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What Does the Cross Mean to You?

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
The instrument used to execute Jesus is described in the NT as a "stauros", which never means two pieces of wood crossed at any angle....

This is JW teaching. Jesus was not crucified by Greeks but by Romans - and their interpretation of the
crucifixion was the cross, not a pole. JW's quote scholars on the Greek stuff, then add an ellipsis where
the Roman practice is concerned.

And the JW's also had strong opinions about Jesus and 1975, and 1925, and 1915, and 1914 and 1873...
pay no attention to their beliefs.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Did anyone ever ask him what he thinks of it? I'd be kind of freaked out if I returned and saw all these crosses I was killed on being proudly and happily worn by millions of people. Can you imagine what that would be like? Right there and then I'd zap them all into oblivion for cheering my death.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I wear a ring of my own handiwork
stainless item with a large cross on it

for me it is a constant reminder....
this world will crucify anyone
even if you CAN walk on water

A sign of oppression, obscurantism, darkness and mindless superstitions. All those things that makes me think that calling ourselves (homo) sapiens might be an overstatement.

Ciao

- viole
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I wear a ring of my own handiwork
stainless item with a large cross on it

for me it is a constant reminder....
this world will crucify anyone
even if you CAN walk on water

Non-Christian idea.

The upright piece symbolizes our upward path as we rise toward enlightenment.
The cross member symbolizes that as we ourselves progress towards enlightenment we also bring the rest of humanity along with us.
 

syo

Well-Known Member
A cross to me is a charm. Like ''knock on wood''. I use the cross to guard myself from fear and superstition.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
For me the cross has the opposite effect...I find it disgusting...not because it is the instrument used to put Christ to death....but because it isn't. The cross as a religious symbol predates Christianity by many centuries. The instrument used to execute Jesus is described in the NT as a "stauros", which never means two pieces of wood crossed at any angle.

220px-JUSTUS_LIPSIUS_1594_De_Cruce_p_10_Torture_stake.jpg


"Stauros (σταυρός) is a Greek word which in the oldest forms (Homeric and classical Greek) (until the fourth century BC) is found used in the plural number in the sense of an upright stake or pole. In Koine Greek, in use during the Hellenistic and Roman periods, within which the New Testament was written, it was used in the singular number with reference to an instrument of capital punishment...

In Homeric and classical Greek, until the early 4th century BC, stauros meant an upright stake, pole, or piece of paling, "on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling [fencing in] a piece of ground."

In the literature of that time, it never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle, but always one piece alone, and is always used in the plural number, never in the singular."

Stauros - Wikipedia

It denotes a simple upright stake, but when Christianity apostatized, all manner of false ideas began to be incorporated....this is just one of them.

That Christ did not die on the traditionally shaped cross is also indicated by the testimony of the catacombs. Dean Burgon, in his Letters from Rome, wrote: “I question whether a cross occurs on any Christian monument of the first four centuries.”

Mons Perret, who spent fourteen years doing research in the catacombs of Rome, counted in all a total of 11,000 inscriptions among the millions of tombs. According to him, “not until the latter years of the fourth century does the sign of the cross appear.”

This was after Roman Catholicism became the official state religion of Rome. Emperor Constantine who is supposed to have received a vision of a cross, and told to conquer in this symbol, was actually never baptized as a Christian until on his deathbed. He was a devotee of Zeus. He used "Christianity" (or his version of it) to consolidate his divided empire....not because he was a Christian.

The Bible itself repeatedly tells of Jesus dying on a "tree", the Greek word being xylon. (Luke 23:31; Acts 5:30; Acts 10:39) 'Xylon' simply means “timber,” and “by implication a stick, club or tree or other wooden article or substance.” That is why the Gospel writers all use xylon to refer to the staves or clubs that the mob carried when they came to take Jesus. (Matthew 26:47; Mark 14:43; Luke 22:52) By saying that Christ died on a xylon these Gospel writers indicated that Christ died on a timber, a piece of wood.

