What does the fossil record say?

[painted wolf]

Who are you asking?

Well, what is your opinion? How did an ash fall layer get in the middle of what is supposed to be a flood?

wa:do

 

[wilsoncole]

Either way, it would have nothing to do with the subject of this thread, which is FOSSILS AND EVOLUTION.

You don’t seem to get it. If the Miller experiments had succeeded, it would only have proved that life had to be created. That same principle applies today.
Are you denying that?

It's not done by any being, but by nature.

Done - by nature!
How do you define nature?
(Please don't use the word "natural.")

 

[wilsoncole]

Well, what is your opinion? How did an ash fall layer get in the middle of what is supposed to be a flood?
wa:do

Why are you asking me? Did I say something about a flood? Or is this the initial salvo of an attack on the Bible?

You wouldn't want to go there with me, Sir.
You won't find me to be a pushover.

 

[outhouse]

You wouldn't want to go there with me, Sir.

You won't find me to be a pushover.

genesis is fiction, how can you base real human evolution OFF a creation myth ?

 

[painted wolf]

Why are you asking me? Did I say something about a flood?

Seeing as this is a thread on the fossil record... it was a relevant question.
I am trying to engage you and others in the actual topic of the thread... if you don't want to discuss the topic of the thread, then why are you here?

Or is this the initial salvo of an attack on the Bible?

I don't have any intention of attacking a book of faith.

You wouldn't want to go there with me, Sir.
You won't find me to be a pushover.

Actually I'm a Ms.

And you are awfully touchy... you seem to take everything as a personal attack. You should calm down and try to enjoy the conversation. I'm not out to get you or your religion.

wa:do

 

[wilsoncole]

genesis is fiction, how can you base real human evolution OFF a creation myth ?

Wouldn't dream of it!
Think a long time before speaking.

If what you say is true, that would mean that Abraham never existed - right?

Just to see how much of a fiction Genesis is, let's take a look at some archeological findings dealing with people and places mentioned in Genesis:

"French archaeologist André Parrot carried out extensive diggings on the site of the ancient royal city of Mari, on the Middle Euphrates.
The city-state of Mari was one of the dominant powers in Upper Mesopotamia in the early second millennium　B.C.E., until it was taken and destroyed by Babylonian King Hammurabi. In the ruins of the huge palace discovered there, the French team of archaeologists found over 20,000 clay tablets. Some of these cuneiform tablets mention cities by the name of Peleg, Serug, Nahor, Terah and Haran. Interestingly, all these names occur in the Genesis account as names of Abraham’s relatives.—Gen. 11:17-26.​

Commenting on this similarity of early proper names, John Bright writes in his History of Israel: "In none of these cases do we .　.　. have a mention of the Biblical patriarchs themselves. But the profusion of such evidence from contemporary documents shows clearly that their names fit perfectly in the nomenclature of the Amorite population of the early second millennium, rather than in that of any later day. The patriarchal narratives are thus in this respect quite authentic."​

As recently as 1976, Italian and Syrian archaeologists identified, in northern Syria, the ancient city-state of Ebla. Like Mari, Ebla is not mentioned in the Bible, but both names appear in ancient texts dating back to the patriarchal period. So what did the digger’s spade uncover on this new site? In the library of the royal palace, thousands of clay tablets were found, dating from the late third or early second millennium before the Common Era.

Reporting on this discovery in its March 19, 1979, issue, the French newsweekly Le Point stated: "The proper names are amazingly similar [to those in the Scriptures]. In the Bible we find ‘Abraham;’ in the Ebla tablets, ‘Ab-ra-um;’ Esau—E-sa-um; Michael—Mi-ki-ilu; David—Da-u-dum; Ishmael—Ish-ma-ilum; Israel—Ish-ra-ilu. The archives of Ebla also contain the names of Sodom and Gomorrah, cities mentioned in the Bible, but whose historicity was long challenged by scholars. .　.　. What is more, the tablets list cities in exactly the same order in which they are mentioned in the Old Testament: Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboiim and Bela [Gen. 14:2]."

According to Boyce Rensberger, writing in the New York Times, "some biblical scholars believe [the Ebla tablets] rival the Dead Sea Scrolls in authenticating and adding to knowledge of life in biblical .　.　. times." (WT 80 10/1 pp. 7-8)

There's a lot more, Sir.

 

[painted wolf]

If what you say is true, that would mean that Abraham never existed - right?

