tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
Methinks you completely missunderstand Deism.
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What evidence for God
- Thread starter nonbeliever_92
- Start date
nonbeliever_92
Well-Known Member
over a hundred pages and still no evidence.
outhouse
Atheistically
I dont think there ever will be any real evidence of any kind ever.
on a side note has there ever been any "real" evidence?
Wombat
Active Member
As stated in #990-
#953-
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2412450-post953.html
#954-
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2412452-post954.html
You can all make all the facepalms and "I can't see it" that you like....no one has stepped up to explain the two profound anomalies in probability nor to refute/rebut the argument.
The evidence/argument was re stated in #1000-
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2416420-post1000.html
If it does not qualify as ' evidence' ,of at very least something way out of the ordinary going on in the realm of religion, then is should be dead easy for someone/anyone to step up to the plate and explain the demonstrated anomoly.
Here...seeing as some complain the arguement is too big for them to handle...I'll make it simple...two single questions-
1/ Why do the religious 'greats' (unique and unlike the greats in any other field) have no living contemporaries in thier time? Why do we never get a Jesus and a Mohammed in the same timeframe over a ten thousand year period?
2/ Why the narrow geographical stable (India/Middle East) for the inception of the worlds great faiths? Why, in ten thousand years and an entire globe to work in do we never get a major living faith arise in all Europe, Africa, the Americas, SE Asia?
These two questions have been put in a dozen different forms in recent posts and not a single Atheist/non theist will step up and even attempt to adress, explain, rebut or discuss the issues.
All we get is lame ad hom, dismissiveness devoid of justifying argument and the intellectual equivalent of sticking fingers in ears and singing “La La La...I can’t hear you...there is no evidence”
outhouse
Atheistically
you might want to look into egyptian deitys and sumerian deitys
they both had deitys for thousands of years.
before that we dont know because writing only goes back 6000 years.
higher population density as well as the middle east I believe has some of the first agricultural herritage.
because you need a civilization stable enough with writing capabilities to record such religions.
your asking cultural questions not religious ones.
man has been around for 200,000 years and all of that time he has worshipped something. be it the thunder gods, the lightning or earthquake or volcano gods. there has always been a deity.
the modern religions we have today arose because mans ability to record [writing] his religion gave it a foundation to grow apon .
without writing you would not have the major religions you have today. It all comes down to communication. Man developed his communication and his religions developed as well with it.. end of story
for the last time because its "here" is not proof of a deity in any way shape or form.
Wombat
Active Member
I did.
They are listed among the dead gods of dead religions (representing 'horses that fell') in the first of the links provided in prior post. (Have you even bothered to read the argument/evidence prior to responding?)
Yup...State Imposed >Favourites< with the full backing of the God King...a betting man at the time would have been wise to place good money on those religions/deitys going on for thousands of years into the future...and would have lost. A rank outsider- Moses Lad...broke through the field against all odds and ran on against all odds to become a 'great'- a Major Living Faith.
The question that remains...unanswered and untouched by your raising these dead deitys (no followers/no influence) is- Why didn't >ANY OF THEM< run on with Judaism as >CONTEMPORARIES<?
Out of the whole huge field of prior runners, favourites and contemporaries of Judaism >they all fall< and it becomes a one horse race.
Repeat THIS PATTERN for >ALL< of the Major Living Faiths.
Why.
Ah huh...That at very least is a direct answer to the question and that's a >FIRST< and I thank you for the effort.
Now....if it is a matter of "higher population density" then why haven't other regions reaching paralel or greater density provided Major Faiths in all the thousands of years they have had to do so? China? Europe? And why would being 'first' in agriculture give you an exclusive on religion? Why wouldn't pre industrial Europe- having the agriculture, the means, the printing press give birth to one of the worlds major faiths? Atheists keep telling me/us "Man made religion","Anyone can do it"...so why don't we see pairs of major faiths arising from China? Clusters thereof from Europe?
Why is it such a clearly knobbled race when it comes to religion?
Oh come on....We have had >hundreds< of such stable civilizations and >thousands< of written stories, myths, and philosophies that are produced and endure as '>CONTEMPORARIES<....but religions come in singular discreet and isolated sequence (or die)...who wrote that rule of history?
No I'm asking questions of statistical probability regarding the "cultural" issue of 'religion'.
So...Logically...Once we have the "agriculture", the "population density" the "stable civilization" and the "ability to record [writing] we are off and running with the foundation for religion to grow upon....So with the advent of 'Scribes' and 'Papyrus' and greater dissemination we ought see >MORE RELIGIONS< (and contemporary pairs of religions) and with all of the above pluss printing and publishing we ought see >AN EXPLOSION OF RELIGIONS< (in clusters and groups)..>>>AS WE DO SEE IN OTHER FIELDS OF HUMAN ENDEVOUR<<<<.....
