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What Does "Feminism" Mean to You?

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I assure you, feminism itself will be happy to take the credit.

Who is this "feminism" you speak of? Surely you cannot be saying that all feminists agree the ratio of women to men college graduates is due to feminism? So who does agree to that silly notion? Rush Limbaugh? Glenn Beck? Sean Hannity? Who?

And second, if you were kindly addressing me, I do not believe you fully understood my question. I was not asking who is willing to take the credit for the current ratio of women to men college graduates. Instead, I was asking on what reasonable grounds one might believe such a silly notion.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
I know one dedicated stay-at-home dad. His name is Irwin. He is a jerk.
It started when Bush was in office, but it continues under Obama.
So which one of them is at fault?

You're so funny. It's neither Bush nor Obama's fault, but those pesky loud-mouth feminazis that don't know their place. :p

[/sarcasm]
 

idea

Question Everything
Or how about an increase in the number of stay-at-home dads? That's a good thing. :yes:

I don't think the number of stay-at-home dads has made up for the number of working moms.


read the article on the effect of child-care on kids:
http://www.child-encyclopedia.com/pages/pdf/belskyangxp_rev-child_care.pdf


then consider the incredible rise in mental illness that has accompanied the feminist movement...
[SIZE=-1]...mental illness disability rates have doubled since 1987 and increased six-fold since 1955[/SIZE]...

currently, "over 45 million Americans - approximately one in five adults - suffer from some form of mental illness."
http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/NSDUH/2k9NSDUH/MH/2K9MHResults.pdf

"Mental illness is now the leading cause of disability in children, well ahead of physical disabilities like cerebral palsy or Down syndrome..."
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/jun/23/epidemic-mental-illness-why/?pagination=false


some will deny the link between day-care-raised kids and increased mental-health issues... but this is something we should stop ignoring...
 
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Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
It could be the notion that men are supposed to be granted more positions of power, more seats in classrooms for their education and the welfare of society. Because if women are being better educated than men, that somehow women aren't being fair and letting men continue to dominate.

Under a patriarchal paradigm, of course.

Hmmm. My guess is that some people actually think along those lines -- just as there are some people, a few, who think it was a mistake to free the slaves.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I don't think the number of stay-at-home dads has made up for the number of working moms.
read the article on the effect of child-care on kids, then consider the incredible rise in mental illness that has accompanied the feminist movement:
"over 45 million Americans - approximately one in five adults - suffer from some form of mental illness."
http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/NSDUH/2k9NSDUH/MH/2K9MHResults.pdf
some will deny the link between day-care-raised kids and increased mental-health issues... but this is something we should stop ignoring...
As with all things, quality matters.
I found day care to be wonderful for the kids. They loved it.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
some will deny the link between day-care-raised kids and increased mental-health issues... but this is something we should stop ignoring...

Are you absolutely certain that it is not a symptom of mental illness to believe -- in the absence of any evidence -- that there is a link between day care raised kids and increased mental health issues in society?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Should I also judge feminism by "there are feminists that..." ?

Because I´ve find plenty of spooky there. You´ll find "______ that..." in any ideology.

I think there's an inherently different sentiment in "masculinism" than in feminism: I think that when there's a situation with an in-group/out-group dynamic, when the in-group celebrates itself, this also implicitly celebrates that exclusionary dynamic. I don't think this is present when the out-group celebrates itself.

This is what makes me very leery when people talk about things like "white pride", "straight pride", or masculinism: it's not that I'm ashamed of who I am as a straight white male; I just get suspicious when people seek to promote those who already have a position of advantage.
 
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MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
I don't think the number of stay-at-home dads has made up for the number of working moms.


read the article on the effect of child-care on kids:
http://www.child-encyclopedia.com/pages/pdf/belskyangxp_rev-child_care.pdf


then consider the incredible rise in mental illness that has accompanied the feminist movement:
"over 45 million Americans - approximately one in five adults - suffer from some form of mental illness."
http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/NSDUH/2k9NSDUH/MH/2K9MHResults.pdf

some will deny the link between day-care-raised kids and increased mental-health issues... but this is something we should stop ignoring...

This study was the result of one year of research in 2009 on what is currently being done, not any changes of incidents within a certain time frame.

Are you also discussing 1st, 2nd, or 3rd wave feminism here?
 

Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
I agree with the sentiment that the ratrace, whether directed at either gender, disenfranchises children from parental investment.
 

SageTree

Spiritual Friend
Premium Member
Sure, there is the gender thing.... on the surface.

BUT....

What about questioning and critiquing societal structure?

It's not about pushing artificial equality, imo...

Organically,
Feminism is about questioning the biases of said structure,
Feminism, to me, isn't about gender....

It's about humanity and making sure we're not holding ourselves back with antiquated ideas,
and processing through a different understanding of those ideas....
an 'alternative' understanding of the norm.

A checks and balance on our psychology and philosophy... on Us.

This is Feminism to me.


It means a lot for women, but it also means freedom for men too.
You can bake bread or work with flowers and still feel 'manly'....

It's been said, 'The oppressor is also oppressed'.

Men hold themselves and humanity back by keeping women in their place,
intentionally AND unintentionally....

Intentionally, it's obvious to see, and combat,
But, the unintentional ways happen more often.

Simply put, Feminism is more about checking ourselves before we wreck ourselves.

Just because something has been said to be true for long enough does NOT simply make it true.
Let's look again....
from a different way of understanding our place in the world.


:namaste
SageTree
 

Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
I think there's an inherently different sentiment in "masculinism" than in feminism: I think that when there's a situation with an in-group/out-group dynamic, when the in-group celebrates itself, this also implicitly celebrates that exclusionary dynamic. I don't think this is present when the out-group celebrates itself.

