What does your Abrahamic religion give you?

[Jayhawker Soule]

Abrahamic religions are so eccentric that I have been asked in the past not to call Judaism by that name, which I am inclined to agree with.

You honestly think that (some) Jews object to the category "Abrahamic Religions" because "Abrahamic religions" are eccentric?

 

[icehorse]

You honestly think that (some) Jews object to the category "Abrahamic Religions" because "Abrahamic religions" are eccentric?

I think you're throwing spanners in the works.

 

[icehorse]

Yes, that kinda explains it. I do see religion as some kinda mentor.

I don't disagree that my community (that happens to be a religion influenced community, by the way) gave me a sense of knowing what's right and wrong. But simply knowing what's right and wrong does not make us do what's right and avoid what's wrong. We are humans with the power of choice, and the weakness of temptation. What ultimately controls us to do or do not do is our resolve. People do wrong things knowing it is wrong and still do it anyways because they wanted it, because they chose to, and because they followed the temptation. Having something strong like religion affect this resolve will only make it even stronger to control in addition to what community teaches.

Non believers noticed how religion makes some believers become radical and insistent for what they, the non believers, criticize believers for, and blame it on religion. The same thing also applies to the good things believers would insist on like never miss giving charity to the poor, choose not to rape defenseless victims or robe unguarded merchandize, which could be a part of the same religion. I believe non believers should start looking at those good things as well instead of just noticing what they don't like believers do. Otherwise it would be a double standard.

I of course do not imply that non believers do not have discipline and/or similar good things just because the don't follow a religion. All I'm saying is that that's the case for me and I see religion as a part that plays a strong roll in it.

Interesting...

I like to compare the UN Declaration on Human Rights to the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights. The Cairo declaration makes claims that I find immoral. For example, Cairo does not allow for apostasy.

So where does an idea like "apostasy is a crime" fit into your religion / community perspective?

 

[Smart_Guy]

Interesting...

I like to compare the UN Declaration on Human Rights to the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights. The Cairo declaration makes claims that I find immoral. For example, Cairo does not allow for apostasy.

So where does an idea like "apostasy is a crime" fit into your religion / community perspective?

I can't tell for sure where it fits in my community since I've never lived such a case or had it happen around me. To me, as for the religious part, I don't consider apostasy a crime that one has to be punished for in this life. It is going against God's teachings, but I see it is not a crime for us to judge, according to my beliefs. I'd like to talk more about this, but I fear I'd cross a line (as some others see) and get myself in trouble. I think I said too much as it is. Please understand.

 

[idea]

What does your Abrahamic religion give you?

Meaning and purpose in life, spiritual support and guidance. Salvation in this life, and in the life to come. It gives me eternal life.

 

[icehorse]

I can't tell for sure where it fits in my community since I've never lived such a case or had it happen around me. To me, as for the religious part, I don't consider apostasy a crime that one has to be punished for in this life. It is going against God's teachings, but I see it is not a crime for us to judge, according to my beliefs. I'd like to talk more about this, but I fear I'd cross a line (as some others see) and get myself in trouble. I think I said too much as it is. Please understand.

As always, I appreciate the comments you can make!

 

[icehorse]

What does your Abrahamic religion give you?

Meaning and purpose in life, spiritual support and guidance. Salvation in this life, and in the life to come. It gives me eternal life.

My point is not to be argumentative, but to dig into these answers a little more deeply. My guess is that you're either misattributing the source of these things to religion, or that you're using "religion" as more of a blanket term than most people would.

For example, I would guess that your actual morals don't match up very well to your scripture, and I wonder how you come to square those?

 

[idea]

My point is not to be argumentative, but to dig into these answers a little more deeply. My guess is that you're either misattributing the source of these things to religion, or that you're using "religion" as more of a blanket term than most people would.

For example, I would guess that your actual morals don't match up very well to your scripture, and I wonder how you come to square those?