Just to see how much of a fiction Genesis is, let's take a look at some archeological findings dealing with people and places mentioned in Genesis:

Be careful with your logic... by this standard Hercules was a real person and the son of Zeus because the myths list real places. Not to mention Achilles and his crew.

wa:do

 

[JustWondering2]

Wilson,

Again what does that have to do with to OP? Does your book speak of fossils? If not why even mention it?
Just Wondering?

 

[outhouse]

There's a lot more, Sir.

yes the OT is built on loose partial non fiction.

we dont even know much about david and king soloman.

they may have found a town site from that time but that does not prove the fictinal story's.

They also found a copper mine and smelting facility from that period,,, but that doesnt mean it was his and we also know that at that time he claimed to have 900 wives and there was not 1000 total people living in the whole area at that time so there is lies and or fiction. I happen to know the way the put the fables together it was mostly fiction.

You cant base creation from the bible, there is not one shred of truth in that respect. Its ancient mans imagination and nothing more. genesis was told around campfires for 300-500 years before it was written down and many books were compiled to get the verses we have now with 5 different authors.

creation is fiction and science is absolutely correct with human evolution.

your lack of education is obvious in biblical matters as well as science to base a thought with any credibility.

 

[Autodidact]

You don’t seem to get it. If the Miller experiments had succeeded, it would only have proved that life had to be created. That same principle applies today.

No, you don't get that IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS THREAD.

Are you denying that?

I'm denying that is has anything to do with this thread.

 

[Autodidact]

Done - by nature!
How do you define nature?
(Please don't use the word "natural.")

Nature is the material world, particularly as without human intervention. That which is, and can be perceived with the senses.

 

[Autodidact]

Wouldn't dream of it!
Think a long time before speaking.

If what you say is true, that would mean that Abraham never existed - right?

Just to see how much of a fiction Genesis is, let's take a look at some archeological findings dealing with people and places mentioned in Genesis:

"French archaeologist André Parrot carried out extensive diggings on the site of the ancient royal city of Mari, on the Middle Euphrates.
The city-state of Mari was one of the dominant powers in Upper Mesopotamia in the early second millennium　B.C.E., until it was taken and destroyed by Babylonian King Hammurabi. In the ruins of the huge palace discovered there, the French team of archaeologists found over 20,000 clay tablets. Some of these cuneiform tablets mention cities by the name of Peleg, Serug, Nahor, Terah and Haran. Interestingly, all these names occur in the Genesis account as names of Abraham’s relatives.—Gen. 11:17-26.​

Commenting on this similarity of early proper names, John Bright writes in his History of Israel: "In none of these cases do we .　.　. have a mention of the Biblical patriarchs themselves. But the profusion of such evidence from contemporary documents shows clearly that their names fit perfectly in the nomenclature of the Amorite population of the early second millennium, rather than in that of any later day. The patriarchal narratives are thus in this respect quite authentic."​

As recently as 1976, Italian and Syrian archaeologists identified, in northern Syria, the ancient city-state of Ebla. Like Mari, Ebla is not mentioned in the Bible, but both names appear in ancient texts dating back to the patriarchal period. So what did the digger’s spade uncover on this new site? In the library of the royal palace, thousands of clay tablets were found, dating from the late third or early second millennium before the Common Era.

Reporting on this discovery in its March 19, 1979, issue, the French newsweekly Le Point stated: "The proper names are amazingly similar [to those in the Scriptures]. In the Bible we find ‘Abraham;’ in the Ebla tablets, ‘Ab-ra-um;’ Esau—E-sa-um; Michael—Mi-ki-ilu; David—Da-u-dum; Ishmael—Ish-ma-ilum; Israel—Ish-ra-ilu. The archives of Ebla also contain the names of Sodom and Gomorrah, cities mentioned in the Bible, but whose historicity was long challenged by scholars. .　.　. What is more, the tablets list cities in exactly the same order in which they are mentioned in the Old Testament: Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboiim and Bela [Gen. 14:2]."

According to Boyce Rensberger, writing in the New York Times, "some biblical scholars believe [the Ebla tablets] rival the Dead Sea Scrolls in authenticating and adding to knowledge of life in biblical .　.　. times." (WT 80 10/1 pp. 7-8)

There's a lot more, Sir.

Evoluton? Fossils? Anything at all?

 

[fantome profane]

Be careful with your logic... by this standard Hercules was a real person and the son of Zeus because the myths list real places. Not to mention Achilles and his crew.

wa:do

Not to mention CSI Miami

 

[wilsoncole]

yes the OT is built on loose partial non fiction.

I see a definite shift in your position here. Now it’s the OT that is “loose partial non fiction.“
I don’t even know what that means!
So now I must ask you: How much of it is fiction? Do you think you are able to pick out the parts that are fictional? Be careful how you pick. You might be wrong and embarrass yourself.

we dont even know much about david and king soloman.

