than a meaningless word....it has too many meanings.

Feminism also suffers from baggage, conjuring up diverse images in everyone. When I hear it, I think of mewling self-obsessed women
who want preferential hiring in the workplace, want easy college courses in feminine naval gazing, who decry violence against women but
are OK with violence against men, & who think that a warning not to walk unarmed & alone in a violent neighborhood at nite is "blaming
the victim". Of course, my impression is horribly inaccurate for many, but then, all of our impressions are inaccurate to some degree.

Now, before any feminists reach over to slap me silly, just remember....I'm rather unevolved, & I'm doing the best I can with my limited abilities.

 

[nnmartin]

feminism should be banned

 

[Revoltingest]

feminism should be banned

Which one?

 

[nnmartin]

dunno - all of them I guess!

 

[MysticSang'ha]

feminism should be banned

Sexism should be banned.

 

[painted wolf]

Inconsistency is unavoidable because there are so many schools of thought called "feminism".
To compare a view from one with a contradictory view from another is rather unfair, since it's generally not one person holding both views.
But it's also unfair for progressive feminists to see the word "feminism" as solely meaning equality of rights, & that this is the true definition.
This strikes me as a wonderful definition...one I could embrace (but I prefer "humanism"). But it's just a single view among many.
People are entirely justified in decrying some of the nastier aspects of feminism (eg, affirmative discrimination, victimization mentality).
But people are also justified in seeing feminism as empowering them, & creating a more just, & less authoritarian world.
Feminism has become worse than a meaningless word....it has too many meanings.

Feminism also suffers from baggage, conjuring up diverse images in everyone. When I hear it, I think of mewling self-obsessed women
who want preferential hiring in the workplace, want easy college courses in feminine naval gazing, who decry violence against women but
are OK with violence against men, & who think that a warning not to walk unarmed & alone in a violent neighborhood at nite is "blaming
the victim". Of course, my impression is horribly inaccurate for many, but then, all of our impressions are inaccurate to some degree.

Now, before any feminists reach over to slap me silly, just remember....I'm rather unevolved, & I'm doing the best I can with my limited abilities.

I wonder why it conjures up such images for you.

Did you internalize anti-feminist messaging? Your definition sounds like just about every anti-feminist propaganda piece I've ever listened to or read.

wa:do

 

[Revoltingest]

I wonder why it conjures up such images for you.

Did you internalize anti-feminist messaging? Your definition sounds like just about every anti-feminist propaganda piece I've ever listened to or read.
wa:do

It wasn't my definition of "feminism"....just what the word brings to mind.
Some things I experienced:
- A UofM, I applied for a reactor operator job at the Phoenix Memorial Laboratory, the director told me he was only allowed to hire minorities & women.
Then he lamented that they had no basic tool skills, & would pull stunts like dropping wrenches into the reactor pool. What a place to learn basic mechanic
skills, eh.....at a nuclear reactor?
- My father was an engineering manager at Ford. He was ordered for a while to hire only minorities & women.
- In my first job out of engineering school at Northrop, I was the only white male recent grad hired into the F-18 program that year.
While it didn't hurt me at all, I couldn't help but notice that gov't required massive discrimination in favor of women.
- When I was facing the draft or a move to Canuckistan, feminists were largely silent on the issue of male only military draft.
- The Women's Studies program at UofM was laughable, & even one gal I knew who taught a course in it would dis it as everyone-got-an-A-for-sharing-their-feelings

Do remember though, that these are just impressions conjured up by the word "feminism", which was bandied about so much at the time.
I don't harshly judge the brand of feminism which I favor (ie, equal liberty for all). But such experiences tend to form strong memories.

Btw, one person's propaganda is another persons truth.
And feminism will be viewed as the sum of its history from different perspectives.
I don't think anyone here has been right or wrong. Alls we gots is opinions & values.

