What does Socialism Add to the Economy?

[Nakosis]

And as if there is an universal we and only one way to do an economy.

If only it were that easy.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

If only it were that easy.

Part of doing this is recognizing there many different understanding of what makes a society work and not just yours or mine.

 

[Kfox]

That wasn't your original question. Your original question only asked who should pay for the medical bills. There was no mention of shame or being able to sleep at night from the point of view of the medical practitioner. Nor do I have any particular opinion about that.

Perhaps you should take another look at the post I was responding to; #86.

Illegal immigrants getting driver's licenses and voting rights etc... that's quite insane.

Imo illegals should be put in a center, cared for in humane ways (shelter, food, clothing, medical attention as needed even perhaps some schooling for kids...) and processed asap. And "processed" means either given papers and turned legal (after which they can leave the center and start their lives as free legal citizens or temp refugees or what-not) or deported to the country of origin.

I don't mind immigrants at all, but being illegal helps nobody... not the society and most definitely not the illegals themselves.
Processing is essential.

Well....... you gotta recognize, in the US the number of representatives each state has is based on population of the state; legal and illegal. Example; if the State I lived in actually enforced it's immigration laws and deported all the illegals, our population would drop so much that we would lose 2 representatives. (I believe California would lose 4) So the way the laws are written, because there are a limited number of representatives in the house, having illegals in your state allows you to take representatives from other states with lesser populations and add them to your own

 

[Kfox]

There is more to society than that.

I never suggested economics was all there was to a society, I'm just saying it is important

 

[Kfox]

As I mentioned early on in this thread, the economy is the people as an aggregate whole - and the same idea applies to "society" as well.

I disagree! Again; though important, people are much more than economics.

Also, I would question the notion that one can "put an economic system in place."

What’s preventing someone from doing this?

A "system" is really just an ad hoc bundle of laws, policies, practices, procedures, structures, rules that people tend to follow for whatever reason.

Follow for whatever reason? It’s usually something like; if you wanna be a part of the group, you gotta work within the system.

Oftentimes it's influenced by culture, which in turn influences the voting public and political system. They don't just "put an economic system in place" in a single step.

Again; what’s stopping someone from doing this?

Our system is the result of centuries of trial and error - and one wonders if we're ever really going to get it right.

Centuries of trial and error are not necessary in order to put an economic system in place.

 

[Kfox]

Obviously, you don't much understand even basic macro-economics, such as even the "Law of Supply & Demand".

Now you're just being silly!

 

[Nakosis]

Part of doing this is recognizing there many different understanding of what makes a society work and not just yours or mine.

Yet, some could be better than others, right?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yet, some could be better than others, right?

No, not in the objective sense as there are no better in that sense. And all different versions are always variants for better for some and worse for others.

 

[Nakosis]

No, not in the objective sense as there are no better in that sense. And all different versions are always variants for better for some and worse for others.

Then why bother? One could do something or nothing because the result doesn't matter.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Then why bother? One could do something or nothing because the result doesn't matter.

It still matters, It is just not objective. BTW your evaluation that it doesn't matter, is also subjective.

 

[Nakosis]

It still matters, It is just not objective. BTW your evaluation that it doesn't matter, is also subjective.

So? It's not objective.
If that is not a problem, then why bring it up?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

So? It's not objective.
If that is not a problem, then why bring it up?

Because what socialism is and if it is good, are for all answers in a sense subjective including your understanding. That is the point.

 

[Nakosis]

Because what socialism is and if it is good, are for all answers in a sense subjective including your understanding. That is the point.

Who said otherwise?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Who said otherwise?

You claimed that e.g. universal health care was not socialism.

 

[Stevicus]

I disagree! Again; though important, people are much more than economics.

What’s preventing someone from doing this?

Follow for whatever reason? It’s usually something like; if you wanna be a part of the group, you gotta work within the system.

Again; what’s stopping someone from doing this?

Centuries of trial and error are not necessary in order to put an economic system in place.

