What gives your 'God' the right to damn? What condones burning for eternity?

[Shiranui117]

The late Pope Shenouda III of the Coptic Orthodox Church said it best: "In heaven, God will not ask us why we sinned; He will ask us why we didn’t repent." We won't be judged by how many sins we committed, because every single one of us has sinned without number. Rather, we will be judged based on the repentance that we made, and on the efforts we made to turn away from sin, and to love God and our neighbor.

Simply put, those who burn for eternity will burn because they refused to embrace the love of God and their neighbor, and because they refused to love in return. So when they are confronted with the fire of God's love and presence, this love and presence of God will be unending torture to them. But for those who love God, this same fire will be unending joy.

 

[McBell]

The late Pope Shenouda III of the Coptic Orthodox Church said it best: "In heaven, God will not ask us why we sinned; He will ask us why we didn’t repent." We won't be judged by how many sins we committed, because every single one of us has sinned without number. Rather, we will be judged based on the repentance that we made, and on the efforts we made to turn away from sin, and to love God and our neighbor.

Simply put, those who burn for eternity will burn because they refused to embrace the love of God and their neighbor, and because they refused to love in return. So when they are confronted with the fire of God's love and presence, this love and presence of God will be unending torture to them. But for those who love God, this same fire will be unending joy.

A nice little sermon, don't get me wrong...
But what does it have to do with the question:

"What gives your god the right to condemn?"​

 

[Shiranui117]

A nice little sermon, don't get me wrong...
But what does it have to do with the question:

"What gives your god the right to condemn?"​

What gives God the right to condemn? The fact that we willingly chose condemnation for ourselves, after God gave us every opportunity to change our minds and embrace love instead of hatred. God is just letting us have it our way. We knowingly choose Hell. We knowingly choose to reject love and to reject God. God's right to condemn is, in reality, our right to reject Him. Condemnation isn't God throwing people kicking and screaming into Hell. Condemnation is NOT God shutting out those who have chosen to repent and beg Him for mercy. Condemnation is God saying, "Alright, you choose to hate Me, you choose to hate your fellow man? Fine, live in your hatred. Be surrounded in your own little island of hatred amidst the unquenchable sea of my love. You choose to suffer, I'll let you suffer. But don't come crying to me about it later; I gave you every chance beforehand to change your mind. But you didn't. So now, live with the choice that you have made over and over again."

 

[Astravalon]

What gives God the right to condemn? The fact that we willingly chose condemnation for ourselves, after God gave us every opportunity to change our minds and embrace love instead of hatred. God is just letting us have it our way. We knowingly choose Hell. We knowingly choose to reject love and to reject God. God's right to condemn is, in reality, our right to reject Him. Condemnation isn't God throwing people kicking and screaming into Hell. Condemnation is NOT God shutting out those who have chosen to repent and beg Him for mercy. Condemnation is God saying, "Alright, you choose to hate Me, you choose to hate your fellow man? Fine, live in your hatred. Be surrounded in your own little island of hatred amidst the unquenchable sea of my love. You choose to suffer, I'll let you suffer. But don't come crying to me about it later; I gave you every chance beforehand to change your mind. But you didn't. So now, live with the choice that you have made over and over again."

Assuming such a scenario were true, it's highly doubtful that any human will be able
to remain miserable for all eternity in God's presence. This is God we're talking
about, after all.


-

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Assuming such a scenario were true, it's highly doubtful that any human will be able
to remain miserable for all eternity in God's presence. This is God we're talking
about, after all.


-

Well, Revelation does say that death and hell will be destroyed in the end. We can definitely hold the hope that all souls will be saved eventually.

 

[Shiranui117]

Assuming such a scenario were true, it's highly doubtful that any human will be able
to remain miserable for all eternity in God's presence. This is God we're talking
about, after all.

Very, very true. That's why so many Orthodox and Catholics hope that, in the end, all will be saved--even if some people will need a reeeeaaalllllly long Purgatory time, to borrow Roman Catholic terminology.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Very, very true. That's why so many Orthodox and Catholics hope that, in the end, all will be saved--even if some people will need a reeeeaaalllllly long Purgatory time, to borrow Roman Catholic terminology.

