What does your Abrahamic religion give you?

[icehorse]

In the long run you support the position of every snake handler when you call someone's practice 'Watered-down'. I used to use that phrase, but it was a mistake. Its merely derogatory, a way to make people feel they aren't sincere if they don't agree about something. You aren't as extreme as I am or as sincere, so I call you watered-down.

The OP was made with a specific context.

 

[ether-ore]

So how did you come to know god's moral laws? It seems to me that if you say "scripture" then you have to admit that you cherry-pick your scripture based on moral understanding that came before your knowledge of scripture, correct? If not community or scripture, then where?

No, not correct. If left to my own understanding, I could not have come up with an objective set of moral laws. First of all, if I had come up with them, they would necessarily be subjective to my thinking. In contemplating scripture, one cannot cherry pick. All scripture informs all other scripture, so the whole of it must be taken together. Since so many prophets over the millennia have indicated the same moral standards, that gives credibility concerning the veracity of the objective moral code.

 

[icehorse]

No, not correct. If left to my own understanding, I could not have come up with an objective set of moral laws. First of all, if I had come up with them, they would necessarily be subjective to my thinking. In contemplating scripture, one cannot cherry pick. All scripture informs all other scripture, so the whole of it must be taken together. Since so many prophets over the millennia have indicated the same moral standards, that gives credibility concerning the veracity of the objective moral code.

This is an interesting conversation - thanks. Can you tell me which sets of scripture you are informed by?

The reason I ask is because - for example - all the Abrahamic scripture supports slavery, so if what you're saying is true, then you'd have to agree that you find slavery moral acceptable.

 

[ChristineES]

I am sorry I've taken so long to get back to you on your last question: Although the faith of my God is easy, at the same time, it's work. We're supposed to love our enemies,as Jesus commanded, that's hard to do! Thich Nhat Hanh, the author of Living Buddha, Living Christ, he is a Buddhist, but he was able to put the meaning of forgiving our enemies in a rather doable way: Try and understand why a person does what he or she does. We have a teaching from Jesus: Forgive our brothers (or sisters) 7 times 70 times: Does this mean we're supposed to keep count? Actually, no, I believe it means that we have to remember that we are forgiven, too. If I remember the time I accidentally knocked over my roommates glass and broke it and how nice she was about it, I will be much more willing to forgive someone else who knocks over my things and breaks them. It would be too easy to scream at the person and call them a klutz or something (not that I'd do that anyway).
I want to be the best person I can be, and I have found that my faith helps me to do just that.

 

[ether-ore]

This is an interesting conversation - thanks. Can you tell me which sets of scripture you are informed by?

The reason I ask is because - for example - all the Abrahamic scripture supports slavery, so if what you're saying is true, then you'd have to agree that you find slavery moral acceptable.

I am LDS (Mormon), so I accept the Bible (KJV), The Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price as scripture. I disagree with your assessment that Abrahamic scripture endorses slavery. What it seeks to avoid is the spilling of blood over the issue. I believe God would rather there be slavery than there be war and any of His children be killed over it. My opinion is that God does not endorse slavery, He merely allows it as a consequence of the agency of societies He has granted and to avert war as well as poverty for some. As a side note, one of the reasons the early Mormons were expelled from Missouri was because they were an anti-slavery voting block. Remember from history that the Missouri Compromise made it a slave state, so the slave owners didn't like the Mormons for that among other reasons.

 

[icehorse]

I am LDS (Mormon), so I accept the Bible (KJV), The Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price as scripture. I disagree with your assessment that Abrahamic scripture endorses slavery. What it seeks to avoid is the spilling of blood over the issue. I believe God would rather there be slavery than there be war and any of His children be killed over it. My opinion is that God does not endorse slavery, He merely allows it as a consequence of the agency of societies He has granted and to avert war as well as poverty for some. As a side note, one of the reasons the early Mormons were expelled from Missouri was because they were an anti-slavery voting block. Remember from history that the Missouri Compromise made it a slave state, so the slave owners didn't like the Mormons for that among other reasons.

Interesting - I wasn't thinking in terms of scripture added by the LDS! I have almost no knowledge of that LDS-specific scripture. But I would say that even the NT is pretty clear in its support of slavery. So I wonder if your assessment is based on a lot of personal or LDS interpretation?

 

[ether-ore]

Interesting - I wasn't thinking in terms of scripture added by the LDS! I have almost no knowledge of that LDS-specific scripture. But I would say that even the NT is pretty clear in its support of slavery. So I wonder if your assessment is based on a lot of personal or LDS interpretation?

I think it is a given on a couple of levels that slavery is not something desired by God for any of His children. LDS believe that the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution were inspired of God. We believe that all men are created equal and that each soul has a divine destiny. We believe that it is contrary to the will of God that any of His children should be held in involuntary servitude. We acknowledge that it has occurred in history and that it is still occurring in some parts of the world. Another thing is that the things in scripture dealing with the issue are to the effect that if one of God's children is in debt to another of His children for whatever reason and must therefore serve in order to discharge the debt, then there are guidelines established for the protection of the servant during the tenure of his servitude. In fact, these servants are to have their debts forgiven on Jubilee and be set free of the debt. I know of no condition of servitude sanctioned by God where some form of indebtedness is not involved. Another thing; there are instances in scripture where the poor indebted themselves of their own will in order to have the care of someone who was able to provide them with food, shelter and clothing. For example: The famine in Egypt at the time of Joseph where when other avenues of payment ran out, the people sold their servitude to Pharaoh in order to buy food.

 

[icehorse]

In other words, sometimes slavery is ok?

 

[Desert Snake]

The OP was made with a specific context.

Sort of. You've turned it into a ''Scripture', thing right?

