What gives your 'God' the right to damn? What condones burning for eternity?

[DistinctReason]

Looking forward to getting opinions on this from religious minds and also people who do not follow a religion.

I am NOT Religious..

The one thing I cannot accept about all religions is the after life. You get in or you don't. Not including purgatory.

I will explain this using Christianity.
Your after life all depends on the life you live now, whether your 'good or bad'
One of the first questions I asked a Christian was 'How are people bad if God made us that way, why didnt he make us all good' Which I was given the usual speach about the gift of Free Will yadaa yadaa. And for a while I simply accepted that.
But now what I dont understand is, yes we have free will, the ability to make good and bad choices, but do we really? To the extent that we can be judged by them? Eternally?

No body is born evil. The beaten grow up to beat there own and I am aware of the constant moral debate about whether you can blame a person for beating their child when they were beaten their whole life. My opinion on this matter is yes they are still to blame, plenty of people brake out of that cycle. Its 2013 with the amount of deadbeat parents there are nar days simply 'I had a bad upbringing' isnt enough of an excuse anymore. But thats this life, on earth.

Now before I make my actual point I have to explain a few points that I view as facts

God is not evil
God loves his creations
God understands his creations

So, if you agree with those points how can you accept that God would damn a man to hell forEVER for the bad deeds he committed in his life when no child is born evil, so it must be things that have effected him in this life to cause him to act that way? A normal fully functioning human being does not enjoy doing bad things, so they do not do them, if they do, they either do not intend to or do not know what they are doing is bad. If they do not what they are doing they are not a fully functioning human being so how can they be blamed? Its not there fault!

There are true stories of very young children doing very evil things, which could dispute the fact that no child is born evil, but thats not the point im making, even if a child is born and is 'evil' that backs my point that they cannot be blamed. This includes people with mental health issues

When I asked a Christian about this once they said it is the devil that makes people do bad things; I replied that by claiming that they are admitting it is not the humans fault; They said yes it is because the person should of made the right decision, but in eyes they still cannot really be blamed because there is a reason they made this decision, that God as our creator should be able to understand.
The only dispute to this argument I can think of is if the devil actually appeared to someone of average intelligence and correct mental state, told them to do something, and they did it, knowing that the deed was evil. Then I could accept it.

To summorize; There are many reasons people do bad things, the only true difference is whether the person is sane or not. If you a concious of doing something bad you should be punished for it. But there is a thick line between punishment and torture. You punish someone to teach them a lesson. Heaven and hell are eternal, you cant vist one and pop to the other. So hell is not a punishment it is torture. And i do not believe that a God who understands his creations would torture them for making wrong decisions that really, they did not choose to make. A human being does not get to choose the person they become, of course they can choose how they act, but not there actual self. You can have urges to kill and keep them locked away, because you are strong enough too. Can we really torture people for not being strong enough? Yes. Can God? Maybe, but is doing that not contradicting the reason hes doing it?


Also, you could dispute this by saying God doesnt understand us enough to be able to accept the reasons we do bad deeds, if this is true, how does he have the right to judge us for them?

 

[McBell]

What gives your 'God' the right to damn? What condones burning for eternity?

Who is gonna stop him?
God said so.

 

[DistinctReason]

Youve taken that completely out of context. I am asking why he would do such a thing, not why he has the power to do so

 

[Kilgore Trout]

What's not to love about God punishing everyone who disagrees with my beliefs?

 

[Sunstone]

Being burnt in hell for all eternity seems a rather mild punishment compared to the heinous sin of doubting the existence of a deity.

 

[McBell]

Youve taken that completely out of context. I am asking why he would do such a thing, not why he has the power to do so

And I gave you an answer as to why he might do it that way.

 

[DistinctReason]

I am surprised at your replies.
I always thought of God as a man of Love not a man of Rage.

I never even considered being damned simply for disbelieving, thats not evil.
Are you saying your God would condemn someone for naivety?
If so why do you choose to believe in such a thing?

 

[McBell]

I am surprised at your replies.
I always thought of God as a man of Love not a man of Rage.

I never even considered being damned simply for disbelieving, thats not evil.
Are you saying your God would condemn someone for naivety?
If so why do you choose to believe in such a thing?