Thus the apostle Paul states that Christ became a curse to those under the law by being fastened to a xylon, since “Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake [xylon].” Paul was there quoting from the law of Moses, which required that the bodies of executed criminals be fastened to a tree or stake as a warning and which meant that they were cursed by God. (Galatians 3:13; Deuteronomy 21:22-23)

Dr. William Killen, in his Ancient Church, wrote:

“From the most remote antiquity the cross was venerated in Egypt and Syria; it was held in equal honor by the Buddhists of the East; and what is still more extraordinary, when the Spaniards first visited America, the well-known sign was found among the objects of worship in the idol temples of Anáhuac. It is also remarkable that, with the commencement of our era, the pagans were wont to make the sign of the cross upon the forehead in the celebration of some of their sacred mysteries.”

We have seen the ankh cross of Egypt,
images

which some say is a symbol of "life"....perhaps more correct to say what begins life.....the cross represented the male sex organ and the loop was symbolic of the female's.....meaning it was a sexual symbol representing coitus.

The Celtic cross....
Cush204-150x150.jpg
....some say the circle stands for the Roman sun-god Invictus, thus giving the name of Celtic Sun Cross. Others say it represents the halo of Jesus Christ. Others simply see it as a holdover from its pagan roots as a sun symbol. It is still pagan in origin.

"The Pre-Christian Cross. A vast body of evidence shows that the cross was used centuries before the birth of Christianity. The cross is thought to have originated from the ancient Babylonians before its spread to other parts of the world such as Syria, Egypt, Greek, Latin, India, and Mexico."

The History of the Christian Cross - WorldAtlas.com

The History of the Christian Cross


Doesn't it also seem bizarre to make an image of something used to put someone you love to death and idolize it? What if Christ had been hung...would we be wearing the replica of a gallows perhaps with a little figure of Jesus swinging from the rope? :eek:

Before we start venerating something we really should make sure of its origins, lest we offend the God we are trying to worship. o_O

I have several crosses including one set with amethyst in sterling that I bought on my second visit to the Holy Lands.

My favorite is a gold crusaders cross my mother bought for me when we were in Bethlehem...It was such a cold, rainy April ..

It reminds me of her love for me and connects me to a wonderful childhood of Sunday School, vacation Bible school, Christmas Passion plays and Easter Sunrise services.

You know.. Handel's Messiah and all that.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
As other members have explained in this topic, Jesus did not die on a cross but on a stake. God did not choose this symbol. It was perhaps chosen during Emperor Constantine's time in Forth Century. Somebody else chose it.

The Baha’i sources we have refer to a cross.

...during His lifetime injustice and cruelty reached such a height that even He Himself fell a victim to it, and died a shameful death upon the cross. (Abdul-Baha)

Baha’u’llah has this to say ...


. I never passed a tree, but Mine heart addressed it saying: ‘O would that thou wert cut down in My name, and My body crucified upon thee...

In John 20:25 it states that nails were used in His Hands.

25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands, and put my finger in the mark of the nails and my hand in his side, I will not believe.”

So these descriptions to me are close enough for a cross.
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
Well I think any spiritual jewelry symbol worn and or used ford decoration is fine. I like the way cross necklaces look too. But I agree it has been used pre Christian and for other religions. But to me it does not mean I won't wear it, I'm universal in my ideas anyways. I don't believe in the resurrection but I do believe there was a reason for the profit Jesus to be crucified along with a bunch of other Messiahs of that time.

Picking up the cross and following Jesus means living for God.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
This is JW teaching. Jesus was not crucified by Greeks but by Romans - and their interpretation of the crucifixion was the cross, not a pole. JW's quote scholars on the Greek stuff, then add an ellipsis where the Roman practice is concerned.

