What does the RF Muslim community make of this video?

[waitasec]

I guess you missed that part:

If you didn't get what i was saying, or it wasn't clear enough, neither was other posts stating the same:

No country today is correctly applying sharia.

thank you,

and due to the relatively recent event(s), is it any wonder why certain ignorant "infidels" are a little suspicious towards muslims?

 

[waitasec]

The fact that they don't comply to the conditions further proves my point. These countries make up punishments, and falsely apply ones, and are generally not fair in many aspects. Thats why they're not applying correct sharia, and thats also why we always say that today there is no such thing as an Islamic state.

so if these countries are not applying correct sharia, where do they get these ideas from? is it a misinterpretation of the koran? how is this possible?

i will not compare these countries to the likes of Fred Phelps and David Koresh because these are countries that are governed by a religious dogma, who claim to follow sharia...

 

[Badran]

thank you,

and due to the relatively recent event(s), is it any wonder why certain ignorant "infidels" are a little suspicious towards muslims?

You're welcome,

It's not a wonder, as ignorance and bigotry are nothing new. It not being a wonder doesn't mean its okay. Nothing justifies people being suspicious of Muslims in general, if you're speaking about Muslims in general.

Just because a few did something bad, doesn't speak for the rest of the group. Otherwise, i should be a little "suspicious" of lots of people.

so if these countries are not applying correct sharia, where do they get these ideas from? is it a misinterpretation of the koran? how is this possible?

Why wouldn't it be possible?

This is what they do, supposedly as an attempt to have an Islamic system. Their interests plays in, as any other government. Corruption plays in, also as any other government. Also, their own view on what is Islamic and what is not.

 

[Kodanshi]

These countries make up punishments, and falsely apply ones … they're not applying correct sharia.

Why do you say this? The correct punishment for fornication according to Qur’ân and Ahadith IS Rajm and/or Lashing.

 

[Alceste]

[youtube]pQzuFrMRA3M[/youtube]
YouTube - Apostasy in Islam:Richard Dawkins extracts some truth from a Muslim

here is a video, at the end you will see what even a muslim teacher has to say about Apostasy in islam, and what they teach children happens when they leave the religion.

do you see christian fundamentalists blowing up buildings? terrorising the world? How do these fundamentalists get this from a book that is supposedly good?

is killing people who draw pictures of mohammad moral? this has occured, and i don't see christians killing people who oppose christianity, nearly exclusively it is muslims. HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THIS?

Don't be retarded. Dr. George Tiller. Look it up.

 

[Alceste]

so are you denying that islam is the most physically destructive religion on the world at this moment?

The Christianity of Bush and Blair and the Judaism of Netanyahu put Islam to shame, if civilian body count alone is how we are to judge.

 

[Badran]

Why do you say this? The correct punishment for fornication according to Qur’ân and Ahadith IS Rajm and/or Lashing.

The Quran mentions Rajm?

I assume you mean that Quran mentions lashing, and Hadiths mention rajm.

In that case, as i guess you haven't seen any of my posts concerning rajm, i don't believe in rajm. I believe the punishment is whats mentioned in the Quran, not rajm. How about the Hadiths that mentions rajm? thats another matter that i also discussed in other threads, i don't think i should get into that here.

As for other things i meant by false appliance, is that in some or most cases, they do not meet the conditions. The 4 witnesses thing.

 

[waitasec]

You're welcome,

It's not a wonder, as ignorance and bigotry are nothing new. It not being a wonder doesn't mean its okay. Nothing justifies people being suspicious of Muslims in general, if you're speaking about Muslims in general.

Just because a few did something bad, doesn't speak for the rest of the group. Otherwise, i should be a little "suspicious" of lots of people.



Why wouldn't it be possible?

This is what they do, supposedly as an attempt to have an Islamic system. Their interests plays in, as any other government. Corruption plays in, also as any other government. Also, their own view on what is Islamic and what is not.

if there are no countries that are following the correct sharia law, who are we to trust?
we are talking about countries not individuals...

 

[Badran]

if there are no countries that are following the correct sharia law, who are we to trust?
we are talking about countries not individuals...

I'm not following.

Only few of the muslim countries are actually attempting to implement sharia. Muslims are not exclusively living in Muslim countries, they are all over.

Why should all of those be judged according to what certain (very few) governments do?

Also, following the same logic, i should distrust Americans because of what Bush did, and what their government do in general.

 

[waitasec]

I'm not following.

Only few of the muslim countries are actually attempting to implement sharia. Muslims are not exclusively living in Muslim countries, they are all over.

Why should all of those be judged according to what certain (very few) governments do?

Also, following the same logic, i should distrust Americans because of what Bush did, and what their government do in general.

i agree, american's are imperialistic if you look at history
iran/contra affair
nicaragua
cuba
the list is very long indeed.

so which are the few muslim countries that are actually attempting to implement correct sharia?
saudi arabia
iran
iraq
afghanistan...
even so, human rights have been an on going issue in these countries...
and if sharia were correctly implemented would human rights organizations continue to raise concern in these regions?

 

[Badran]

i agree, american's are imperialistic if you look at history
iran/contra affair
nicaragua
cuba
the list is very long indeed.

But yet, i will not be suspicious of Americans in general, as i know not all Americans support whatever their government does. Many of them are completely against these actions of their government. Which is why generalizing is never a good idea, because you'll always mistreat or be unjust to someone who doesn't deserve it.

so which are the few muslim countries that are actually attempting to implement correct sharia?

The ones i mentioned to you earlier. But like i said, they are not successful in that attempt. In some aspects intentionally, and in others unintentionally.

even so, human rights have been an on going issue in these countries...
and if sharia were correctly implemented would human rights organizations continue to raise concern in these regions?