It is evil when your god declares it is evil.
I make no god claims.
I do not worship any god.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Rights
I dont believe in God but I will make the following assumptions for the sake of this thread:

• God(s) exist
• God(s) has/have intellectual and emotional capabilities
• God(s) was/were responsible for our intentional creation
• We have intellectual and emotional capabilities
• God(s) is/are aware of our circumstances and behavior
• God(s) desire(s) to change our behavior

I would point out that most religious people appeal to a perception that there exists a legitimate authority originating as a result of creation, that is having created us God(s) own us - this is a common basis by which specific claims about divine will are considered to be something that people have an obligation to attempt to fulfill. However one must ask whether or not such an argument is valid in the first place.

Were we to replace:

• "God(s)" with "Parent(s)"
• "our" with "their Children's"
• "We" With "Their Children"

Do parents have unfettered rights over their children's lives?

Were we to replace:

• "God(s)" with "Scientist(s)"
• "our" with "the Artificial Intelligence's"
• "We" with "Artificial Intelligence may"

Would scientists have unfettered rights over an artificial intelligence's existence?

It is quite sound to argue that a human can have rights over a creation such as a hammer, because there are no other entities involved that could be considered to have rights that might either discount or even invalidate that human's right. The same can not be said of a creation such as a human clone with intellectual or emotional capabilities. Regardless of the creator's motivations that resulted in (or facilitated) creation, the development of cognitive abilities results in the acquisition of self interests (rights). The rights of a cognitive creation serve to diminish the validity of the imposition of the creator's (or anyone else's) rights.


Eternal Outcomes
It is not logical to assert that it is possible for any mortal entity to have acted in such a way as to merit eternal punishment or reward (indeed the closest that exists to this in reality is that of the concept of 'interest' an intellectual construct, the next closest is probably that of the concept 'dividend' - strange and quite telling that both are in economics). Even were one to assume that the intensity of the punishment or reward might vary in response to the severity of the behavior, a finite opportunity to have acted and actions that have finite good/bad outcomes - thus producing a finite amount of good/bad throughout the course of their opportunity (life) seems to have extraordinary difficulty justifying any infinite reward/punishment. Any evaluation mechanism so inclined towards such vastly disproportionate outcomes could not be described by the common use of the term 'just' or 'moral'.

 

[Pegg]

Looking forward to getting opinions on this from religious minds and also people who do not follow a religion.

I am NOT Religious..

The one thing I cannot accept about all religions is the after life. You get in or you don't. Not including purgatory.

I will explain this using Christianity.
Your after life all depends on the life you live now, whether your 'good or bad'
One of the first questions I asked a Christian was 'How are people bad if God made us that way, why didnt he make us all good' Which I was given the usual speach about the gift of Free Will yadaa yadaa. And for a while I simply accepted that.
But now what I dont understand is, yes we have free will, the ability to make good and bad choices, but do we really? To the extent that we can be judged by them? Eternally?

No body is born evil. The beaten grow up to beat there own and I am aware of the constant moral debate about whether you can blame a person for beating their child when they were beaten their whole life. My opinion on this matter is yes they are still to blame, plenty of people brake out of that cycle. Its 2013 with the amount of deadbeat parents there are nar days simply 'I had a bad upbringing' isnt enough of an excuse anymore. But thats this life, on earth.

Now before I make my actual point I have to explain a few points that I view as facts

God is not evil
God loves his creations
God understands his creations

So, if you agree with those points how can you accept that God would damn a man to hell forEVER for the bad deeds he committed in his life when no child is born evil, so it must be things that have effected him in this life to cause him to act that way? A normal fully functioning human being does not enjoy doing bad things, so they do not do them, if they do, they either do not intend to or do not know what they are doing is bad. If they do not what they are doing they are not a fully functioning human being so how can they be blamed? Its not there fault!

There are true stories of very young children doing very evil things, which could dispute the fact that no child is born evil, but thats not the point im making, even if a child is born and is 'evil' that backs my point that they cannot be blamed. This includes people with mental health issues

When I asked a Christian about this once they said it is the devil that makes people do bad things; I replied that by claiming that they are admitting it is not the humans fault; They said yes it is because the person should of made the right decision, but in eyes they still cannot really be blamed because there is a reason they made this decision, that God as our creator should be able to understand.
The only dispute to this argument I can think of is if the devil actually appeared to someone of average intelligence and correct mental state, told them to do something, and they did it, knowing that the deed was evil. Then I could accept it.