You can only speak for yourself. YOU don’t know.
Take note:
"In the summer of 1993, an archaeological team, led by Professor Avraham Biran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avraham_Biran), cleared an area outside the outer gate of ancient Dan. They uncovered a paved plaza. A black basalt stone protruding from the ground was easily removed. When the stone was turned toward the afternoon sun, the letters sprang to life. “Oh, my God, we have an inscription!” Professor Biran exclaimed!”
“There Avraham Biran and his team of archaeologists found a remarkable inscription from the ninth century　B.C.E. that refers both to the ‘House of David’ and to the ‘King of Israel.’ This is the first time that the name David has been found in any ancient inscription outside the Bible. That the inscription refers not simply to a ‘David’ but to the House of David, the dynasty of the great Israelite king, is even more remarkable.
“‘King of Israel’ is a term frequently found in the Bible, especially in the Book of Kings. This, however, may be the oldest extra-Biblical reference to Israel in Semitic script. If this inscription proves anything, it shows that both Israel and Judah, contrary to the claims of some scholarly Biblical minimizers, were important kingdoms at this　time.” (Biblical Archaeology Review magazine, March/April 1994)

they may have found a town site from that time but that does not prove the fictinal story's.

Sir, fictional stories cannot be proven. I am prepared to offer evidence that a lot of what you claim is fiction has historical, geographical, archeological and genealogical foundations.

They also found a copper mine and smelting facility from that period,,, but that doesnt mean it was his

What in the world are you talking about? You are quite serious about chasing your tail - aren’t you?

and we also know that at that time he claimed to have 900 wives

WHO claimed to have 900 wives? Would you mind showing me where, in the Bible, that claim was made?

and there was not 1000 total people living in the whole area at that time so there is lies and or fiction.

Listen - when Israel left the land of Egypt in 1513 B.C.E. there were “six hundred thousand able-bodied men on foot,….” (Exodus 12:37) not counting the women and children.
In the time of David the census showed: “all Israel amounted to a million one hundred thousand men drawing sword, .　.　.” (1 Chronicles 21:5) not counting the women and children.

I happen to know the way the put the fables together it was mostly fiction.

How come you didn’t “happen to know” those figures?

You cant base creation from the bible, there is not one shred of truth in that respect. Its ancient mans imagination and nothing more. genesis was told around campfires for 300-500 years before it was written down and many books were compiled to get the verses we have now with 5 different authors.

I am interested to see the proof you have for these claims.
Can’t prove them? Then why make them?

creation is fiction and science is absolutely correct with human evolution.

Who fed you today, Mr Outhouse?

your lack of education is obvious in biblical matters as well as science to base a thought with any credibility.

I will not trade insults with you sir. It is undignified.
You really shouldn’t spit in the wind, Mr Outhouse. It only comes back on you.

 

[painted wolf]

Shall we address the fossil record? :sarcastic

What about those Ashfall fossil beds eh?

How about the uniform stratigraphic nature of the fossil record? Why is it that we find basal critters at the bottom and modern critters at the top?

wa:do

 

[wilsoncole]

Nature is the material world, particularly as without human intervention. That which is, and can be perceived with the senses.

Materialism is nature? It is evident that humans cannot endow themselves with certain abilities.
So love, hate, envy, empathy, abstract thinking, insight, wisdom, altruism, hope, peace, imagination, desire, etc, etc, etc are all unnatural? Which of your 5 senses can perceive all of these qualities?
Which of our animal "ancestors" possessed these qualities?
If they didn't have them, we couldn't inherit them - right?
How did humans get the ability to ENJOY life?
How does evolution explain the acquisition of those abilities?

 

[wilsoncole]

Shall we address the fossil record? :sarcastic

What about those Ashfall fossil beds eh?

How about the uniform stratigraphic nature of the fossil record? Why is it that we find basal critters at the bottom and modern critters at the top?

wa:do

According to the book of Genesis, outside the ark “all flesh that was moving upon the earth expired” during the worldwide flood. (Gen. 7:21)
Is there widespread evidence of such a watery destruction of living creatures?


(1) NOW you resort to chronology! It seems to be quite convenient for you to cite fossils chronologically when it suits you.
I do not know if that is true and I have no reason to take your word for it but I really doubt that you could find that state of affairs all over the earth.

Here's why:
(2) Interestingly, in the United States, England, France, southern Spain, Germany, Russia and elsewhere huge fissures in the earth have been found filled with the remains of large numbers of animals. They include mixtures of bones of the elephant, rhinoceros, hippopotamus, reindeer, horse, hog, bear, and many others.