This is what makes me very leery when people talk about things like "white pride", "straight pride", or masculinism: it's not that I'm ashamed of who I am as a straight white male; I just get suspicious when people seek to promote those who already have a position of advantage.

In some particularly noteworthy arenas of life, men are discriminated against. I don't support masculininsm either - the exclusionary dynamic, which is present in one degree or another in feminism as well.
 

Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
Also, I am very suspicious of the idea that "men hold women back." It's true in of itself, but do not forget the role that women play in holding back other women, or the role men play in holding back other men. Anyone who has a vested interest in unequal powerstructures is the so-called patriarchy.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Also, I am very suspicious of the idea that "men hold women back." It's true in of itself, but do not forget the role that women play in holding back other women, or the role men play in holding back other men. Anyone who has a vested interest in unequal powerstructures is the so-called patriarchy.

Now you are coming closer to the truth of feminism. What is sought by feminists is an eroding of patriarchal politics and social norms to attain a more egalitarian and inclusive society. This effort has a liberating effect on everyone who is oppressed by patriarchalism and offends everyone who is committed to it, regardless of gender. For every woman who hopes to see the day gender is not an impediment to her advancement, there is a man who hopes to be a nurse or an elementary school teacher without being perceived as less of a man. Feminism supports both their aspirations.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Sure, there is the gender thing.... on the surface.

BUT....

What about questioning and critiquing societal structure?

It's not about pushing artificial equality, imo...

Organically,
Feminism is about questioning the biases of said structure,
Feminism, to me, isn't about gender....

It's about humanity and making sure we're not holding ourselves back with antiquated ideas,
and processing through a different understanding of those ideas....
an 'alternative' understanding of the norm.

A checks and balance on our psychology and philosophy... on Us.

This is Feminism to me.


It means a lot for women, but it also means freedom for men too.
You can bake bread or work with flowers and still feel 'manly'....

It's been said, 'The oppressor is also oppressed'.

Men hold themselves and humanity back by keeping women in their place,
intentionally AND unintentionally....

Intentionally, it's obvious to see, and combat,
But, the unintentional ways happen more often.

Simply put, Feminism is more about checking ourselves before we wreck ourselves.

Just because something has been said to be true for long enough does NOT simply make it true.
Let's look again....
from a different way of understanding our place in the world.


:namaste
SageTree

:clap

Excellent reply, SageTree!
 

Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
Who is this "feminism" you speak of?
Organized intent for female advancement and equality, the impetus behind laws disallowing sexual discrimination, organizing campaigns to promote education for women, and instill values of aspiration in girls.
Surely you cannot be saying that all feminists agree the ratio of women to men college graduates is due to feminism? So who does agree to that silly notion? Rush Limbaugh? Glenn Beck? Sean Hannity? Who?
This may be hard to believe, but I believe this is a genuine achievement of feminism, one of the milestones I spoke of positively in my first post. Feminism is not the only factor, but it's an instrumental one, both in securing the right of women to coeducation way-back-when, and increasing attendance. I don't see how this can be denied.

It's not the ratio I'm talking about, ti's the increased trend of attendance - a good thing. The ratio is a side consequence, men falling behind is partially because the same sort of impetus doesn't exist as strongly behind boys and men now, instead our media/society scripts for a large set of other values. Of course, there's still a de facto educational bias, illustrated thusly:


Though female attendance, and graduation, may now exceed the male figures in an absolute sense, there are still many fields in which women are grossly underepresented, due to how we condition male and female expectations illustrated brilliantly by the comic above. This is still the enemy of progress.

And second, if you were kindly addressing me, I do not believe you fully understood my question. I was not asking who is willing to take the credit for the current ratio of women to men college graduates. Instead, I was asking on what reasonable grounds one might believe such a silly notion
I find it to be neither unreasonable or silly to suggest that feminism increases female attendance to universities. Without such a socially transformation force moving minds towards higher pursuits on the male side of the equation, even though feminism oft takes it upon itself to stimulate male education etc. as any mother in her right mind ought, especially in the context of scripting boys to be more female-friendly or, sometimes, feminized, men fall behind.

The social costs will not be inconsiderable.

It's not that I disagree with feminism (or most of it, anyway) as I think it's incomplete, exclusionary in varying degrees, and ultimately self-limiting.
 
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doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
It has a lot of meanings. To me the most important is reconnecting to the power of the feminine aspects of the human experience. By that I mean deconstructing the subjugation and moral disdain for femininity and giving positive expression to the feminine aspect of human being. The goal of this mystical experience of femininity is to lead the practitioner into a fuller human experience and greater compassion and understanding, inner peace, and spiritual balance.

When we fear/hate half of what it means to be human, life becomes a shabby affair indeed.
 

Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
I agree with the spirit of the above, with the caveat that we have also been disconnected from the 'mystical experience of masculinity.' Further, connecting with a more true femininity will also put that masculinity in reach and vice versa.

Our masculinity and femininity are twisted relics of an earlier time.
 

SageTree

Spiritual Friend
Premium Member
Said it better than I, but that was basically what I was trying to get at.

It's not rejection of either, it's balancing the experience.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
I agree with the spirit of the above, with the caveat that we have also been disconnected from the 'mystical experience of masculinity.' Further, connecting with a more true femininity will also put that masculinity in reach and vice versa.

Our masculinity and femininity are twisted relics of an earlier time.
Yes, I almost added that to my earlier post. When we disdain femininity the masculinity that remains is a sick and twisted shadow of itself as well.
 

SageTree

Spiritual Friend
Premium Member
To be an oppressor you also have to oppress something in yourself.

Thanks for your posts you two.
 
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