What evidence would be required for you to abandon your religious belief

[Saint Frankenstein]

So what. There could be 20 local Nazi parties and every leader would want to be the king Nazi. And if abiding by the definition of socialism, in this case that government controls business, is garbage, then you just don't like it cause Hitler is so universally hated. You can't call yourself National Socialists and then have nothing socialist to point to.

Why don't you look at the link I posted? No one but ignorant right-wing Americans stuck in the Cold War make the claim that the Nazis were leftists and socialists. It's a stupid, garbage claim with nothing to back it up.

If it's the government enslaving people, it is socialism, whether it communism or fascism. Take a look at the Chicoms or Vietnam, N. Korea, Cambodia...... Or is communism not socialism.

You don't even know what socialism is. Or Fascism.

So what, it's what he did. In fact, the US is well on the highway to fascist hell right now. And as with Germany, businesses here aren't going to turn down corporate welfare, especially when it comes with favorable legislation.

I can agree that the US is lurching towards a sort of American neo-fascism, but it's the lunatics in the Republican Party taking us there.

It isn't capitalism if the government is calling the shots, including micromanaging every facet of business. It's national socialism.

You obviously don't know what capitalism is, either. Stop getting your talking points from the idiots and liars at the Mises Institute.

 

[Milton Platt]

My conversion was experiential in nature, so I suppose some evidence of a physiological event that would account for someone happily ensconced in a fairly rationalistic, materialistic agnosticism being moved to faith would have been something of a relief following. There wasn't any as it turns out (of course I checked, who wouldn't?) and no other discernible reason for the event, no subsequent impairment of cognitive function or clarity, as I continued through law school and the bar and into practice.

I suppose then there isn't anything that I can think of that would move me from my faith. And given empirical evidence isn't sufficient to settle the question, it's hard to imagine what could reasonably convince me that my faith was false at this point.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Most do not seem to have as much thought behind the answers, and one or two berated me for asking. So, in your opinion, faith trumps evidence? I am an atheist, but there is no plan to berate and belittle folks who believe in their respective gods. It was a question without an agenda behind it.

 

[Milton Platt]

Isn't your intent here to proselytize against religion??

Nope.

 

[popsthebuilder]

There is nothing that could deter me from my Faith and belief in God as all is and was done by God.

 

[Milton Platt]

There is nothing that could deter me from my Faith and belief in God as all is and was done by God.

Thank you for your candid response. So are you saying that you go on faith alone and the examination of evidence is not a requirement for your beliefs, or that you feel you have examined the available evidence (or lack thereof) for and against a god and reached a conclusion that way?

 

[popsthebuilder]

Thank you for your candid response. So are you saying that you go on faith alone and the examination of evidence is not a requirement for your beliefs, or that you feel you have examined the available evidence (or lack thereof) for and against a god and reached a conclusion that way?

My evidence is irrefutable to myself and coincides with scientific knowledge completely. This evidence is inobservable by others though. Also, I use scripture of multiple religions to confirm the things that I know.

 

[Milton Platt]

My evidence is irrefutable to myself and coincides with scientific knowledge completely. This evidence is inobservable by others though. Also, I use scripture of multiple religions to confirm the things that I know.

That clears up a few questions I had running around inside my head, thanks for the clarification.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

There is nothing that could deter me from my Faith and belief in God as all is and was done by God.

What if God came and told you that Yes I do exist, but other than that, you got it all wrong.

 

[popsthebuilder]

What if God came and told you that Yes I do exist, but other than that, you got it all wrong.

Doesn't make sense. Irrelevant to the op.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Doesn't make sense. Irrelevant to the op.

I was addressing your statement.

 

[popsthebuilder]

I was addressing your statement.

Yeah, I know.

My Faith and direction was instilled in me, by God. So your statement makes no sense to me. God wouldn't lie, and it doesn't joke around.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

God wouldn't lie, and it doesn't joke around.

Yeah, I agree, God wouldn't, and I never implied that It would.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Well then what are you trying to say or ask?

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Well then what are you trying to say or ask?

It's right there, #108. What if.....

 

[popsthebuilder]

It's right there, #108. What if.....

What would he be saying I got wrong?

 

[Milton Platt]

Yeah, I agree, God wouldn't, and I never implied that It would.

Actually, how would you know a god would not lie and how would you determine if it did? On what evidence would you rely, or how would you even gather evidence for that matter. How can you tell humanity is not the butt of some massive cosmic joke.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Actually, how would you know a god would not lie and how would you determine if it did? On what evidence would you rely, or how would you even gather evidence for that matter. How can you tell humanity is not the butt of some massive cosmic joke.