Precisely.

 

[nazz]

What gives God the right to condemn? The fact that we willingly chose condemnation for ourselves, after God gave us every opportunity to change our minds and embrace love instead of hatred. God is just letting us have it our way. We knowingly choose Hell. We knowingly choose to reject love and to reject God. God's right to condemn is, in reality, our right to reject Him. Condemnation isn't God throwing people kicking and screaming into Hell. Condemnation is NOT God shutting out those who have chosen to repent and beg Him for mercy. Condemnation is God saying, "Alright, you choose to hate Me, you choose to hate your fellow man? Fine, live in your hatred. Be surrounded in your own little island of hatred amidst the unquenchable sea of my love. You choose to suffer, I'll let you suffer. But don't come crying to me about it later; I gave you every chance beforehand to change your mind. But you didn't. So now, live with the choice that you have made over and over again."

still not a nice god. certainly not an all loving one

 

[McBell]

What gives God the right to condemn? The fact that we willingly chose condemnation for ourselves, after God gave us every opportunity to change our minds and embrace love instead of hatred. God is just letting us have it our way. We knowingly choose Hell. We knowingly choose to reject love and to reject God. God's right to condemn is, in reality, our right to reject Him. Condemnation isn't God throwing people kicking and screaming into Hell. Condemnation is NOT God shutting out those who have chosen to repent and beg Him for mercy. Condemnation is God saying, "Alright, you choose to hate Me, you choose to hate your fellow man? Fine, live in your hatred. Be surrounded in your own little island of hatred amidst the unquenchable sea of my love. You choose to suffer, I'll let you suffer. But don't come crying to me about it later; I gave you every chance beforehand to change your mind. But you didn't. So now, live with the choice that you have made over and over again."

It is interesting that you started with the question like you were going to answer it, but then proceeded to not answer it...

Instead you present a sermon that seems to be from someone suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.

Wow.
Is this perhaps to personal a subject for you?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

still not a nice god. certainly not an all loving one

The point is that hell is a spiritual state you go into by choosing hatred instead of love. But we may hope that hell is empty or that, if anyone is there, they may eventually achieve salvation. I would think that hell is a pretty hard state to consciously fall into. Your heart would have to be full of evil.

 

[Shiranui117]

It is interesting that you started with the question like you were going to answer it, but then proceeded to not answer it...

Instead you present a sermon that seems to be from someone suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.

Wow.
Is this perhaps to personal a subject for you?

I answered it straight-on, as far as I can tell. Perhaps you just don't like or understand the answer I gave, because we have two different paradigms about condemnation?

 

[McBell]

I answered it straight-on, as far as I can tell. Perhaps you just don't like or understand the answer I gave, because we have two different paradigms about condemnation?

So you are saying that because he issued an ultimatum, he has the right to condemn?

Fair enough.

Though I do not see it as anything other than you claiming might makes right.

 

[Shiranui117]

So you are saying that because he issued an ultimatum, he has the right to condemn?

Fair enough.

Though I do not see it as anything other than you claiming might makes right.

You mean the "ultimatum" to either love others, or to hate them?

Have you ever lived in hatred, or even had a brief spell where you were filled with hate? Not a very happy feeling, is it? Likewise, have you ever been in love, or felt lovingkindness? That felt wonderful, did it not? All Hell is, is a manifestation of the negativity we experience when we fill ourselves with hatred. And all Heaven is, is a manifestation of the positive feeling we experience when we choose to become filled with love.

In short, God isn't a courtroom judge who's going to slam us with punishments because we choose not to love Him. There's no "might makes right" about it. We either choose to accept the love given to us and experience Heaven, or to reject love, instead choosing to hate and experience Hell.

