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What evidence would be required for you to abandon your religious belief

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
You are making a lot of assumptions without support. (I could not figure out multi quote worked or I would have line itemed it to make discussion easier)
Anyway, you are making statements about what a supernatural deity would do, want, desire, and need. How do you come to know the mind of a god you cannot even demonstrate exists?

IF God exits, it stand to reason It would have created the universe for a reason. How many reasons could there be for a God living all by Itself in empty space? Angels would be nothing but divine yes-men--extensions of Itself. Now consider that God could eliminate many billions of options for companionship or relief from boredom in an instant--and in the next instant, Big Bang.

An why would this type of being have human traits such as these? If you are going to speculate on the unknowable, you could also just assume this god was created by an even greater deity who created it without any of these traits. You could make up any story-line that pleased you.

If it wasn't driven by a need for companionship and such, what then the need of a universe? It keeps coming back to creatures with full self-awareness and free will. And if there WAS some other reason, why then not dwell openly among us them?
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
IF God exits, it stand to reason It would have created the universe for a reason. How many reasons could there be for a God living all by Itself in empty space? Angels would be nothing but divine yes-men--extensions of Itself. Now consider that God could eliminate many billions of options for companionship or relief from boredom in an instant--and in the next instant, Big Bang.



If it wasn't driven by a need for companionship and such, what then the need of a universe? It keeps coming back to creatures with full self-awareness and free will. And if there WAS some other reason, why then not dwell openly among us them?

But it has not been established that a god exists, and it certainly has not been demonstrated that if a god existed it created anything much less a universe. You cannot possibly know anything about what was or was not before the big bang.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I can decide if dead substance preceded life.

science would be firm about it.....the dead do not beget the living.

science would be firm about it...an object at rest will not move....without Something to move it.

the singularity never would have happened without God.
same for us
 

TheGunShoj

Active Member
Directed primarily at Christians,as that is the dominant religion where I live, but all are welcome.

What evidence would you need to be personally convinced that your religion was false?

I feel like this question is nearly impossible for anyone to answer. They obviously haven't encountered such evidence otherwise they would not be the religion that they are. So they can't possibly know what sort of evidence that would be.

As an atheist though, I have an easy out. If there is an all knowing and all powerful god, it would know exactly what evidence would be required to change my mind but either doesn't exist or doesn't care enough to provide it to me :)
 

Mackerni

Libertarian Unitarian
1. Prove to me entropy will always exist no matter what
Won't Believe It
2. Prove to me there is an end to evolution
Won't Believe It
3. Prove to me a different religion is correct.
Unless it's the Baha'i Faith I won't believe it.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
As an atheist though, I have an easy out. If there is an all knowing and all powerful god, it would know exactly what evidence would be required to change my mind but either doesn't exist or doesn't care enough to provide it to me :)

There's a third possibility that neither atheists nor theists like to consider: that a God might have created the universe with the intent of making God's existence unknowable, in order to establish and maintain sentient free will--the sole purpose of the universe. An omnipotent God could have done anything else instantly.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
But it has not been established that a god exists, and it certainly has not been demonstrated that if a god existed it created anything much less a universe. You cannot possibly know anything about what was or was not before the big bang.

We can make rational speculations about God, IF It exists. And if God were irrational, then there'd be no rational universe, only chaos, and us non-existent.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
There's a third possibility that neither atheists nor theists like to consider: that a God might have created the universe with the intent of making God's existence unknowable, in order to establish and maintain sentient free will--the sole purpose of the universe. An omnipotent God could have done anything else instantly.

Can you elaborate...I don't follow your logic. Why would god be knowable without a universe (hence he had to create something to be unknowable)? Wouldn't he have already been unknowable, since there was ostensibly nothing to know him? And how did you establish as a fact that the universe had a purpose without first presuming the existence of the god?
 
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Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
I feel like this question is nearly impossible for anyone to answer. They obviously haven't encountered such evidence otherwise they would not be the religion that they are. So they can't possibly know what sort of evidence that would be.

As an atheist though, I have an easy out. If there is an all knowing and all powerful god, it would know exactly what evidence would be required to change my mind but either doesn't exist or doesn't care enough to provide it to me :)

I know...I'm an atheist as well. Just trying to stimulate thought and conversation. Most religious belief is not based upon evidence.
 