That's a good question but irrelevant here. I'm merely agreeing with Pops' premise and going from there, but he's unable to think outside of his bibliobox.

But God's forthrightness is indicated by the absolute rational quality of the universe. Yes there are many unanswered paradoxes, but they've always been resolved rationally in the past and we can reasonably expect that trend to continue. The only thing that would make all this a cosmic joke, whether God exists or not, is if we have no free will and we are all the deterministic, subjectively moral, figment of some solipsist's imagination.

 

[Milton Platt]

That's a good question but irrelevant here. I'm merely agreeing with Pops' premise and going from there, but he's unable to think outside of his bibliobox.

But God's forthrightness is indicated by the absolute rational quality of the universe. Yes there are many unanswered paradoxes, but they've always been resolved rationally in the past and we can reasonably expect that trend to continue. The only thing that would make all this a cosmic joke, whether God exists or not, is if we have no free will and we are all the deterministic, subjectively moral, figment of some solipsist's imagination.

I think it could be argued with some success that true free will is an illusion. Not from the standpoint of some ethereal being pulling cosmic strings, but from the nature of our existence.
By which is meant that all of the decisions we make are actually influenced by current events and experiences as well as the accumulation of all previous experiences and decisions we have made during our life time. We are influenced by these as well as those we love and those we hate.

As to the free will versus predestination, I am unable to resolve how a god could be all knowing about every part of he future and yet you are free to make decisions that would alter the future of yourself and other. If he already knew what the decisions and outcomes are, that hardly represents free will. You are just unknowingly following the script.

I am familiar with only a tiny speck of the universe, so I cannot say how rational or not it is. And compared to what? We have no other universes to compare it to. Why could there not be a more rational one than this? Besides, a being in a universe which behaved according to an entirely different set of rules would probably think his universe was rational as well for the same reasons.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

I think it could be argued with some success that true free will is an illusion. Not from the standpoint of some ethereal being pulling cosmic strings, but from the nature of our existence.
By which is meant that all of the decisions we make are actually influenced by current events and experiences as well as the accumulation of all previous experiences and decisions we have made during our life time. We are influenced by these as well as those we love and those we hate.

True, but there are always exceptions that prove the rule (bad seeds, saints from the slums etc.) But beyond that, I think we make decisions often, if not every day, that go against our internal programming and and conditioning. We call it everything from spontaneity to loosing our minds. I, as many have done, left my birth religion against the wishes and wills of family and society, based solely on reason, and a passion for my philosophy to make sense to me.

As to the free will versus predestination, I am unable to resolve how a god could be all knowing about every part of he future and yet you are free to make decisions that would alter the future of yourself and other. If he already knew what the decisions and outcomes are, that hardly represents free will. You are just unknowingly following the script.

When God (if It exists) created this universe, it was as a stage for us to exercise out free will that evolved in our psyches. It was a gift, a part of God if you will. IOW free will requires that God not be able to know our futures or the impact of our decisions on others and their decisions--which is for God's benefit as well as ours. How else could God experience surprise, or delight, or disappointment. And our free will only applies to moral decisions and creativity, it's not a pass on natural law.

am familiar with only a tiny speck of the universe, so I cannot say how rational or not it is. And compared to what? We have no other universes to compare it to. Why could there not be a more rational one than this?

If there is another universe, it/they may be different than this one, but they would have to be just as rational, in order to have a rational stage on which to make rational moral decisions. Nothing can be accomplished in chaos.

Besides, a being in a universe which behaved according to an entirely different set of rules would probably think his universe was rational as well for the same reasons.

Exactly, and it would be! It would have to be if they were to have free will, which is the only reason for the universe(s). An omnipotent God could docreate anything else instantly.

Of one thing I'm sure, if we don't have free will, then we are not our own selves. We are not like parents and children, we're God and newborn souls. If you could choose, would you pack a dog, or a lifelike programmable facsimile? WE, of course, a lot more complicated. Our free will is born of our full self-awareness, not just consciousness.

 

[Milton Platt]

You are making a lot of assumptions without support. (I could not figure out multi quote worked or I would have line itemed it to make discussion easier)
Anyway, you are making statements about what a supernatural deity would do, want, desire, and need. How do you come to know the mind of a god you cannot even demonstrate exists? An why would this type of being have human traits such as these? If you are going to speculate on the unknowable, you could also just assume this god was created by an even greater deity who created it without any of these traits. You could make up any story-line that pleased you.