What do you mean by "religion"? I worship my God, not my church, but my church does help bring me closer to God. Salvation comes through sincere repentance and the atonement of course. There are many good people at church who have also gone through the repentance process, we all support one another and help one another progress.

 

[icehorse]

What do you mean by "religion"? I worship my God, not my church, but my church does help bring me closer to God. Salvation comes through sincere repentance and the atonement of course. There are many good people at church who have also gone through the repentance process, we all support one another and help one another progress.

Again, not to be argumentative, but your answers lead me to more questions... It sounds as though you're saying that what you're calling your "religion" is a combination of some ideas from scripture, a lot of your own morality, and the support of a community. Is that a fair summary?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I think you're throwing spanners in the works.

You also think that my "personal take on religion is very watered down." Your condescension is noted.

 

[icehorse]

You also think that my "personal take on religion is very watered down." Your condescension is noted.

Now you're taking phrases out of context, was that deliberate?

 

[EshetChayil]

FWIW, I think icehorse's stance is dualistic but not condescending or pedantic. A genuine sense of curiosity, even if skeptical or suspicious, is fair - but I see a curiosity nonetheless as to the motives behind living a traditionally religious life, when many/most in the modern world gain morality and belonging from other aspects of life, rendering religion, at least to them, irrelevant.

For me, religion differs from spirituality in one essential way. It demands action, whereas spirituality can remain ideological and philosophical. Within the structure of Judaism I am asked not just to believe lofty ideals (in fact, in some streams of Judaism I am not asked to believe in them at all), but to be them, to act them out, to mobilize spiritual principles which, without action, would be entirely unhelpful.

For me, morality doesn't come from the scriptural texts I subscribe to, but as a consequence of enacting the commandments therein. The Torah is not meant to be taken literally. It is metaphor; it is archetype. Nevertheless, wisdom can be gained by enacting its rituals and precepts. Morality happens as a result of that. So, I guess to answer the original question, I do get morality from my religion, but sort of indirectly. Directly, I get belonging, wisdom, deep abiding joy... I see my religion as a road map for living as much in relationship with the rest of the interconnected universe as a human possibly can.

 

[icehorse]

FWIW, I think icehorse's stance is dualistic but not condescending or pedantic. A genuine sense of curiosity, even if skeptical or suspicious, is fair - but I see a curiosity nonetheless as to the motives behind living a traditionally religious life, when many/most in the modern world gain morality and belonging from other aspects of life, rendering religion, at least to them, irrelevant.

For me, religion differs from spirituality in one essential way. It demands action, whereas spirituality can remain ideological and philosophical. Within the structure of Judaism I am asked not just to believe lofty ideals (in fact, in some streams of Judaism I am not asked to believe in them at all), but to be them, to act them out, to mobilize spiritual principles which, without action, would be entirely unhelpful.

For me, morality doesn't come from the scriptural texts I subscribe to, but as a consequence of enacting the commandments therein. The Torah is not meant to be taken literally. It is metaphor; it is archetype. Nevertheless, wisdom can be gained by enacting its rituals and precepts. Morality happens as a result of that. So, I guess to answer the original question, I do get morality from my religion, but sort of indirectly. Directly, I get belonging, wisdom, deep abiding joy... I see my religion as a road map for living as much in relationship with the rest of the interconnected universe as a human possibly can.

Hey EshetChayil, (Got an abbr. for that?)

Thanks for your post. Can you give me an example of how enacting rituals and/or precepts leads you to morality?

 

[LuisDantas]

You honestly think that (some) Jews object to the category "Abrahamic Religions" because "Abrahamic religions" are eccentric?

The answer to your question is actually yes, I do.

But that is not what I said previously.

What I did say, or at least what I meant, is that I do find Christianity, Islam and the Bahai Faith (and others - perhaps Rastafarianism?) eccentric enough that it is only natural for Judaism and the Jewish People to reject the claims of connection and legitimate succession that those religions saddle them with.