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Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
1. Prove to me entropy will always exist no matter what
Won't Believe It
2. Prove to me there is an end to evolution
Won't Believe It
3. Prove to me a different religion is correct.
Unless it's the Baha'i Faith I won't believe it.

Thanks for your response to my question. Not sure I follow why the first two "proofs" are relevant one way or the other as far as either proving or disproving a religion. But be that as it may, am I correct in understanding that you would refuse to accept any evidence that runs counter to what you wish to believe?
 
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Deidre

Well-Known Member
Directed primarily at Christians,as that is the dominant religion where I live, but all are welcome.

What evidence would you need to be personally convinced that your religion was false?

I did abandon it, and then recently returned because I had an experience of faith. I still have some misgivings with the Bible, but because of this experience, I can't imagine ever abandoning Christianity again. Because I've been convinced it's a true path now, whether anyone else believes that or not, I believe it. So, not sure anything could 'convince' me in the other direction. But, barring this experience, I wouldn't have returned, as I mainly relied on the Bible when I was a Christian before, and the Bible has a lot of problems with it, if you rely solely on it for your faith beliefs. IMHO.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
IF God exits, it stand to reason It would have created the universe for a reason. How many reasons could there be for a God living all by Itself in empty space? Angels would be nothing but divine yes-men--extensions of Itself. Now consider that God could eliminate many billions of options for companionship or relief from boredom in an instant--and in the next instant, Big Bang.



If it wasn't driven by a need for companionship and such, what then the need of a universe? It keeps coming back to creatures with full self-awareness and free will. And if there WAS some other reason, why then not dwell openly among us them?

he first four words of your reply (IF a god exists...)are at the heart of the problem.....the existence of the god has not yet been established.
"consider that god could eliminate...." How can we consider what the god can or would do or not do in a given set of circumstances (circumstances which we also cannot know)
Why would an infinite being be endowed with human emotion (boredom, etc)?
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
I did abandon it, and then recently returned because I had an experience of faith. I still have some misgivings with the Bible, but because of this experience, I can't imagine ever abandoning Christianity again. Because I've been convinced it's a true path now, whether anyone else believes that or not, I believe it. So, not sure anything could 'convince' me in the other direction. But, barring this experience, I wouldn't have returned, as I mainly relied on the Bible when I was a Christian before, and the Bible has a lot of problems with it, if you rely solely on it for your faith beliefs. IMHO.

Thank you for your clear and honest answer. Can I inquire not as to why you returned, but as to why you left in initially?
 

Mackerni

Libertarian Unitarian
Thanks for your response to my question. Not sure I follow why the first two "proofs" are relevant one way or the other as far as either proving or disproving a religion. But be that as it may, am I correct in understanding that you would refuse to accept any evidence that runs counter to what you wish to believe?

While i do not have a set of religious creeds, my own oath and faith is that of a novel approach. I believe in panapotheosis, and I believe the causation of it will be intelligent life throughout the universe. You can read about it here.

If there was evidence to what Baha'u'llah was saying, I might believe it. i have a fondness for the Baha'i Faith. But, let's say I died, went to heaven, and came back to Earth. I still wouldn't believe that any other religion is correct.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
Thank you for your clear and honest answer. Can I inquire not as to why you returned, but as to why you left in initially?

I felt that Christianity was a man made concoction, based on logically looking at the Bible, piece by piece. Eventually stopped praying, stopped going to church. Then, became indifferent to Jesus, and all that I had been raised with. Eventually claimed to be an atheist, but honestly, felt empty at times. When you have religion all of your life, it can be hard to 'let it go.' Even if logically you feel it's the right thing to let go of. I know this sounds crazy lol but, I see it all differently, now. Even the Bible readings. And maybe subjective reasoning is just as important as objective reasoning. I feel this way now because of the experience I had recently ...what I consider to be an 'encounter' with the Holy Spirit. I know you won't believe me, but it happened. :D

That's the best I can put it all to words.
 

arthra

Baha'i
While i do not have a set of religious creeds, my own oath and faith is that of a novel approach. I believe in panapotheosis, and I believe the causation of it will be intelligent life throughout the universe. You can read about it here.