 

[painted wolf]

Some things I experienced:
- A UofM, I applied for a reactor operator job at the Phoenix Memorial Laboratory, the director told me he was only allowed to hire minorities & women.
Then he lamented that they had no basic tool skills, & would pull stunts like dropping wrenches into the reactor pool. What a place to learn basic mechanic
skills, eh.....at a nuclear reactor?
- My father was an engineering manager at Ford. He was ordered for a while to hire only minorities & women.
- In my first job out of engineering school at Northrop, I was the only white male recent grad hired into the F-18 program that year.
While it didn't hurt me at all, I couldn't help but notice that gov't required massive discrimination in favor of women.

That does sound awful... leave it to boneheaded implimentation of policy to ruin things.

- When I was facing the draft or a move to Canuckistan, feminists were completely silent on the issue of male only military draft.

Not all of them, but certainly they didn't get a lot of coverage. "Bra burning" was all the media cared about.
I know when draft registration was reinstated for males in the 1980's NOW issued public statements against it and the ACLU's Women's Rights Project challenged it in court.

- The Women's Studies program at UofM was laughable, & even one gal I knew who taught a course in it would dis it as everyone-got-an-A-for-sharing-their-feelings

Ugh... I hate fluff classes. Especially when the subject deserves better than that.
My general philosophy class at my University was the same way.
Universities tend to require certain classes (especially required or gen eds) be fluff classes and if the professor makes it too hard they risk their jobs.
It's all about not letting the attrition rates make the school look bad and loose money. It's one of the sad facts that makes me question my desire to be professor, I'll be stuck teaching those classes at some point. :help:

Do remember though, that these are just impressions which I don't use to judge varieties of feminism which I favor (ie, equal liberty for all). But such things tend to form strong memories.

But it seems that the core of these memories... it isn't the philosophy of feminism at fault but administrative cok-ups and bone headed ideas on how to achieve otherwise laudable goals.

wa:do

 

[Mr. Skittles]

Congratulations on your A. I imagine you learned something then besides listening to complaints from the students. What did you learn from the text?

BTW, one semester is very little compared to the decades of research and studies done by feminists around the world. What works of feminist writings did you study in that short amount of time for you to get such a hostile view toward it?

I was being facetious when I said the semester was too long.

As far as what I learned from the text, well, I cannot note anything in specific detail. All I know is that I learned about the women's suffrage movement, waves of feminism, various interpretations of feminism, Katherine Mackinnon, Angela Davis, Irshad Manji are a few spoken about in the book that stood out. It was interesting but the text really didn't change my view. I still have the textbook til this day

 

[Revoltingest]

That does sound awful... leave it to boneheaded implimentation of policy to ruin things.
Not all of them, but certainly they didn't get a lot of coverage. "Bra burning" was all the media cared about.
I know when draft registration was reinstated for males in the 1980's NOW issued public statements against it and the ACLU's Women's Rights Project challenged it in court.

Yes, that's why I used the word "largely". I know that some feminists opposed the all male military draft,
but it was certainly not in the forefront when I had a lottery number of 30something & avoided emigration
only by Nixon's cancelling the draft. Failing that, I'd be neighbor to Alceste or Wirey. (They're both thanking
Jesus for their neighborhood's good fortune now.)

Ugh... I hate fluff classes. Especially when the subject deserves better than that.
My general philosophy class at my University was the same way.
Universities tend to require certain classes (especially required or gen eds) be fluff classes and if the professor makes it too hard they risk their jobs.
It's all about not letting the attrition rates make the school look bad and loose money. It's one of the sad facts that makes me question my desire to be professor, I'll be stuck teaching those classes at some point. :help:

This be boring....too much agreement. We're not giving our viewers the show they really want.

But it seems that the core of these memories... it isn't the philosophy of feminism at fault but administrative cok-ups and bone headed ideas on how to achieve otherwise laudable goals.
wa:do

I agree with your brand of feminism, in spite of my memories.
I try to let rational thought trump traumatic experience.....& sometimes I succeed.