To summorize; There are many reasons people do bad things, the only true difference is whether the person is sane or not. If you a concious of doing something bad you should be punished for it. But there is a thick line between punishment and torture. You punish someone to teach them a lesson. Heaven and hell are eternal, you cant vist one and pop to the other. So hell is not a punishment it is torture. And i do not believe that a God who understands his creations would torture them for making wrong decisions that really, they did not choose to make. A human being does not get to choose the person they become, of course they can choose how they act, but not there actual self. You can have urges to kill and keep them locked away, because you are strong enough too. Can we really torture people for not being strong enough? Yes. Can God? Maybe, but is doing that not contradicting the reason hes doing it?


Also, you could dispute this by saying God doesnt understand us enough to be able to accept the reasons we do bad deeds, if this is true, how does he have the right to judge us for them?

I'll give you a different perspective... i'll give you the bibles perspective.

The bible tells us the account of the first man who sinned, Adam. It tells us what his punishment for his crime was

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.


There was no mentions of a place of torment for Adam. he was told that his punishment would be death and after he died, he would return to 'dust'

Some claim that its only the body that returns to dust, while the 'spirit' (which they think is a living entity) carries on in the spirit world, and its this spirit which is tormented in hell. However, the bible does not state any such thing....it say:

Ecclesiates 9:5*For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all,


So if the dead are not conscious, how can they experience any form of torment or suffering? They can't. Only a living conscious person can experience torment and suffering.


We all experience the same death, and we all end up in the same place according to the bible...the good and bad all end up in the dust together in an unconscious state. And all will be brought out of that state by God through a resurrection.
John 5:28*Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29*and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment

This proves that God does not punish the wicked by sending them to a place of torment forever. Both the righteous and wicked are in the same place until God brings them out....the condition is death, the place is the dust.

 

[Quintessence]

The one thing I cannot accept about all religions is the after life. You get in or you don't. Not including purgatory.

You kind of lost me here. Why do you have trouble accepting "all religions" when:

1) Not all religions have an afterlife concept; alternatively they put little if any focus on it.
2) Only a small segment of religious traditions have the kind of black and white afterlife vision you're describing.



As a contemporary Pagan, your arguments don't have any relevance to me or my religion.

But honestly... what gives the gods the right to damn? The capacity to do so. Just like your capacity to make arbitrary moral standards for yourself that you may or may not project on other creatures hinges on your own capacity to do so. The Christian god can do whatever the heck it wants provided it has the power to do so, and I don't particularly care what it does either way.

 

[DistinctReason]

I'll give you a different perspective... i'll give you the bibles perspective.

The bible tells us the account of the first man who sinned, Adam. It tells us what his punishment for his crime was

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.


There was no mentions of a place of torment for Adam. he was told that his punishment would be death and after he died, he would return to 'dust'

Some claim that its only the body that returns to dust, while the 'spirit' (which they think is a living entity) carries on in the spirit world, and its this spirit which is tormented in hell. However, the bible does not state any such thing....it say:

Ecclesiates 9:5*For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all,


So if the dead are not conscious, how can they experience any form of torment or suffering? They can't. Only a living conscious person can experience torment and suffering.


We all experience the same death, and we all end up in the same place according to the bible...the good and bad all end up in the dust together in an unconscious state. And all will be brought out of that state by God through a resurrection.
John 5:28*Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29*and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment

This proves that God does not punish the wicked by sending them to a place of torment forever. Both the righteous and wicked are in the same place until God brings them out....the condition is death, the place is the dust.

Are you saying the Bible teaches that there is no heaven and hell as we will not be concious when we die?

until God brings them out..

Please explain this

 

[DistinctReason]

You kind of lost me here. Why do you have trouble accepting "all religions" when:

1) Not all religions have an afterlife concept; alternatively they put little if any focus on it.
2) Only a small segment of religious traditions have the kind of black and white afterlife vision you're describing.



As a contemporary Pagan, your arguments don't have any relevance to me or my religion.