If there was evidence to what Baha'u'llah was saying, I might believe it. i have a fondness for the Baha'i Faith. But, let's say I died, went to heaven, and came back to Earth. I still wouldn't believe that any other religion is correct.


So Mackerni... I read your reference to intelligent life... You wouldn't be selling encyclopedias by any chance? I had a friend that used to sell them as a sideline.. He was a teacher and I had gone to university with him. Anyway .. Later I got into Social Work in an office nearby and one of my clients happened to tell me that this same salesman sold him a set of encyclopedias! They were supposed to be designed for children but his son was dyslexic and couldn't read. He bought them because of the spiel of my "friend".. He didn't need them really .. Needless to say I was disappointed in my friend.. that he would stoop to anything to make a sale.

You mentioned Baha'i faith above in your posts.... You realize of course that Baha'is don't believe you "come back to earth" after you're dead? or were you just making a rhetorical point?
 

Mackerni

Libertarian Unitarian
So Mackerni... I read your reference to intelligent life... You wouldn't be selling encyclopedias by any chance? I had a friend that used to sell them as a sideline.. He was a teacher and I had gone to university with him. Anyway .. Later I got into Social Work in an office nearby and one of my clients happened to tell me that this same salesman sold him a set of encyclopedias! They were supposed to be designed for children but his son was dyslexic and couldn't read. He bought them because of the spiel of my "friend".. He didn't need them really .. Needless to say I was disappointed in my friend.. that he would stoop to anything to make a sale.

You mentioned Baha'i faith above in your posts.... You realize of course that Baha'is don't believe you "come back to earth" after you're dead? or were you just making a rhetorical point?

*chuckles* You must be referring to my belief that encyclopedias should be taken as scripture, aren't you? I don't sell anything ... in fact, I'm disabled.

Indeed, it was rhetorical.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Can you elaborate...I don't follow your logic. Why would god be knowable without a universe (hence he had to create something to be unknowable)? Wouldn't he have already been unknowable, since there was ostensibly nothing to know him? And how did you establish as a fact that the universe had a purpose without first presuming the existence of the god?

It isn't that God would be knowable without a universe (we wouldn't exist in the first place), it's that God couldn't have a Big Bang to hide It's existence behind so and thus must necessarily influence our free will by the mere knowledge of It's existence.

I don't under stand your second question?

And this is simply a speculation based on the assumption that God does exist. If It doesn't, then this is all out the window. Consider this: There's no evidence either way that God does or doesn't exist. If the universe came to be spontaneously, you'd think that without a will behind the creation, that there would be evidence coming to light for there being no creator--like say a pickle particle that was detected from before that Big Bang that might have caused the singularity. The lack of evidence suggests a possible purpose for there being no such evidence. But, unfortunately, we can't use a lack of evidence, as evidence. How unhelpfully convenient.

he first four words of your reply (IF a god exists...)are at the heart of the problem.....the existence of the god has not yet been established.
"consider that god could eliminate...." How can we consider what the god can or would do or not do in a given set of circumstances (circumstances which we also cannot know)
Why would an infinite being be endowed with human emotion (boredom, etc)?

Consider that a God, if It exists, who had the power to create the universe, would for all effects and purposes be omnipotent. Therefore, I can only think of one thing that God couldn't do instantaneously--share It's moral free will with fully self-aware creatures, while not influencing our exercise of same. Can you? And who says that emotions are limited to mortals.** Would you claim that God would be incapable of the emotion of love? I believe that any conscious, self-aware entity would crave companionship of something other than yes-angelic extensions of Itself, at least we have no reason to believe otherwise. I believe that the Bible got this part right, that our image by which we are likened to God (if It exists), is not our physical appearance, but our free will born of our full self-awareness.

** A ship without reason is without rational guidance, and without the motive power of emotions, is dead in the water.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
While i do not have a set of religious creeds, my own oath and faith is that of a novel approach. I believe in panapotheosis, and I believe the causation of it will be intelligent life throughout the universe. You can read about it here.
That link reads like a bunch of gibberish. You're a transhumanist, which itself has turned into a sort of sci-fi religion. I don't see the need to come up with a bunch of confusing, pretentious gobbledygook to describe it.
 
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