The Point is NOT the instrument used to execute God's son....it is the death itself that is important to Christians.
The Bible was written in Greek not Latin. The Greek word "stauros" was used of the instrument upon which Christ died. They knew the meaning.....Christendom doesn't. It adopted the cross from Constantine, the founder of Roman Catholicism. He wasn't even a Christian. Protestantism took many Catholic beliefs with her......they were in error then...they still are.

Since the making of images of ANY sort was forbidden as part of God's law to Israel, do we imagine that God somehow approves of this one with its disgusting history? (Exodus 20:4)
It is idolatry to reverence an image of the instrument of torture used to execute the Savior.

pay no attention to their beliefs.

I don't see anyone with a big stick forcing anyone to do anything. We have nothing to fear from the truth. If its uncomfortable then perhaps people need to change their attitude towards something that God abhors. Placing a cross or an image of anything to be used in worship, is idolatry. Has God changed his mind on that topic?

If Jesus was hung, would you like to see a gallows replace the cross?...or if he was beheaded, a guillotine?...or an axe or spear? Seriously, Christendom has people so indoctrinated that they can't see their beliefs being manipulated. This is the only "Christianity" that people today know.....it is nothing like the one Jesus and the apostles started.....but its no surprise that this is our reality.....just as Judaism was corrupted, so Jesus foretold that Christianity too would suffer from the same kind of corruption....adopting man-made religious traditions instead of sticking to God's word. Why does Christendom pretend that this never happened? True Christianity is united, not fragmented. (1 Corinthians 1:10)

People must judge the truth for themselves, and it wasn't going to be easy because we have a powerful enemy pulling all the strings behind the scenes. (1 John 5:19) His main MO is deception. He can make bad things look good and vice versa. If he can turn a whole nation against its own Messiah, making a perfect man appear to be the greatest threat to their religion, then imagine what he can do to Christianity......we can see his ugly hand in all of it. Just look at history. Christendom's foundation is Roman Catholicism...the mother of many daughters. We are commanded to "get out of her" or we will share in her fate. (Revelation 18:4)
Who will heed the warning?
 

Shad

Veteran Member
I wear a ring of my own handiwork
stainless item with a large cross on it

for me it is a constant reminder....
this world will crucify anyone
even if you CAN walk on water

A symbol of a religion, nothing more.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
The Point is NOT the instrument used to execute God's son....it is the death itself that is important to Christians.
The Bible was written in Greek not Latin. The Greek word "stauros" was used of the instrument upon which Christ died. They knew the meaning.....Christendom doesn't. It adopted the cross from Constantine, the founder of Roman Catholicism. He wasn't even a Christian. Protestantism took many Catholic beliefs with her......they were in error then...they still are.

Since the making of images of ANY sort was forbidden as part of God's law to Israel, do we imagine that God somehow approves of this one with its disgusting history? (Exodus 20:4)
It is idolatry to reverence an image of the instrument of torture used to execute the Savior.



I don't see anyone with a big stick forcing anyone to do anything. We have nothing to fear from the truth. If its uncomfortable then perhaps people need to change their attitude towards something that God abhors. Placing a cross or an image of anything to be used in worship, is idolatry. Has God changed his mind on that topic?

If Jesus was hung, would you like to see a gallows replace the cross?...or if he was beheaded, a guillotine?...or an axe or spear? Seriously, Christendom has people so indoctrinated that they can't see their beliefs being manipulated. This is the only "Christianity" that people today know.....it is nothing like the one Jesus and the apostles started.....but its no surprise that this is our reality.....just as Judaism was corrupted, so Jesus foretold that Christianity too would suffer from the same kind of corruption....adopting man-made religious traditions instead of sticking to God's word. Why does Christendom pretend that this never happened? True Christianity is united, not fragmented. (1 Corinthians 1:10)

People must judge the truth for themselves, and it wasn't going to be easy because we have a powerful enemy pulling all the strings behind the scenes. (1 John 5:19) His main MO is deception. He can make bad things look good and vice versa. If he can turn a whole nation against its own Messiah, making a perfect man appear to be the greatest threat to their religion, then imagine what he can do to Christianity......we can see his ugly hand in all of it. Just look at history. Christendom's foundation is Roman Catholicism...the mother of many daughters. We are commanded to "get out of her" or we will share in her fate. (Revelation 18:4)
Who will heed the warning?