But honestly... what gives the gods the right to damn? The capacity to do so. Just like your capacity to make arbitrary moral standards for yourself that you may or may not project on other creatures hinges on your own capacity to do so. The Christian god can do whatever the heck it wants provided it has the power to do so, and I don't particularly care what it does either way.

I don't think I explained what Im curious about very well. It isn't the fact that God could do this, I have to place nor desire to question any religion. The thing that bothers me, and that I'd like to understand.

Do people that beleive in God and the after life believe that this is what happens; if so do they disagree with me and see it as just, if so why. I'm also aware that some do not, and cant understand how they accept it

 

[Pegg]

Are you saying the Bible teaches that there is no heaven and hell as we will not be concious when we die?

Yes, thats what the bible teaches.

The opposite to life (consciousness) is death (unconsciousness)

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts [“thoughts,” KJ, 145:4 in Dy; “all his thinking,” NE; “plans,” RS, NAB] do perish.”

The bible teaches that death is a condition like 'sleep'
The account of the death of Lazarus clearly states this:
John 11:11-14: “‘Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep.’ .*.*. Jesus said to them outspokenly: ‘Lazarus has died.’”

Please explain this

The resurrection is a bible teaching mostly not touched on by the churches because it raises too many questions and completely contradicts their teachings of heaven and hell.

The resurrection is a 'bringing back to life' God has the power to create a living person, and he has the ability to bring back to life a person who has died. There are many examples in the bible of resurrections occuring. Jesus resurrected Lazarus to prove that the resurrection is a sure hope.

Mankind were created for the earth, we were not created to live in heaven or anywhere else....we were created as physical beings who were supposed to live forever on earth as part of Gods physical creation. But sin (disobedience) brought death into the human existence. God will not permit death to continue....he has purposed to bring all the dead back to life and that is what that scripture above indicates...."there is going to be a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous"

Acts 24:15*and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous

 

[DistinctReason]

Yes, thats what the bible teaches.

The opposite to life (consciousness) is death (unconsciousness)

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts [“thoughts,” KJ, 145:4 in Dy; “all his thinking,” NE; “plans,” RS, NAB] do perish.”

The bible teaches that death is a condition like 'sleep'
The account of the death of Lazarus clearly states this:
John 11:11-14: “‘Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep.’ .*.*. Jesus said to them outspokenly: ‘Lazarus has died.’”




The resurrection is a bible teaching mostly not touched on by the churches because it raises too many questions and completely contradicts their teachings of heaven and hell.

The resurrection is a 'bringing back to life' God has the power to create a living person, and he has the ability to bring back to life a person who has died. There are many examples in the bible of resurrections occuring. Jesus resurrected Lazarus to prove that the resurrection is a sure hope.

Mankind were created for the earth, we were not created to live in heaven or anywhere else....we were created as physical beings who were supposed to live forever on earth as part of Gods physical creation. But sin (disobedience) brought death into the human existence. God will not permit death to continue....he has purposed to bring all the dead back to life and that is what that scripture above indicates...."there is going to be a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous"

Acts 24:15*and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous

Interesting, I have absolutely no knowledge about your religion, I think I may have been very naive when I contemplated this thought and made the assumptions that Heaven and Hell, or even just the after life was the most important thing to all relgions, so I simply assumed it was a necessary factor.

That definately is a concept my mind can grasp. How do you view it? Do you fear it?

 

[Pegg]

Interesting, I have absolutely no knowledge about your religion, I think I may have been very naive when I contemplated this thought and made the assumptions that Heaven and Hell, or even just the after life was the most important thing to all relgions, so I simply assumed it was a necessary factor.

That definately is a concept my mind can grasp. How do you view it? Do you fear it?

We certainly have no reason to fear death. Do you fear going to sleep at night? No.

Death is like being asleep.....thats why the common phrase is 'Rest In Peace' on tomb stones....or 'peacefully at rest' or something similar.