But in religion? No...regardless of population density, civilization, scribes or printing we just get .....1.....1..........1......1.........1.....1.... Major Living Faiths sequentialy in isolation.
When mankind increased his communication options and capacities "his AUTHORSHIP developed as well with it"- "his PHILOSOPHY developed as well with it"- "his SCIENCE developed as well with it" etc etc - And in >EVERY FIELD< and >THROUGHOUT HISTORY< and from >EVERY CORNER OF THE WORLD< we find CONTEMPORARY PAIRS, CLUSTERS AND GROUPS IN >>>ALL<<< THESE FIELDS.....
...............................except religion......................
'writing'.........does not explain that.
It is not the fact of religion being "here" that is being put forward as "proof of a deity".
The arguement and evidence is clear, there is an obvious anomaly in probability in the history of religion and the isolated and sequential major living faiths.
Agriculture, stable civilization, population density and writing do not explain anything in regard the identified anomaly...in fact they indicate we should be seeing a far greater number of major faiths arising and contending............but we don't.
I thank you, for at very least, having the honesty and intellectual integrity to be the first and only to try to adress the questions arising.
Albeit unsuccessfully.
outhouse
Atheistically
you cant stage a question to get the right answer only you desire. a staged question is not a answer to the OP's question. no one wants to play your personal game.
they fell because of a drought that hit the area and the agricultural food supply dried up and could no longer support the large advanced civilization in the area.
your question or statement to rationalize religion doesnt apply as its more a cultural question. another reason why educated people wont waist their time with your game.
this is false, first you need to prove moses is real and not a fictional charactor. As far as history and scholars are concerned he is fictional. Also in history no where does moses stop the sumerian culture so your arguement fails miserably there as well.
you mighty want to learn ancient history in the region your talking about because some of the people of these cultures all moved into and are part of ancient hebrews herritage.
As a matter of fact according to some scholars and historians these previous religions all have parts built right into the ancient hebrew text and storys.
examples are
moses [law giver] who probably had a different name, left egypt and brought the ten commandments. the egyptian book of the dead almost reads word for word the ten commandments.
the sumerians have noahs story almost word for word and that was also brought to the ancient hebrews culture.
what you may fail to realize is that ancient hebrews were a people with nothing of their own. They started as a culture around 1250BC and started writing about 1000BC. The first writing they did were from oral tales and fables and storys that were past around 300-500 years before they were even a known culture. Some of these storys are believed to come from the previous religions
so much for your fallen horses, they're still running. Maybe you should look at days of the week and where the names come from before you start talking about fallen horses because you fail there as well. there is no day named after jesus or the hebrew god.
Pagan origins of names of days and months
The First Day: Sunday was named after the Sun god.
The second Day: Monday was named after the moon goddess.
The Third Day: Tuesday was named after the god Tyr.
The Fourth Day: Wednesday was named after the god Odin.
The Fifth Day: Thursday was named after the god Thor.
The Sixth Day: Friday was named after the goddess Frigga.
The Seventh Day: Saturday was named after the god Saturn.
because it slowed people down. Instead of being nomadic and holding oral tales and fables that would die out. People started building homes and having farms and becoming small citys and towns.
you miss the point its not exlusive to religion its exlusive to culture. As a culture grows so does its religion generally. even if told in oral tales and fables.
which is a question of culture first and foremost.
I find this wrong
because people want to believe in something doesnt make it true
people for the last 200,000 years have believed in something but that didnt make the thunder gods real
and at that time there were.
if what you state is true then judaism should be a dominant religion. it is far from that.
I might add that your the "only one" with your view and there is not a historian or scholar that would follow your view
under the guess of probablility, why didnt the hebrew god expose himself to early man 200,000 years ago when homo sapiens first started?
or was it probabal that a new culture created a religion as all cultures have in the past???? probabal doesnt cut it
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PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
Probability is not an argument, because it's completely impossible to say how many "attempts" there are.
Wombat
Active Member
That’s good to know.
I haven’t.
What you seek to dismiss without cause or justification as a “staged question” I stand by as a rational and logical establishment (assisted by Atheists) of the parameters of probability...the odds of an event occurring. As yet no one has discounted those odds nor given cause for them to be dismissed.
Ah huh...and this happened to all the fallen religions of the period in other regions? And all the fallen religions in subsequent periods? And through it all Judaism was not under threat from like conditions? The Babylonian Exile was not bigger and just as devastating as any drought? Finaly...Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity and Islam are just lucky to be drought resistant religions?
No.....The “drought” explanation makes no sense.
Would that be the game of trying to demean the other by suggesting they are engaged in some kind of “personal game” rather than engaging in honest straightforward discussion? No...that’s not my game.