The Harp of God by JW's esteemed leader Rutherford states, "The cross of Christ is the greatest pivotal truth
of the divine arrangement..."
This changed in 1932.
Constantine had nothing do with the cross.
Earliest Roman depiction of crucifixion shows the cross.
And it was latter Rome, not early Greece, who crucified Jesus.
JW's will quote the Imperial Bible Dictionary where it says the [stauros] meant a pole. "Even amongst the Romans
the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole."
But what JW's leave out is this "but a modification as the dominion and usages of Rome extended themselves
through Greek speaking countries." This was the cross beam.
Repeat - JW's left out the crucial sentence which defines the cross.

As an aside - I suspect there's an illusion to the cross depiction in the bible where it speaks of the Messiah's
"visage" being "marred" and this astonishing even kings. Imagine what the Aztec and Incas thought when
they saw the white man's God was someone strung up on a cross.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The Harp of God by JW's esteemed leader Rutherford states, "The cross of Christ is the greatest pivotal truth
of the divine arrangement..."
This changed in 1932.

We have learned a lot since 1932.....thank God! Truth is revealed progressively, if you have any knowledge of scripture, you would understand that Bible truth is not reveal all at once.We have adjusted our thinking on many things since then. (Proverbs 4:18)

Constantine had nothing do with the cross.

The Battle of the Milvian Bridge took place between the Roman Emperors Constantine I and Maxentius on 28 October 312. . . . According to chroniclers such as Eusebius of Caesarea and Lactantius, the battle marked the beginning of Constantine's conversion to Christianity. Eusebius of Caesarea recounts that Constantine and his soldiers had a vision sent by the Christian God. This was interpreted as a promise of victory if the sign of the Chi-Rho, the first two letters of Christ's name in Greek, was painted on the soldiers' shields."
135px-Simple_Labarum2.svg.png
In time, this symbol morphed into what the Catholic Church uses to represent Christianity.
112px-Anastasis_Pio_Christiano_Inv31525.jpg
and later, the Protestant church
117px-Diocese_of_Leeds_arms.svg.png


Early symbols similar to the Chi Rho were the Staurogram ( ) and the IX monogram ( ).
Chi Rho - Wikipedia

Earliest Roman depiction of crucifixion shows the cross.

The Romans had crosses of various configurations, including an upright stake.
formsofcrossesr1c1.jpg


Roman Forms of Crucifixion
There is no cross mentioned in the Bible. A "stauros" is an upright stake, not a cross.

And it was latter Rome, not early Greece, who crucified Jesus.

So? What does that have to do with anything? The Roman were notorious for their cruelty. Their executions were slow and painful...only when they had had enough suffering were the victims put out of their misery by having their legs broken, which led to suffocation and death. Jesus did not have a bone broken as it was prophesied.

JW's will quote the Imperial Bible Dictionary where it says the [stauros] meant a pole. "Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole."
But what JW's leave out is this "but a modification as the dominion and usages of Rome extended themselves
through Greek speaking countries." This was the cross beam.

You misunderstand....we are giving people indoctrinated with the image of a cross, something different to think about. Since there is no mention of a cross in the Bible itself, and since its roots predate Christianity by centuries, (with very grubby origins) we offered something from an independent source that confirmed that it was not necessarily a cross on which Jesus died. We did not lie. And we exposed the idolatry of making such an image for use in worship.

Repeat - JW's left out the crucial sentence which defines the cross.