One such cavern near Palermo, Sicily, yielded more than twenty tons of bones for commercial purposes.
Often these fissures are located on isolated hills at considerable height where animals would be expected to flee from floodwaters that “kept increasing greatly upon the earth.” (Gen.7:18)

With regard to the variety of animal remains found in one bone cave, the book Earth’s Most Challenging Mysteries asks:
(3) “What made rabbits run into the same cave as coyotes? And an antelope with a wolverine and a grizzly? Bones of the mastodon were found, also a few reptiles . . . The whole mass of bones was covered and preserved by a flood deposit of gravel and rocks.”

(4) An extraordinary testimony to the widespread watery destruction of animal life is the remains of the mammoths found throughout northern Siberia and into Alaska. Hundreds of thousands (some estimate as many as 5,000,000) of these creatures were rapidly buried and quick-frozen in icy muck. They are sometimes found in a near-perfect state of preservation, with undigested tropical vegetation in their stomachs and between their teeth. As to the type of catastrophe that could sweep away creatures over so widespread an area, Earth’s Most Challenging Mysteries observes:

“There is one significant fact that is always connected with every dinosaur fossil and every mammoth fossil, and that is that every fossil is almost invariably dug out of water-laid sedimentary rock. Every fossil is either dug out of shale, which is just floodwater mud hardened into rock, or out of floodwater sand hardened into sandstone, or frozen into permafrost.”

(6)The book Target: Earth notes with regard to the Yukon district of North America:
“The presence of bones, trees, peat, and other debris all mixed together down to a depth of nearly 100 feet, points to a cataclysmic flood of tremendous proportions that must have moved across the land, grinding the bodies of the animals with stones and trees and spreading the whole out over the Yukon Valley.” And when the destruction had been accomplished, what happened to the floodwaters?

(7) A sinking of the sea basins would cause the waters to collect there, allowing dry land to appear again. There is evidence on the seabed that very deep sections were once dry land.

(8) Water laid materials formed rock layers which cover much of the earth's surface.
These parallel strata do not have evidence of erosion between them. They must have been laid down rapidly without time for erosion in between. Vast areas were covered. Nothing like this is happening today. Even the largest rivers cover only small areas in their floods and deltas. Where did all the water laid materials come from that became sedimentary rock?

(9) Sedimentary rocks are not now being laid down on the bottoms of oceans. There was a world-wide flood that tore the surface of the world covering vast areas of the world with stratum upon stratum in rapid succession without time for erosion in between.
Tides swept the earth. Volcanic eruptions sent forth great waves of water, tsunamis, and spewed forth lava, ash and dust upon the earth. The great fountains of the great deep burst forth. The waters above the earth came down.

(10) Forests were smashed and compressed by waves and layers of water laid deposits, forming coal. Coal is found all over the world on every continent even in Antarctica near the South Pole and on Spitsbergen (Svalbard) near the North Pole.

(11) Various kinds of sea life are often found on top of and between layers of coal. Corals and deep sea crinoids often alternate with coal layers. This shows that the waves were from the ocean that smashed the trees and vegetation and then deposited them over vast areas in layer upon layer. Vast areas of the earth are covered with water laid vegetation that became coal under high pressures from the materials above .
http://research.haifa.ac.il/~maritime/depa...cean/lect06.htm <http://research.haifa.ac.il/~maritime/departm/lessons/ocean/lect06.htm>

(12) Vast amounts of animals and fish were buried by water laid material before they had time to rot. (In case you don't know it, animals that died and rotted do not become fossils) Fossil fish show by the prints of their bodies in the rocks that they were fleeing for their lives when they were suddenly covered over with mud that became rock. Soft plants and worms were covered so rapidly that you can see the fossil prints in the rocks. Yes, the fossils tell us that there was a great flood that swept the earth.
NO LOCAL FLOOD COULD ACCOMPLISH THAT!

(13) Fossil whales have been uncovered in Michigan.
Fossil sharks have been found in the rocks of Ohio.

 

[wilsoncole]

Originally Posted by painted wolf
Shall we address the fossil record? :sarcastic


(14) Fossil fish beds are located near Kemmerer, Wyoming at about 7,000 feet above sea level. These creatures were entrapped by raging waves of water and materials that became rock.

(15)Animal bones have been found in great numbers in hilltop strata and cracks (fissures). Agate Springs, Nebraska is one example, where it is estimated that 9,000 animals were buried in one stratum.