Sharia as it is today, have some work to be done in order to be effective as a system to operate a country. If achieved as i have it in mind, i think at best it would be a country with some negative aspects( as any other country, as a perfect society is impossible to achieve), but it wouldn't be a bad place or a place to be considered raising concerns in anyway. It would achieve greatly actually in regards to human rights.

 

[waitasec]

But yet, i will not be suspicious of Americans in general, as i know not all Americans support whatever their government does. Many of them are completely against these actions of their government. Which is why generalizing is never a good idea, because you'll always mistreat or be unjust to someone who doesn't deserve it.

very well said. i am guilty of over generalizing only because my exposure to islam is VERY limited and mostly from what i hear is not in a positive light mainly due to the human rights issue... the western world couldn't be further apart from the eastern world...

The ones i mentioned to you earlier. But like i said, they are not successful in that attempt. In some aspects intentionally, and in others unintentionally.

Sharia as it is today, have some work to be done in order to be effective as a system to operate a country. If achieved as i have it in mind, i think at best it would be a country with some negative aspects( as any other country, as a perfect society is impossible to achieve), but it wouldn't be a bad place or a place to be considered raising concerns in anyway. It would achieve greatly actually in regards to human rights.

it looks like there is an up hill battle just by reading some of these threads.
i think a political religion is a very very dangerous mix...

 

[Badran]

very well said. i am guilty of over generalizing only because my exposure to islam is VERY limited and mostly from what i hear is not in a positive light mainly due to the human rights issue... the western world couldn't be further apart from the eastern world...

Yeah, that usually is the problem. The fact that many people from the western world are unfamiliar with Islam and Muslims, makes them an easier pray to the immense propaganda they are exposed to.

it looks like there is an up hill battle just by reading some of these threads.
i think a political religion is a very very dangerous mix...

The idea is like this, each country in the world is or should be trying to make a system that reflects the values that this society holds, and protect minorities living in that society and so on.

For a country that contains a majority of Muslims, their values are driven from Islam, so naturally, their system should be so as well. That however, doesn't mean that non-Muslims in the community should be 2nd class citizens, or that they should be exposed to any oppression from the religion.

The fact that governments and leaders in general are most of the times corrupt and/or incompetent is the reason for why minorities are usually oppressed.

 

[waitasec]

Yeah, that usually is the problem. The fact that many people from the western world are unfamiliar with Islam and Muslims, makes them an easier pray to the immense propaganda they are exposed to.



The idea is like this, each country in the world is or should be trying to make a system that reflects the values that this society holds, and protect minorities living in that society and so on.

For a country that contains a majority of Muslims, their values are driven from Islam, so naturally, their system should be so as well. That however, doesn't mean that non-Muslims in the community should be 2nd class citizens, or that they should be exposed to any oppression from the religion.

The fact that governments and leaders in general are most of the times corrupt and/or incompetent is the reason for why minorities are usually oppressed.

in the u.s. constitution there is freedom of religion
the founding fathers of this country thought in order to spread equality among the people is to not to have 1 religion to rule over others. separation of church and state... "one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all"
my question to you is, do you think there are more muslims that are fundamentally conservative then there are moderates and or liberal?

 

[Kodanshi]

The Quran mentions Rajm?

I assume you mean that Quran mentions lashing, and Hadiths mention rajm.

In that case, as i guess you haven't seen any of my posts concerning rajm, i don't believe in rajm. I believe the punishment is whats mentioned in the Quran, not rajm. How about the Hadiths that mentions rajm? thats another matter that i also discussed in other threads, i don't think i should get into that here.

As for other things i meant by false appliance, is that in some or most cases, they do not meet the conditions. The 4 witnesses thing.

Another Qur’an Aloner?

 

[Badran]

in the u.s. constitution there is freedom of religion
the founding fathers of this country thought in order to spread equality among the people is to not to have 1 religion to rule over others. separation of church and state... "one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all"
my question to you is, do you think there are more muslims that are fundamentally conservative then there are moderates and or liberal?

Could you explain to me and give examples about what you would consider a fundamental and conservative person? As words like literalist, fundamentalist etc.. seem to me to be possible to apply in more than one sense. So, i'd like to make sure to understand what you mean by them.

 

[Badran]

Another Qur’an Aloner?

I follow Hadith, i'm not a Quran only follower.

But i don't accept any Hadith considered to be authentic, as some of them for me are contradictory to the Quran, in a very obvious manner, and they even contradict with common sense.

 

[waitasec]

Could you explain to me and give examples about what you would consider a fundamental and conservative person? As words like literalist, fundamentalist etc.. seem to me to be possible to apply in more than one sense. So, i'd like to make sure to understand what you mean by them.

i guess i mean a person who takes scripture literally without questioning it.
someone who takes it in at face value and believes it is to be applied now as it was when it was written...

 

[Badran]

i guess i mean a person who takes scripture literally without questioning it.
someone who takes it in at face value and believes it is to be applied now as it was when it was written...

People who don't question, i would say there are more Muslims that meet that, sadly. And by questioning, i mean to question what the verse means, more people seem to take whatever they're told, and thats very unfortunate.

Taking the words at face value however, not so much, as this is not how the Quran is interpreted, or at least usually interpreted.

 

[Kodanshi]

I follow Hadith, i'm not a Quran only follower.

But i don't accept any Hadith considered to be authentic, as some of them for me are contradictory to the Quran, in a very obvious manner, and they even contradict with common sense.

So you pick and choose, basically. That’s fine. I was like that. But there are problems. Some ahadith, for example those describing Muhammad fingering his wife during that time of the month, may seem distasteful to a lot of people. Back when I believe I believed in it because I thought it served the purpose of showing that a woman on her period is NOT unclean.