What gives your 'God' the right to damn? What condones burning for eternity?

[nazz]

Interesting.
You never heard it but know that it come mostly from cultural Christians?
Neat trick...


You do realize that I am speaking about what some members are actually preaching, right?
Your "defense" of "no religion teaches that" seems to be more a deflective strawman than an honest reply.

I've been a student of religion since before puberty. I've studied all the major ones and quite a few of the minor ones as well. I think I know what I am talking about.

 

[McBell]

I've been a student of religion since before puberty. I've studied all the major ones and quite a few of the minor ones as well. I think I know what I am talking about.

You may very well know what you are talking about, however, it is not the same thing I am talking about.

You keep going on and on about what the religions are supposed to be preaching whilst I am telling you what they actually are preaching.

And no, i did not miss the fact you did not address any of thepoints.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Does anyone except hellfire and brimstone fundamentalists really think that hell is a place of fiery torture? I think the concept is more like a state of spiritual deadness.

 

[nazz]

Does anyone except hellfire and brimstone fundamentalists really think that hell is a place of fiery torture? I think the concept is more like a state of spiritual deadness.

People interpret in many ways. But what did the original inventors of the concept have in mind? I think they probably intended it be taken literally. They lived in a time when biology was not properly understood so wouldn't know that one needs physical nerve endings to feel pain.

Off topic but I see you've changed your religious affiliation for the second time. What's up?

 

[InformedIgnorance]

They also lived at a time when the newly formed movement (christianity) was under significant persecution, so it is not at all surprising that they considered membership of that movement (as defined by belief in Jesus etc) to be more important than almost anything thus the emphasis they believed would be placed on belief within eternal judgement, because it was for that they were were suffering hardship while they lived.

As for the nature of the judgement... well we are talking about an 'afterlife' a state which comes after this temporary life.... it would not be 'solved' by positing a temporary outcome, so it makes sense they would claim an eternal one (else there would be an after-afterlife etc) and because the evaluation criteria (belief) easily conforms to group membership, it is easily seen as Us vs Them, in those conditions it is obvious that 'Us' are going to be considered worthy of a pleasant experience, while 'Them' considered unworthy of a pleasant experience - instead an unpleasant one.

 

[nazz]

They also lived at a time when the newly formed movement (christianity) was under significant persecution, so it is not at all surprising that they considered membership of that movement (as defined by belief in Jesus etc) to be more important than almost anything thus the emphasis they believed would be placed on belief within eternal judgement, because it was for that they were were suffering hardship while they lived.

As for the nature of the judgement... well we are talking about an 'afterlife' a state which comes after this temporary life.... it would not be 'solved' by positing a temporary outcome, so it makes sense they would claim an eternal one (else there would be an after-afterlife etc) and because the evaluation criteria (belief) easily conforms to group membership, it is easily seen as Us vs Them, in those conditions it is obvious that 'Us' are going to be considered worthy of a pleasant experience, while 'Them' considered unworthy of a pleasant experience - instead an unpleasant one.

It's also important to note that Christians did not invent the concept of hell. It already existed in Pharisaic Judaism and was called Gehenna. The Jews may have borrowed the idea from the Zoroastrians when they were in exile in Babylon.

But the Jewish conception differed significantly from the doctrine as developed over time by Christians. For one thing one got put there primarily for one's bad deeds and not what one believed or didn't. And one could get out too as it was more of a Purgatory like place. Jesus seemed to uphold that conception.

 

[Me Myself]

Rights are a human invention.

In any case, if the abrahamic christian god were to allow eternal torture without any compassion, Shiva wont

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

People interpret in many ways. But what did the original inventors of the concept have in mind? I think they probably intended it be taken literally. They lived in a time when biology was not properly understood so wouldn't know that one needs physical nerve endings to feel pain.

I don't know. But concepts evolve and are refined.

Off topic but I see you've changed your religious affiliation for the second time. What's up?

I just decided to go back to Catholicism, is all. This is what always happens with me, anyway.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

It's also important to note that Christians did not invent the concept of hell. It already existed in Pharisaic Judaism and was called Gehenna. The Jews may have borrowed the idea from the Zoroastrians when they were in exile in Babylon.

But the Jewish conception differed significantly from the doctrine as developed over time by Christians. For one thing one got put there primarily for one's bad deeds and not what one believed or didn't. And one could get out too as it was more of a Purgatory like place. Jesus seemed to uphold that conception.