That is one-sided appropriation that IMO serves little if any constructive purpose. And sure, I do find it to be one of several eccentricities of those faiths. Some members of the Jewish People will probably agree with me about at least some of those other eccentricities, but I would guess that by far most won't much mind them.

Still, whatever else one may think of Judaism, it is only fair to point out that it does not encourage that appropriation and is very consistently happy to be considered a religion of its own. And it is just as fair to point out that for the most part neither Christianity, nor Islam nor Bahais give much attention to that desire.

 

[EshetChayil]

Hey EshetChayil, (Got an abbr. for that?)

Maybe just Eshet (woman)? I won't knock you for calling me, "hey woman."

Can you give me an example of how enacting rituals and/or precepts leads you to morality?

I want to preface by saying that I view morality in a slightly different way than perhaps many people do. I don't see it as a question of right and wrong, black and white; I see it more as a spectrum, at one end of which are healthy, loving, life-giving behaviors, and at the other end are behaviors which are unhealthy, damaging, and hurtful.

So, when I cover my hair, as I'm asked to do as a married woman, I'm reminded that I am responsible to someone, that there are parts of me that are sacred to that someone, that I am a Jew, and that I've chosen a life of observance that allows me to be close to G!d. When I walk down the street and see a Muslim woman donning a hijab, I'm immediately reminded that we are alike. She is likely wearing a hijab for the same or similar reasons as I am: to live a sanctified existence. This literally forces me to act with compassion, with empathy, with respect for the other, because I now acknowledge that though we look different, we are the same. And I'd say that treating others with respect is a good, healthy, loving thing to do; a moralistic value.

To give another example, being kosher confronts me with issues of animal rights. I am not allowed to eat something that has been inhumanely slaughtered. I am also not allowed to cook a kid in its mother's milk, which... is really just a nice thing to do. Maybe unnecessary as cows don't have feelings, but still nice. Observing kashrut doesn't mean I'll automatically behave morally, but if I'm mindful while doing it, I am forced to ask myself, "how was this food produced? Now knowing how it was produced, is it ethical to eat it?" If it isn't, I don't continue, I don't support the industry.

 

[Levite]

Your description emphasizes flexibility, which is a rare trait in religions. How much dogma would you say remains?

Judaism is not heavily dogmatic (though many ultra-Orthodox communities seem to have crystallized a lot of opinions and customs and interpretations into de facto dogma, but that's a phenomenon of limited scope), but it never was. There are few things, traditionally, that a Jew must believe, and must only believe in a certain way. Most things are subject to interpretation, and historically, we have been remarkably tolerant of multiple interpretations.

Abrahamic religions are so eccentric that I have been asked in the past not to call Judaism by that name, which I am inclined to agree with.

I would imagine it more likely that Jews prefer not to be lumped in as an "Abrahamic religion" for much the same reason we disdain phrases like "Judeo-Christian:" it implies that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all basically the same thing, or parts of the same thing, and dismisses or minimizes greatly the real differences that make them separate phenomena, even if related in certain concepts that Christianity "borrowed" from Judaism, and then that Islam "borrowed" from both Judaism and Christianity.

The core oddity as I see it is that while even Judaism, and to an even greater measure Christianity and Islam often make a point of claiming that they need their scriptures and often also their dogmas to even exist, let alone to have their worth, I have concluded that this is not even remotely true.
Instead, Judaism seems to me to be much like Shinto in its true worth and strength. It is both cause and consequence of a mighty, fertile sense of community and commitment that is as close to a precious gift and a source of miracles as I expect to ever find.

Not so much, I think. Judaism is somewhat comparable to Shinto in that it is the Way of the Jews in much the same way that traditionally Shinto was the Way of Japan, an inextricable set of ideas bound into the culture.