Correction, we gave people another truth to consider. The cross is deeply entrenched in Christendom's psyche....but as it turns out, it became idolatrous and was not based on scripture at all. God had strong laws against any kind of idolatry.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
We have learned a lot since 1932.....thank God! Truth is revealed progressively, if you have any knowledge of scripture, you would understand that Bible truth is not reveal all at once.We have adjusted our thinking on many things since then. (Proverbs 4:18).

This is called "new light"
ALL past end-time predictions didn't just fail - they were false from the start, and
later presented as "old light."
Military conscription and blood transfusions are gradually morphing due to this
"new light" despite the jailing and death of many people.
I just don't buy it.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
So? What does that have to do with anything? The Roman were notorious for their cruelty. Their executions were slow and painful...only when they had had enough suffering were the victims put out of their misery by having their legs broken, which led to suffocation and death. Jesus did not have a bone broken as it was prophesied.

It has a lot to do with it. Romans appropriated Greek culture and adapted it.
They chose a cross-beam approach to staking people - they just used a
Greek word, that's all.
19th Century "hanging" was different to earlier forms of "hanging" as it
involved simply snapping the neck. This is a perfect analogy of the Greek
pole and Romanan cross issue.
The "new light" about the cross, and the misquoting of authorities should
tell you something important.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
...during His lifetime injustice and cruelty reached such a height that even He Himself fell a victim to it, and died a shameful death upon the cross. (Abdul-Baha)
Baha’u’llah has this to say ...
I never passed a tree, but Mine heart addressed it saying: ‘O would that thou wert cut down in My name, and My body crucified upon thee ..

In John 20:25 it states that nails were used in His Hands.
25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands, and put my finger in the mark of the nails and my hand in his side, I will not believe.”
So these descriptions to me are close enough for a cross.
Why did Bahaullah and Abdul Baha always say inane things? For Christians the death of Jesus is paramount glory and not a shame. Bahai God instructed Bahaullah wrongly. Do the Bahais think that they can bring about universal brotherhood by opposing all other religions? Bahai peace is just a sham, they are harbingers of conflict.

The Bible was edited in Fourth Century. Nails do not prove a cross. The hands could be nailed even on a stake.

WTKnowledgeStake.JPG
 
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Samana Johann

Restricted by request
for me it is a constant reminder....
this world will crucify anyone
even if you CAN walk on water

That's a good use of a symbol:

Upajjhatthana Sutta: Subjects for Contemplation

"There are these five facts that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained. Which five?

"'I am subject to aging, have not gone beyond aging.' This is the first fact that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained.

"'I am subject to illness, have not gone beyond illness.' ...

"'I am subject to death, have not gone beyond death.' ...

"'I will grow different, separate from all that is dear and appealing to me.' ...

"'I am the owner of my actions,[1] heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir.' ...

"These are the five facts that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained.

"Now, based on what line of reasoning should one often reflect...

that 'I am subject to death, have not gone beyond death'? There are beings who are intoxicated with a [typical] living person's intoxication with life. Because of that intoxication with life, they conduct themselves in a bad way in body... in speech... and in mind. But when they often reflect on that fact, that living person's intoxication with life will either be entirely abandoned or grow weaker...

More on Aging; Deathless; Divine messengers; Grief; Illness; Maranassati (mindfulness of death); Murder; Samvega (spiritual urgency).
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Why did Bahaullah and Abdul Baha always say inane things? For Christians the death of Jesus is paramount glory and not a shame. Bahai God instructed Bahaullah wrongly. Do the Bahais think that they can bring about universal brotherhood by opposing all other religions? Bahai peace is just a sham, they are harbingers of conflict.

The Bible was edited in Fourth Century. Nails do not prove a cross. The hands could be nailed even on a stake.

WTKnowledgeStake.JPG

By shameful death my understand is meant shame upon humanity for opposing the Essence of Goodness.

We oppose no religion but believe that true religion must be in accordance with science and reason.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
You refute what each and every religion considers as sacrosanct. You find Bahaullahs description of the visit of Maid of Heaven in Siyah Chal as science or reason?
 
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