Have not denied for one second that the great surviving religious traditions absorbed/preserved all kinds of religious/cultural aspects. In fact prior to conquest and enslavement by the Babylonians it was commonplace for the houses of the Israelites to be adorned with little fertility Goddesses. The Israelites, rather than being crushed and abandoning their faith in the face of something as insignificant as “drought”, conquest-enslavement and exile, reviewed their faith and covenant, returned to Israel and subsequent to the return from exile Archaeologists find no trace of the prior commonplace fertility Goddesses. (Please tell me again what I ought read up on
)All religions evolve, absorb and abandon components....but the vast majority die to nothing and a scant handful live on.
LOL!
You can’t be serious.
“ Sunday was named after the Sun god.” ....And this means that worship of RA the Sun God is alive and well!!!??? On any given Sunday you will find the Devotees of the Sun God sacrificing themselves on beaches as burnt offerings?
Thor lives as a God and reflective of a living faith because “Thursday was named after the god Thor”!!!!!!???????
When it comes to “fallen horses” you are quite literally- “Flogging a dead horse”.
No...I answered your point directly and asked direct questions pertaining to your stated “higher population density”+ first agricultural” pov. You decline to answer any of these pertinent questions-
................
Originally Posted by outhouse
higher population density as well as the middle east I believe has some of the first agricultural herritage..
Now....if it is a matter of "higher population density" then why haven't other regions reaching parallel or greater density provided Major Faiths in all the thousands of years they have had to do so? China? Europe? And why would being 'first' in agriculture give you an exclusive on religion? Why wouldn't pre industrial Europe- having the agriculture, the means, the printing press give birth to one of the worlds major faiths? Atheists keep telling me/us "Man made religion","Anyone can do it"...so why don't we see pairs of major faiths arising from China? Clusters thereof from Europe?
.............
Quote:
No I'm asking questions of statistical probability regarding the "cultural" issue of 'religion'
Then you would need to show how these unidentified “cultural” factors impinge on religion but not on Philosophy, Science, Art, Authorship.......why just religion with such narrow sequential isolated outcomes?
Quote:
The argument and evidence is clear, there is an obvious anomaly in probability in the history of religion and the isolated and sequential major living faiths.
Yes...but having stated so you fail to articulate how and why
An interesting and shared observation that says nothing to the argument being presented.
You offer this >as if< I/anyone had claimed “believing in something” makes it true.
I fail to see any connection between what I have argued and the Straw Man you are arguing against.
Who is it that has believed in the “thunder gods” “for the last 200,000 years”????
with all of the above pluss printing and publishing we ought see >AN EXPLOSION OF RELIGIONS< (in clusters and groups)..>>>
AS IN EVERY AGE!.....LOTS of Starters, LOTS of Contenders, Lots of “clusters and groups” ....but in the end only a handful of horses, isolated at inception, run on to survive.
Still no explanation on the table as to why this is so over ten thousand years.
No. Not at all. I and the argument presented are satisfied that it is a >surviving religion< when all else are so dead they get no other mention than as a day in the week....and even then few if any pay any heed that Thursday belongs to Thor. It’s a dead horse.
(I’ll be away for two weeks over a culturally absorbed period that now belongs and is celebrated by one of the great living religious tradition survivor/anomaly faiths- the Christian ‘Easter’.
Feel free to fill the thread with the celebratory dates of the “moon goddess” and “the god Saturn” in the interim.
I will be in the mountains of Tasmania...pursuing the nimble and elusive “goddess Frigga”
Wombat
Active Member
It does not matter "how many "attempts" there are" beyond the certainty that there have been >HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS< recorded and probably >THOUSANDS< gone unrecorded and yet....against all odds and all probability and all comparative fields of "attempt"....there are just a handfull of major living faiths apearing in isolated sequence-
Hindu.....Buddhist....Zoroastrian....Judaism.......Christianity......Islam......
....1.........1..............1...............1..................1................1........
No pairs, no clusters, no groups........no way...............it is way beyond the odds.
kennyson
Fear God & nothing else.
First we need to downsize, to bring it into a perspective everyone can see and go fron the entire universe to a little closer to home ie nature and things we can see, ok. Now lets talk about the concept of good and evil. If we can agree that nature exists and the good and evil exsts then I can show you God.
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
- Yes, nature exists.
- No, good and evil exist only as concepts of social ethics.
kennyson
Fear God & nothing else.
Man has become like us knowing both Good and evil. The Bible also says that every man knows there's a God, but I am going to play fair, I don't intend to try and use the bible to prove that God exists. I can prove it beyond a shodow of a dought using simple logic.
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
First, let's clarify.
Are we talking a generic God concept, or specifically the Abrahamic God of Christianity?
RitalinO.D.
Well-Known Member
This will be an interesting feat, considering the most intelligent religious leaders haven't been able to do so.
BTW, not trying to be a spelling/grammar nazi or anything but it's spelled doubt, not dought. Just tryin to help ya out. No offense meant.
Commoner
Headache
Finally we're going to get some real evidence.