But the culture and the community are generated out of the tradition, and the tradition is generated out of Torah. Without Torah, without the tradition, the culture and the community would vanish. And, in fact, we see that amongst secular Jews who have no education in Jewish text and tradition, and who do not affiliate with synagogues or Jewish schools, they tend to have much attenuated ties to the Jewish community, and no recognizable cultural identity as Jews-- like I said, mostly jokes, certain foods, and miscellaneous Jewish kitsch.

 

[LuisDantas]

I would imagine it more likely that Jews prefer not to be lumped in as an "Abrahamic religion" for much the same reason we disdain phrases like "Judeo-Christian:" it implies that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all basically the same thing, or parts of the same thing, and dismisses or minimizes greatly the real differences that make them separate phenomena, even if related in certain concepts that Christianity "borrowed" from Judaism, and then that Islam "borrowed" from both Judaism and Christianity.

That is what I thought. Interesting that you see some significant contrast with what I did say. No, I do not know what that contrast would be.

Not so much, I think. Judaism is somewhat comparable to Shinto in that it is the Way of the Jews in much the same way that traditionally Shinto was the Way of Japan, an inextricable set of ideas bound into the culture.

A bit more than that, I suspect. There seems to be a tradition of mutual commitment and (for the most part) acceptance that may well go largely undervalued, at least by outsiders.

But the culture and the community are generated out of the tradition, and the tradition is generated out of Torah. Without Torah, without the tradition, the culture and the community would vanish. And, in fact, we see that amongst secular Jews who have no education in Jewish text and tradition, and who do not affiliate with synagogues or Jewish schools, they tend to have much attenuated ties to the Jewish community, and no recognizable cultural identity as Jews-- like I said, mostly jokes, certain foods, and miscellaneous Jewish kitsch.

You are obviously in a far better position than me to have a position on this matter, so I will just say that there is indeed considerable evidence that religious traditions (including specific scriptures such as the Torah) are very useful in attaining a sense of community and mutual commitment.

From a more pedestrian perspective, it should be self-evident that one can hardly dedicate oneself to a tradition and culture that one does not quite know and understand.

In short, I have little clue about how meaningful a disagreement you and me truly have on this matter. Perhaps no more than you thinking of the Torah as particularly necessary while I do not.

 

[ether-ore]

Levite and ether-ore,

Thanks for the thoughtful replies. Levite, I can understand how you'd come to that conclusion, but it doesn't capture where I'm coming from...

You both mention morals, so I'd like to know, if not from your scripture, how does your religion convey morals to you? For example, I can completely understand being brought up in a community that has a strong moral sense, and having that sensibility pass along to new generations. But I wouldn't attribute that to religion, I'd attribute it to community. So perhaps what's confusing to me is when folks give religion credit when the credit is due to community?

From my perspective, I don't attribute morality to community. My religion teaches me that God's moral laws are eternal... that they have always existed; before this world was even created and have existed for worlds created by God previous to this one. It is the law and its teachings, not the community. I think you attribute it to community because, not believing in God gives you no other alternative. Any specific community involving this earthly existence has no bearing on morality because that would make it subjective and I believe in an objective morality.

 

[Brickjectivity]

In the long run you support the position of every snake handler when you call someone's practice 'Watered-down'. I used to use that phrase, but it was a mistake. Its merely derogatory, a way to make people feel they aren't sincere if they don't agree about something. You aren't as extreme as I am or as sincere, so I call you watered-down.

 

[icehorse]

From my perspective, I don't attribute morality to community. My religion teaches me that God's moral laws are eternal... that they have always existed; before this world was even created and have existed for worlds created by God previous to this one. It is the law and its teachings, not the community. I think you attribute it to community because, not believing in God gives you no other alternative. Any specific community involving this earthly existence has no bearing on morality because that would make it subjective and I believe in an objective morality.

So how did you come to know god's moral laws? It seems to me that if you say "scripture" then you have to admit that you cherry-pick your scripture based on moral understanding that came before your knowledge of scripture, correct? If not community or scripture, then where?