Gehenna is not really synonymous with hell; but the same would apply to the jewish people at various times during their history (which is likely when this teaching originated)

 

[nazz]

Gehenna is not really synonymous with hell

Right. That's what I said. But it is the basis for the Christian concept of hell.

 

[Mycroft]

And yet so many Christians seem to think that if they are not good, they do not get into Heaven.
Of course, there are also those who believe that once saved, they cannot lose their place in Heaven.

Perhaps you should get out more?

It begs the question: are christians capable of truly selfless acts.

To me a selfless act is doing something you really doing want to do, but doing it anyway for the benefit of someone else without reward.

christians, however, always do what they do with the end goal of going to heaven, meaning nothing they do could be truly selfless.

 

[McBell]

It begs the question: are christians capable of truly selfless acts.

To me a selfless act is doing something you really doing want to do, but doing it anyway for the benefit of someone else without reward.

christians, however, always do what they do with the end goal of going to heaven, meaning nothing they do could be truly selfless.

I don't know.
Seems there was a thread about it that took selfishness to the level of every thing everyone does is selfish.
So it seems to me that if one takes such a view on selfishness then adding the word Christian does not change anything.

 

[nazz]

It begs the question: are christians capable of truly selfless acts.

To me a selfless act is doing something you really doing want to do, but doing it anyway for the benefit of someone else without reward.

christians, however, always do what they do with the end goal of going to heaven, meaning nothing they do could be truly selfless.

Say what? Christians, if they know anything about the teaching of the Christian religion, know their deeds do not get them into heaven. If anything they might do good to please God whom they love. Myself, a Christian, I just do what is good because I know it is the right thing to do.

 

[Thana]

It begs the question: are christians capable of truly selfless acts.

To me a selfless act is doing something you really doing want to do, but doing it anyway for the benefit of someone else without reward.

christians, however, always do what they do with the end goal of going to heaven, meaning nothing they do could be truly selfless.

There is no such thing as a truly selfless act.
If you give to poor, And you get a good feeling from doing it. Then it's still not selfless.
If you give to the poor because you are paying for your misdeeds, Then it's not selfless.
Everything we do, Everything, Is selfish.
It can't be helped, No matter what we do, We always get something out of it.

Deeds do not get you into heaven. We go to heaven only by the grace of God.
We cannot do anything to get into heaven.

 

[nazz]

Deeds do not get you into heaven. We go to heaven only by the grace of God. We cannot do anything to get into heaven.

Please explain this to Mestemia He claims Christians preach one must do good deeds to get into heaven.

 

[Thana]

Please explain this to Mestemia He claims Christians preach one must do good deeds to get into heaven.

I'm not surprised.
Athiests and Agnostics tend to believe they know religion better than religious people.

 

[McBell]

Please explain this to Mestemia He claims Christians preach one must do good deeds to get into heaven.

You should go back and reread my posts for comprehension.
I said SOME Christians preach that faith alone will not get you into heaven that you must also not do bad things.

Of course, if you were to stop cherry picking my posts...

 

[nazz]

You should go back and reread my posts for comprehension.
I said SOME Christians preach that faith alone will not get you into heaven that you must also not do bad things.

Of course, if you were to stop cherry picking my posts...

I'm not. Here is what you originally said:

I will explain this using Christianity.
Your after life all depends on the life you live now, whether your 'good or bad'

Intimating this was the standard teaching of Christianity. When I protested that was not what the religion teaches you responded with:

Really?
Cause it sure is what a lot of Christians preach.

And yet so many Christians seem to think that if they are not good, they do not get into Heaven.

Hardly "some"

 

[McBell]

I'm not. Here is what you originally said:

I will explain this using Christianity.
Your after life all depends on the life you live now, whether your 'good or bad'

Intimating this was the standard teaching of Christianity. When I protested that was not what the religion teaches you responded with:

Really?
Cause it sure is what a lot of Christians preach.

And yet so many Christians seem to think that if they are not good, they do not get into Heaven.

Hardly "some"

I was not the one who said:

I will explain this using Christianity.
Your after life all depends on the life you live now, whether your 'good or bad'

 

[McBell]

I'm not surprised.
Athiests and Agnostics tend to believe they know religion better than religious people.

Except that I am not making any claims as to what "True" Christianity teaches.
I was merely pointing out the fact that there are a lot of Christians (I guess according to some **cough**nazz**cough* they are "false" Christians) who do preach that faith without works is dead.