What evidence for God

[mohammed_beiruti]

Yes, everything came to be by 'chance', even if there was an entity dictating this even, it still happened by chance.

If you can provide me with anything that is not by chance, I would be amazed.


If your definition of chance is that it happened without an entity dictating it, then yes it could have happened by chance.

does the baby of a mamal run to his mother breast to suck her milk, by chance?

 

[Onkara]

Your existence itself is only evidence that you exist, it makes no statements of its origin.

If your only definition of god is that is it 'everything', then I don't think anybody asked to to provide evidence for that. But attaching ANY other characteristics to this god would need evidence. For example that this god that is everything is consciously creating human beings. That aspect would need evidence and that is exactly what the OP is asking for. Not evidence for 'everything'.

It has no origin in itself, at least not one our minds will find. Why? Because the mind did not precede existence. The mind itself was created (or depends on the source, should you reject creationism).

Regarding your second paragraph, that is how you understand the question because that is how you understand nature and God. There is no need to find the conscious creator, because creation and creator are one. If there is no division then the evidence is right under your nose... in fact it IS your nose! We have become so used to being us that we think we are less than we are. We miss the miracle of life ourselves.

It is simple,what evidence is there for God. Look again:

Simple, what evidence is there of there being a god, a higher being, or any of the like?

 

[Orbital]

does the baby of a mamal run to his mother breast to suck her milk, by chance?

Yes.

that is how you understand the question because that is how you understand nature and God.

I hold absolutely no understand of 'God', I was working of your definition of this being. You defined it as being everything.
So if you set God=everything(universe), then I think most people will agree with you there, the universe exists.

We are not in disagreement if that is your only characteristic that you apply to god.

 

[Onkara]

I hold absolutely no understand of 'God', I was working of your definition of this being. You defined it as being everything.
So if you set God=everything(universe), then I think most people will agree with you there, the universe exists.

We are not in disagreement if that is your only characteristic that you apply to god.

I add a few more characteristics, but they are really to help us to understand mentally. Ultimately it just comes down to existence, which is known through consciousness. Existence and consciousness are not separable for us; they are the same thing. Without consciousness, material existence ceases to exist.

The problem I have had describing "God" as consciousness is the conception that consciousness depends on the physical for it to exist. It is actually the other way around. This decision that our body makes consciousness is where the problem begins because it makes us limited. It is healthier to see that matter arises and is known, through consciousness. Thus consciousness gives rise to material existence. We are that consciousness, immortal and timeless, like "god".

 

[Orbital]

You need to give me your definition of consciousness.

(And this is the point I made earlier, for each characteristic you add to this 'God' you need to provide evidence. We have established that the universe exists, but I don't think anyone was disagreeing with that to begin with.)

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

Yes.

I think that a God had put an instinct in this animal to behave in such way.

this new born baby has no experience nor does he has a freewill!

 

[Orbital]

@mohammed

Yes, It is genetically 'coded' (please don't read too much into that word) to survive and go for her mother's milk. But by a genetic mutation the mammal you described could simply lose its lust to go for its mothers milk and therefore die. The sensors and parts of its brain could be shattered/broken in such a way that it would not know how to feed itself, this is what our society would name a 'severely handicapped being'.

 

[chinu]

Let me rephrase what I said:

U are a nice person, I respect you a lot.

If you actually apply this absolutely absurd standard of evidence to other aspects to life you would come up with the silliest conclusions ever and they would not reflect reality.

Do you know what happened with Jesus,
He was hanged on the cross.

Do you know what happened with Mohammed,
He was taken out of his flesh.

Do you know what what happend with Guru Aurjan dev ji,
He was forced to sit on hot pan

For what ?
Atheists was not able to Trust on the evidences given by these big personalities," Who am I "
Do you think that people of that time did that for some another reasons other than God ?

In reality arguers cannot digest the truth, only those who are seriously and wholehertedly in serch can digest any rubbish which devlops the love towards God.

That's why jesus has said in one of his quotes "the difference between Goats & Sheeps", (you may be knowing)

Otherwise what is the use of that Quote.

After everything, Orbital ji, Who am I, Everything is in the hands of God.

You have gone from: People say 'God' a lot, to therefore 'God' exists.

I have given you an explanation to why this is a common expressions used in shocking experiences, but yet you still agree with your previous fallacious statement.

Orbital ji, You are right on your side,
But to me the feelings matter a lot and everything.

_/\_ Chinu.

 

[Onkara]

U are a nice person, I respect you a lot.

I have that impression too, it is a pleasure to communicate with you, Orbital

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

@mohammed

Yes, It is genetically 'coded' (please don't read too much into that word) to survive and go for her mother's milk. But by a genetic mutation the mammal you described could simply lose its lust to go for its mothers milk and therefore die. The sensors and parts of its brain could be shattered/broken in such a way that it would not know how to feed itself, this is what our society would name a 'severely handicapped being'.

so do you mean it is genetically coded by chance ?

 

[Orbital]

Existence and consciousness are the same.

Alright, so consousness=existence.

Consciousness means more than being awake. But being awake allows us to understand consciousness.

Existence means more than being awake. But being awake allows us to understand existence.
Sort of still makes sense so far.

