What does it mean to say God created time?

[robo]

Hello folks:

If I understand Abrahamic religions correctly, it is believed that "YHWH/Allah created time".

My thoughts are that "God created time" is a meaningless collection of words. Time is eternal and it is uncreated.

For God to be the cause of an effect, God has to temporally precede the effect.

Any thoughts?

 

[nnmartin]

mixing science and religion doesn't work.

 

[Sleeppy]

Tough question. I'm not sure that He is separate from time. "Eternal" itself is referring to infinite time.

 

[Rakhel]

I don't think that G-d created time. Humans created time as a measurement of understanding. much like the inch

 

[PolyHedral]

It means absolutely nothing at all, because it is self-contradictory.
Namely, "creating" anything defines a period before and a period after, i.e. it defines time. It is therefore impossible to create time; time itself must exist (indeed, is brought into existence by) to do the creating.

 

[terryboy]

I agree, it means nothing at all, but from which passage in the bible says God created time?

 

[TheKnight]

Humans created time. Time is nothing more than a result of our keeping track of repeating cycles of things and our relation to them. It doesn't actually exist as some sort of eternal force or anything.

 

[robo]

mixing science and religion doesn't work.

The question of time has more to do with philosophy than with science, in the context referred to here, IMO.

I'm not sure that He is separate from time. "Eternal" itself is referring to infinite time.

Yes. It would be interesting to have theists describe/explain in more detail what they mean when they say "God is eternal". If "God is eternal" BUT the "universe began to exist" it begs the question "What was God doing before creation of the universe?"

I don't think that G-d created time. Humans created time as a measurement of understanding. much like the inch

I think the only position the theist can adopt is to say that God/universe/time have always been present. This rescues God from being a whimsical being who sits idle for an infinite amount of time and then one fine morning decides to "create" the universe.

It means absolutely nothing at all, because it is self-contradictory. Namely, "creating" anything defines a period before and a period after, i.e. it defines time. It is therefore impossible to create time; time itself must exist (indeed, is brought into existence by) to do the creating.

Spot on :clap

 

[PolyHedral]

Humans created time. Time is nothing more than a result of our keeping track of repeating cycles of things and our relation to them. It doesn't actually exist as some sort of eternal force or anything.

Of course it does. Why do you think we integrated it so deeply in our models of physics?

 

[Storm]

It means absolutely nothing at all, because it is self-contradictory.
Namely, "creating" anything defines a period before and a period after, i.e. it defines time. It is therefore impossible to create time; time itself must exist (indeed, is brought into existence by) to do the creating.

I don't see it as anymore contradictory than "spacetime began with the Big Bang." :sorry1:

 

[PolyHedral]

I don't see it as anymore contradictory than "spacetime began with the Big Bang." :sorry1:

There is nothing contradictory about that, as long as you don't try to imagine there being something before the Big Bang. It just happens that the BB is the very first to have happened.

 

[fantome profane]

It means absolutely nothing at all, because it is self-contradictory.
Namely, "creating" anything defines a period before and a period after, i.e. it defines time. It is therefore impossible to create time; time itself must exist (indeed, is brought into existence by) to do the creating.

Exactly. Even saying time is eternal makes no sense (time exists for all time?). And the contrary is just as nonsensical (there was a time when there was no time?). We use time as reference point to understand existence, but for time itself we have no reference point. When thinking about time our reasoning just breaks down.

 

[Storm]

There is nothing contradictory about that, as long as you don't try to imagine there being something before the Big Bang. It just happens that the BB is the very first to have happened.

Then likewise, there's nothing contradictory about saying God Created spacetime.

In fact, the God version makes more sense to me. How could the singularity change without time to move in?

 

[robo]

Then likewise, there's nothing contradictory about saying God Created spacetime.

In fact, the God version makes more sense to me. How could the singularity change without time to move in?

For God to cause spacetime, God ought to temporally precede the moment in time when spacetime was created. That is how cause and effect proceed. If there was no time, everything is frozen solid - like a photograph. For movement and change to happen, one needs the fabric of time - like a video [as opposed to a photograph.]

 

[TheKnight]

Of course it does. Why do you think we integrated it so deeply in our models of physics?

Because our study of science is inevitably affected by our perception. And we perceive time.

However, time is nothing more than tracked repetition. If something is in a dynamic state, then it is useful and helpful to study the dynamic nature of the thing by recording it against a repetitive cycle of events that we call time. It doesn't mean that there is some sort of external universal force called time that we are inextricably tied to.

If anything, the link you posted to time dilation proves just that. The key point is that there are observers. The clock does not actually tick any faster. But because of the motion of the observer, the light reflects back differently causing a different perception while the person is within their frame of reference. Once both observers are in the same frame of reference, they once again perceive the repeated cycle of the clock ticking (or time) the same way.

 

[Sleeppy]

I like this discussion.. Time has always been a fascination to me.

I agree that perception is a big part of it.

 

[Skwim]

I don't think that G-d created time. Humans created time as a measurement of understanding. much like the inch

For your simile, time would be better compared to length rather than the inch.

Humans created time. Time is nothing more than a result of our keeping track of repeating cycles of things and our relation to them. It doesn't actually exist as some sort of eternal force or anything.

So, when the last person on Earth falls asleep and there is no one around to keep "track of repeating cycles of things and our relation to them" time comes to a halt, or something?

As I see it, time necessarily involves change. Change in something. If absolutely nothing in the universe, or in all the universes, changes then no time can be said to exist. For this to be true, even quantum level events would cease. And, if there's such a thing as the supernatural---a level of existence apart from that constructed of at least subatomic events---these too would have to cease to be. Time is change dependent.

 

[TheKnight]

So, when the last person on Earth falls asleep and there is no one around to keep "track of repeating cycles of things and our relation to them" time comes to a halt, or something?

No. Time doesn't exist in the first place. It's a result of how we perceive things. When the person goes to sleep, they stop perceiving time. There is no "it" to halt.

As I see it, time necessarily involves change. Change in something. If absolutely nothing in the universe, or in all the universes, changes then no time can be said to exist. For this to be true, even quantum level events would cease. And, if there's such a thing as the supernatural---a level of existence apart from that constructed of at least subatomic events---these too would have to cease to be. Time is change dependent.

I agree. Time is dependent on change. The thing is that, whether we realize it or not, everything is always changing. Time is our way of keeping track of certain changes so we can pretend that things aren't changing. Because most people have become accustomed to static living.

 

[Storm]

For God to cause spacetime, God ought to temporally precede the moment in time when spacetime was created. That is how cause and effect proceed. If there was no time, everything is frozen solid - like a photograph. For movement and change to happen, one needs the fabric of time - like a video [as opposed to a photograph.]

Yeah, I get that. What I'm saying is that it applies as much to the singularity as to God.

 

[outhouse]

Then likewise, there's nothing contradictory about saying God Created spacetime.

In fact, the God version makes more sense to me. How could the singularity change without time to move in?

first you need to prove a deity exist before you can attribute something to it.


your lack or gap of knowledge here doesnt need to be filled with a deity of any shape or form