I love having the hope of the resurrection. To know that death will not hold us indefinitely is comforting. And to know that eventually death will be completely destroyed is even more wonderful to consider:

1Corinthians 15:25*For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26*As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing


Eventually mankind will be free of death, suffering and sorrow.....and those who have already died will live again and they will under Gods direct care

Revelation 21:3*With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4*And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”



What could be better then that?



btw, Jehovahs Witnesses are a Christian religion. We just dont worship Jesus or claim he is God. We worship the God of the bible who is Yahweh or Jehovah in english.

 

[SteveGrayFTW]

Looking forward to getting opinions on this from religious minds and also people who do not follow a religion.

I am NOT Religious..

The one thing I cannot accept about all religions is the after life. You get in or you don't. Not including purgatory.

I will explain this using Christianity.
Your after life all depends on the life you live now, whether your 'good or bad'
One of the first questions I asked a Christian was 'How are people bad if God made us that way, why didnt he make us all good' Which I was given the usual speach about the gift of Free Will yadaa yadaa. And for a while I simply accepted that.
But now what I dont understand is, yes we have free will, the ability to make good and bad choices, but do we really? To the extent that we can be judged by them? Eternally?

No body is born evil. The beaten grow up to beat there own and I am aware of the constant moral debate about whether you can blame a person for beating their child when they were beaten their whole life. My opinion on this matter is yes they are still to blame, plenty of people brake out of that cycle. Its 2013 with the amount of deadbeat parents there are nar days simply 'I had a bad upbringing' isnt enough of an excuse anymore. But thats this life, on earth.

Now before I make my actual point I have to explain a few points that I view as facts

God is not evil
God loves his creations
God understands his creations

So, if you agree with those points how can you accept that God would damn a man to hell forEVER for the bad deeds he committed in his life when no child is born evil, so it must be things that have effected him in this life to cause him to act that way? A normal fully functioning human being does not enjoy doing bad things, so they do not do them, if they do, they either do not intend to or do not know what they are doing is bad. If they do not what they are doing they are not a fully functioning human being so how can they be blamed? Its not there fault!

There are true stories of very young children doing very evil things, which could dispute the fact that no child is born evil, but thats not the point im making, even if a child is born and is 'evil' that backs my point that they cannot be blamed. This includes people with mental health issues

When I asked a Christian about this once they said it is the devil that makes people do bad things; I replied that by claiming that they are admitting it is not the humans fault; They said yes it is because the person should of made the right decision, but in eyes they still cannot really be blamed because there is a reason they made this decision, that God as our creator should be able to understand.
The only dispute to this argument I can think of is if the devil actually appeared to someone of average intelligence and correct mental state, told them to do something, and they did it, knowing that the deed was evil. Then I could accept it.

To summorize; There are many reasons people do bad things, the only true difference is whether the person is sane or not. If you a concious of doing something bad you should be punished for it. But there is a thick line between punishment and torture. You punish someone to teach them a lesson. Heaven and hell are eternal, you cant vist one and pop to the other. So hell is not a punishment it is torture. And i do not believe that a God who understands his creations would torture them for making wrong decisions that really, they did not choose to make. A human being does not get to choose the person they become, of course they can choose how they act, but not there actual self. You can have urges to kill and keep them locked away, because you are strong enough too. Can we really torture people for not being strong enough? Yes. Can God? Maybe, but is doing that not contradicting the reason hes doing it?


Also, you could dispute this by saying God doesnt understand us enough to be able to accept the reasons we do bad deeds, if this is true, how does he have the right to judge us for them?

I'm not a Christian, but not all of them believe in eternal damnation. Christian Universalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[McBell]

Are you saying the Bible teaches that there is no heaven and hell as we will not be concious when we die?

Yes, that is what she is saying.
However, she is leaving out the fact that what she is claiming the Bible teaches is merely one of many interpretations of the Bible.

 

[Pegg]

Yes, that is what she is saying.
However, she is leaving out the fact that what she is claiming the Bible teaches is merely one of many interpretations of the Bible.

true, which logically means that not all interpretations are correct.

and its especially true that each person should compare the interpretation with the bible and use their powers of reason to determine which is more in harmony with what the bible actually states.

 

[McBell]

true, which logically means that not all interpretations are correct.

Or that any of them are...

and its especially true that each person should compare the interpretation with the bible and use their powers of reason to determine which is more in harmony with what the bible actually states.

First they need to determine which version (if any) of the Bible is the "correct" one.