Consciousness can be known through what it is not. Through negating everything you are left with the foundation: consciousness.

If you replace consciousness with existence in this sentence it does not make any sense, but I will continue anways.

Universe-Universe=consciousness Does this mean consciousness is not part of the universe?

If you enter a dark room and turn on a tourch, the light will reflect the objects in the room. The light is consciousness. The room and the objects are the material universe. Your light, your consciousness, allows you to experience the world.

I'll have another go: consciousness (or existence) allows to you expereince the world. Makes sense.

The contrary is when you are in deep sleep, you experience nothing, not even your body.

Yes you do. Infact, your body is one of the only things you expereince. The body tries to take in as little outside information in as possible to compute the current information that you have.

,the world ceases to exist, but only temporarily.

No, because one still expereinces the world, even in sleep.

,Consciousness, as per my definition, still exists as it is parallel with existence.

Yes, you still exist when you sleep.

,The world and your body is an object. It depends on this unfathomable consciousness for it to be know, to be experienced by consciousness.

If I tell you consciousness is life, you will be none the happier as that is too broad a definition. I cannot define consciousness without making it a limited lie. So to define consciousness we must first see that it is the light which illuminates all existence. Everything which is known by you.

Defining consciousness as life is too broad, yet you cannot define consciousness without makeing it a limited lie... I hope you see the contradiction in that.

Since you made a couple of contradicting and confusing statements I'm going to assume that consciousness is the ablity to experience the existence of other objects. If that is the case then consciousness is dependant on the material world, not the otherway around as you described. Am I right in saying that this would go into the catagory of a 'soul'? As in that consciousness would have to bo in a sort of different dimension if material existence is dependant upon it.

 

[Orbital]

@mohammed

I defined chance, as in the possibility of something happening. (20 percent chance of rain, there is a good chance that this child will be blonde if the parents are both blonde, etc.)
I then asked if you defined chance as 'not being dictated by an entity'. I assume you are still running under this definition?

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

@mohammed

I defined chance, as in the possibility of something happening. (20 percent chance of rain, there is a good chance that this child will be blonde if the parents are both blonde, etc.)
I then asked if you defined chance as 'not being dictated by an entity'. I assume you are still running under this definition?

so you put a posisbility that the universe may have a sufisticated balance and complicated system by it self.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

So far all the evidence presented for a god is and argument from ignorance.

Does ANYBODY have and actual evidence?

-Q

 

[Orbital]

so you put a posisbility that the universe may have a sufisticated balance and complicated system by it self.

No, I am saying that everything that every happened had a possibility of happening (which is why I said yes, it did happen by chance). I have not made any statements of the origin of the universe.

Negating that the universe created itself does not prove that a a being created the universe knowingly and made everything according to his 'plan'.
(I'm assuming that is the god you are trying to prove since you follow the religion of Islam)

@Onkara

I think I may see where you are going with this.

Do you define existence to have a necessity of consciousness?

If so then I can agree with most of what you have said. Without consciousness there can be nothing that 'exists' (with the above definition).

Although this seems to be going into the territory of solipsism.

But if you define existence without the use of consciousness then I cannot agree.

As when something resides in reality, it exists regardless of whether one can be concious of its existence or not.

 

[chinu]

So far all the evidence presented for a god is and argument from ignorance.
Does ANYBODY have and actual evidence?
-Q

Try this,
God
I have not written this above, can U prove ?


_/\_ Chinu. (Not God)

 

[Onkara]

So far all the evidence presented for a god is and argument from ignorance.

Does ANYBODY have and actual evidence?

-Q

With respect, it is ignorance which conceals the truth. Remove the ignorance and the answer will reveal itself. Your question presumes there is still ignorance to be "removed". Then the evidence will be self-evident... what could be better?!

 

[The Neo Nerd]

With respect, it is ignorance which conceals the truth.

Ohh yes it's because i fail to see the evidence that is right in front of me.

Remove the ignorance and the answer will reveal itself. Your question presumes there is still ignorance to be "removed".

No my response states that inability to understand how the universe came into existence is by no means evidence of god. It is only evidence of your inability to understand how the universe came into being.

Look i don't know how the universe came into being, but i'm not going to say it was magically poofed into existence by some god figure.

The ToMP (Theory of Magical Poofing) is great until the point where evidence is required to back it up and that is what we are asking for in this thread actual evidence to support this theory.

Now that we've established the difference between a theory and the evidence you can ahead and provide it.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

Ok that's great.

The god bit is something you are attaching to life. What I'm looking for is the link between life and god. Because all life proves is that life exists.

Do you get what I'm asking for here?

 

[The Neo Nerd]

I have to say your answer was very poetic.

The answer may come in reversing the question:
Why isn't life, God? Why isn't this life divine?

I really don't want to be going in circle with this particular discussion because i think it will lead us both to exasperation which is not conducive to a continuing discussion.

So let us sum up the discussion so far:

1. We ask for evidence of god.
2. You assert life proves god.
3. I ask how life proves god.
4. You assert life proves god.

Your assertion that god created life is the theory. What we are asking for is the evidence to back up this theory.

Do you understand?

-Q