 

[icehorse]

Sort of. You've turned it into a ''Scripture', thing right?

No, "belief in scripture" was right there in the OP.

 

[Desert Snake]

No, "belief in scripture" was right there in the OP.

Belief in Scripture, in what manner? Many xians don't ''believe'' in the literal Scripture. That is what I'm getting at. The literal Scripture does not support many Xian common ideas, actually. What happens is, people will just come up with a ''explanation'' as to why a word doesn't mean what it should mean in the context, etc.

 

[icehorse]

Belief in Scripture, in what manner? Many xians don't ''believe'' in the literal Scripture. That is what I'm getting at. The literal Scripture does not support many Xian common ideas, actually. What happens is, people will just come up with a ''explanation'' as to why a word doesn't mean what it should mean in the context, etc.

I agree that that's a common pattern. My general sense is that many religious people misattribute things like morals to their religion, when in fact, as you seem to be saying, they have morals first and then try to get the scripture to match up.

 

[ether-ore]

In other words, sometimes slavery is ok?

Slavery simply means involuntary servitude. That says nothing about the reasons behind it being involuntary. For you to have asked that question, means that you completely ignored what I said. In our present culture, we allow for the declaration of bankruptcy or some other means for escaping the responsibility of debt. Not so in ancient times. If you incurred a debt and could not pay it, the law could force you into servitude in order to work off the debt just as the law could put you in jail and deprive you of your freedom for any other crime. To force the one to whom the debt is owed to forgive the debt without recourse is the same as stealing from him, making him a slave to the debtor. That is not justice. So yes, sometimes slavery is ok, depending on the culture and conditions that warrant it.

 

[icehorse]

For the sake of discussion, let's say - for the moment - that working off a debt is a moral flavor of slavery. Are you saying that this is the only flavor of slavery discussed in your scripture?

Now, back to the idea that - at some point in time - slavery to work off a debt was considered moral. Did this idea come from god? Did god change his mind over the last several thousand years?

 

[Desert Snake]

I agree that that's a common pattern. My general sense is that many religious people misattribute things like morals to their religion, when in fact, as you seem to be saying, they have morals first and then try to get the scripture to match up.

Could be some of that, but it's also many religious subjects in the Scriptures.

 

[ether-ore]

For the sake of discussion, let's say - for the moment - that working off a debt is a moral flavor of slavery. Are you saying that this is the only flavor of slavery discussed in your scripture?

Now, back to the idea that - at some point in time - slavery to work off a debt was considered moral. Did this idea come from god? Did god change his mind over the last several thousand years?

No, it isn't the only form mentioned in scripture, but I consider it to be the only form allowed by God's law who expects His children to pay their debts. No, I don't think God changed His mind. Society has changed and come to consider it immoral to require people pay their debts and God does not intervene.

 

[icehorse]

No, it isn't the only form mentioned in scripture, but I consider it to be the only form allowed by God's law who expects His children to pay their debts. No, I don't think God changed His mind. Society has changed and come to consider it immoral to require people pay their debts and God does not intervene.

Again, I appreciate the conversation. What I'm noticing is that you are bringing in moral sensibilities from... where? It seems to me these sensibilities of yours are coming from outside religion? If not, then I'd be interested in hearing from where in your religion did you acquire these moral ideas?

 

[icehorse]

Could be some of that, but it's also many religious subjects in the Scriptures.

If I understand you, you're saying that you can scan scripture and find moral teachings? I'd agree. My (recurring) point is that in order to do such scanning, the scanner is coming in with a moral compass.

 

[Akivah]

For the sake of discussion, let's say - for the moment - that working off a debt is a moral flavor of slavery. Are you saying that this is the only flavor of slavery discussed in your scripture?

Now, back to the idea that - at some point in time - slavery to work off a debt was considered moral. Did this idea come from god? Did god change his mind over the last several thousand years?

Slavery in the Jewish bible

In the Torah, the word Eved (commonly translated as slave) simply connotes work or worker, and it is conceptually more akin to a "New England Steward" rather than a "Southern Slave". According to the laws of the Torah, there are two possible ways for a Jew to be sold as an Eved.

1) If the person stole and does not have the means to reimburse the victim. In this case the thief is sold by the courts and the money goes to pay for the stolen items.

In the modern world, a person convicted of a crime is put into prison. There they languish in idleness and are separated from their families, sometimes for years. Contrasting this to Torah, a thief must pay back double the amount they stole. If they can’t pay, then they are sold into slavery and the proceeds go to reimburse their victim. Any deficiency in the amount owed must be worked off by the criminal (slave).

There are very specific laws for how the slave is treated. The slave must be fed the same foods and wines that the master enjoys and our sages tell us that if there is only one pillow in the house the master must let the slave sleep on it. Additionally, the master is also responsible to take in the spouse and children of the slave and feed them as long as the slave is working off their restitution. The master is not allowed to overwork the slave.

2) A person is also allowed to sell themselves into slavery if they are poverty-stricken and desperate. Back in ancient times, there weren’t any government funded welfare programs. This could be a viable option for a person in desperate straits.

Edited and adapted from an article by Rabbi Naftali Silberberg

 

[ether-ore]

Again, I appreciate the conversation. What I'm noticing is that you are bringing in moral sensibilities from... where? It seems to me these sensibilities of yours are coming from outside religion? If not, then I'd be interested in hearing from where in your religion did you acquire these moral ideas?

It's not complicated and I've alluded to it already. LDS believe that because all on this earth are God's children with equal standing before God, we consider it manifestly unjust to force someone into involuntary servitude without there being some justification for it such as debt. To force someone into slavery for one's own gain is to steal from that individual their time and labor. Without the justification of a debt to be paid, such theft is against God's law of "Thou shalt not steal" to say nothing of covetousness.