(16) A very remarkable classical example of such an isolated hill is found in Burgundy, France, in the valley of the Soane. The hill is about 1,030 feet above the surrounding plain with steep flanks on all sides. A fissure near the top of the hill is crowded with animal skeletons.

(17) No skeleton is entire, the bones are fractured, are thrown together in disorderly fashion, and are unweathered and ungnawed.

(18) Fossils show that the strata were laid down rapidly by waves of water with mud that became rock.

(19) DARWIN SAW EVIDENCE OF A GLOBAL FLOOD
Charles Darwin wrote in his Journal of the Voyage of the Beagle under the date of January 9, 1834:
"It is impossible to reflect on the changed state of the American continent without the deepest astonishment. Formerly it must have swarmed with great monsters: now we find mere pygmies, compared with the antecedent, allied races. . . . What then has exterminated so many species and whole genera? The mind at first is irresistibly hurried into the belief of some great catastrophe; but thus to destroy animals, both large and small, in Southern Patagonia, in Brazil on the Cordillera of Peru, in North America up to Bering's Straits, we must shake the entire framework of the globe." (Charles Darwin 1834)

(20) The bones and skeletons of dinosaurs are found in many parts of the world, deposited in water laid strata. Some dinosaurs were swept into piles by the water and mud that became rock. In a park near Vernal, Utah you can see the dinosaur skeletons in water laid rock.

(21) Dinosaur bones are even found in water laid rock on the North Slope of Alaska, above the Arctic Circle.

(22) The climate of Alaska was warm before the flood, when there were waters above the expanse. Dinosaur fossils have been found in Antarctica. Millions of dinosaurs perished in the world-wide flood.


Dr. Stephen Austin, geologist, wrote:
(23) "The Morrison Formation of the Rocky Mountain region also is tremendously extensive, occurring from New Mexico to Canada and from Kansas to Utah. It is world-famous for its dinosaur fossils. Morrison formation dinosaur skeletons are often articulated, requiring that muscles and ligaments of the large animals were present at the time they were rapidly buried. Sedimentary formations indicating catastrophic flood processes are not confined to North America but occur on other continents as well."
(The Genesis Debate, edited by Ronald F. Youngblood (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1990), p. 224)

(24) Dinosaur fossils are found in Cretaceous rock. Also, notice that the evolutionary time table is not scientific.

(25) Before the flood, different kinds of animals lived in different locations and elevations. These different life zones caused them to be buried by the great waves of the flood in different locations and at different levels as the water level rose and as the strata were built up.13

Mountains
(26) Today there is about 48 times as much water in the oceans as there is land above sea level. Much of the world's mountains rose after the flood, as shown by their twisted and bent sedimentary strata. Strata were bent without fracturing which shows that they were still soft when uplifted.
http://www.oldpaths.com/Archive/Lockwood/Germaine/Charles/
1930/Cosmos/ch11.html


ON TIKTAALIK (A fish)
Henry Gee, chief science writer for Nature... [wrote:] "No fossil is buried with its birth certificate" ... and "the intervals of time that separate fossils are so huge that we cannot say anything definite about their possible connection through ancestry and descent." It's hard enough, with written records, to trace a human lineage back a few hundred years. When we have only a fragmentary fossil record, and we're dealing with millions of years -- what Gee calls "Deep Time" -- the job is effectively impossible... Gee concludes: "To take a line of fossils and claim that they represent a lineage is not a scientific hypothesis that can be tested, but an assertion that carries the same validity as a bedtime story -- amusing, perhaps even instructive, but not scientific." Grey Thoughts: Missing Fish Link the New Icon

 

[Autodidact]

Materialism is nature?

Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

It is evident that humans cannot endow themselves with certain abilities.

Uh, yeah. Does it have anything to do with evolution and the fossil record?

So love, hate, envy, empathy, abstract thinking, insight, wisdom, altruism, hope, peace, imagination, desire, etc, etc, etc are all unnatural?

How about those fossils?!

Which of your 5 senses can perceive all of these qualities?
Which of our animal ancestors possess these qualities?

And evolution. It's fascinating how the fossil record supports the Theory of Evolution, isn't it?

If they didn't have them, we couldn't inherit them - right?
How did humans get the ability to ENJOY life?
How does evolution explain the acquisition of those abilities?

At last, a question about evolution! What abilities? The ability to enjoy life?

Before I answer that, may I ask you, do you have any idea what the Theory of Evolution says? Because if you don't, I don't think you're going to be able to understand the answer.

 

[outhouse]

LOOK MA!

we gots us a plagiarist straight from the YEC school of unintellegent learning

you dont know or understand or have a clue about the lies you posted??? do you???

is that why you didnt post a source link breaking this sites rules???