So, are you suggesting that when the first settlers came in 1607, they just waved a magic wand, and suddenly we had cities, factories, railroads, and infrastructure just like that? That's what I mean when you can't just "put an economic system in place." You have to build stuff first. You need people and some form of political system.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Example; if the State I lived in actually enforced it's immigration laws and deported all the illegals...

Just to be clear.... I didn't say anything about "deporting all the illegals".
I said to process them. I also said that in general I'm fine with immigrants.

"processing" an illegal doesn't necessarily mean to deport them, nor does it necessarily mean to give them papers and have them become actual citizens.

It just means to give them an official status. Be it citizenship, marked for deportation, temp resident, what-have-you.
Such processing / official status, would then activate certain rights and duties, depending on the outcome of the processing procedure.


I have no idea on the number of illegals in the US, but reading what you wrote it sounds like it got a little out of hand.

 

[Stevicus]

Just to be clear.... I didn't say anything about "deporting all the illegals".
I said to process them. I also said that in general I'm fine with immigrants.

"processing" an illegal doesn't necessarily mean to deport them, nor does it necessarily mean to give them papers and have them become actual citizens.

It just means to give them an official status. Be it citizenship, marked for deportation, temp resident, what-have-you.
Such processing / official status, would then activate certain rights and duties, depending on the outcome of the processing procedure.


I have no idea on the number of illegals in the US, but reading what you wrote it sounds like it got a little out of hand.

The government and the political leadership have consistently refused (for decades) to give any kind of "official status" to undocumented immigrants. As long as they remain in legal limbo and subject to deportation at any time, then they are vulnerable to exploitation, where employers don't have to pay them minimum wage or follow any OSHA regulations or any labor laws at all.

This has been quite profitable for capitalists, which is why the Powers That Be have had no real reason to change it. In more recent times, the argument has been that our economy has grown so dependent upon having an underground, shadow workforce that to give them any kind of "official status" would be disastrous for the US economy.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The government and the political leadership have consistently refused (for decades) to give any kind of "official status" to undocumented immigrants. As long as they remain in legal limbo and subject to deportation at any time, then they are vulnerable to exploitation, where employers don't have to pay them minimum wage or follow any OSHA regulations or any labor laws at all.

But aren't there at the same time any laws against employing illegals?
There certainly are here in Belgium. It's pretty much regarded as the worst kinds of fraud - regardless even of how you treat them or how much you pay them.

This has been quite profitable for capitalists, which is why the Powers That Be have had no real reason to change it. In more recent times, the argument has been that our economy has grown so dependent upon having an underground, shadow workforce that to give them any kind of "official status" would be disastrous for the US economy.

Sounds very illegal to me.

If I would get caught employing illegals, there would be hell to pay. So much so that it would likely result in bankruptcy. The fines are monstrous.
And as a capitalist myself I will add to that: and rightfully so!

 

[Stevicus]

But aren't there at the same time any laws against employing illegals?
There certainly are here in Belgium. It's pretty much regarded as the worst kinds of fraud - regardless even of how you treat them or how much you pay them.

In 1986, it became illegal for employers to hire undocumented immigrants. Prior to that, it was not. Even after it became illegal, enforcement was spotty, at best. There were no real penalties, other than fines. Employers might get caught, pay a fine (chalked up to the "cost of doing business"), and then hire another batch of illegals to replace the ones that got deported. Standard operating procedure for capitalists.

Sounds very illegal to me.

If I would get caught employing illegals, there would be hell to pay. So much so that it would likely result in bankruptcy. The fines are monstrous.
And as a capitalist myself I will add to that: and rightfully so!

Of course it's illegal. But when caught, there hasn't been much hell to pay, not in the U.S. anyway. Maybe in other countries, it's different. Maybe U.S.-style capitalism is different from how it is practiced in Europe.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Of course it's illegal. But when caught, there hasn't been much hell to pay, not in the U.S. anyway. Maybe in other countries, it's different. Maybe U.S.-style capitalism is different from how it is practiced in Europe.

I don't see what this has to do with capitalism.
It's about enforcing laws.