 

[nazz]

The point is that hell is a spiritual state you go into by choosing hatred instead of love. But we may hope that hell is empty or that, if anyone is there, they may eventually achieve salvation. I would think that hell is a pretty hard state to consciously fall into. Your heart would have to be full of evil.

My idea if hell is different but my point was that the way the other poster described God's attitude was not nice or loving. Basically saying you made your (eternal) bed now lie in it. I believe God is always trying to save us no matter what and would never turn us away.

 

[nazz]

You mean the "ultimatum" to either love others, or to hate them?

This thinking is very black and white. Who among us truly acts loving toward all others? Who among us truly acts hateful to all?

 

[McBell]

You mean the "ultimatum" to either love others, or to hate them?

Have you ever lived in hatred, or even had a brief spell where you were filled with hate? Not a very happy feeling, is it? Likewise, have you ever been in love, or felt lovingkindness? That felt wonderful, did it not? All Hell is, is a manifestation of the negativity we experience when we fill ourselves with hatred. And all Heaven is, is a manifestation of the positive feeling we experience when we choose to become filled with love.

In short, God isn't a courtroom judge who's going to slam us with punishments because we choose not to love Him. There's no "might makes right" about it. We either choose to accept the love given to us and experience Heaven, or to reject love, instead choosing to hate and experience Hell.

Which is nothing more than an ultimatum.
Now since your "argument" is that since god issued the ultimatum, he has the right to enforce it.
Which is nothing more than might makes right.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

My idea if hell is different but my point was that the way the other poster described God's attitude was not nice or loving. Basically saying you made your (eternal) bed now lie in it. I believe God is always trying to save us no matter what and would never turn us away.

Oh, I see. Well, I agree with you. That's why I hope that hell is empty or will become empty. It is a state of the spirit that continues after death but I don't think that after a damned person dies that there's no hope for them. There's always hope. God's grace is far greater than the powers of hell.

"[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, and lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy."[/FONT]

 

[Shiranui117]

Which is nothing more than an ultimatum.
Now since your "argument" is that since god issued the ultimatum, he has the right to enforce it.
Which is nothing more than might makes right.

What about it is an ultimatum? Put your hot hand on a stove, and you get burned. It's a set of natural consequences. B happens as a direct result of A. I do not do B to you because you did A--rather, B happens to you solely based on the fact that you did A. If you turn off the light, the room becomes dark. I don't make the room dark because you flipped the switch. Rather, the room becomes dark based entirely on the fact that you flipped the switch.

You're the one trying to force my argument into saying that God makes an ultimatum. My argument has nothing to do with issuing ultimatums. Yours does. The sooner you understand this, the sooner you'll understand my argument. Don't try to force my words into a Western Christian (specifically Protestant) mindset.

 

[Shiranui117]

This thinking is very black and white. Who among us truly acts loving toward all others? Who among us truly acts hateful to all?

True. But the better question is, how many of us fail to love everyone, and regret it? If we at least want to love everyone, and try to, we will eventually experience Heaven.

My idea if hell is different but my point was that the way the other poster described God's attitude was not nice or loving. Basically saying you made your (eternal) bed now lie in it. I believe God is always trying to save us no matter what and would never turn us away.

Yes, God doesn't want anyone to be damned, and wants all to be saved. However, if someone consistently chooses for all eternity to reject God, what can He do? He can't (or won't) force us to love Him. It's not like He casts us off without a care. But if someone chooses over and over to reject Him, then there's nothing God can do aside from let them have their way, since salvation can never be forced on those who don't want it. I have a hard time believing that people would actively want to persist forever in Hell, myself--but I can't rule out the theoretical possibility that there are some people who will want to be in Hell forever.

 

[McBell]

What about it is an ultimatum? Put your hot hand on a stove, and you get burned. It's a set of natural consequences. B happens as a direct result of A. I do not do B to you because you did A--rather, B happens to you solely based on the fact that you did A. If you turn off the light, the room becomes dark. I don't make the room dark because you flipped the switch. Rather, the room becomes dark based entirely on the fact that you flipped the switch.

You're the one trying to force my argument into saying that God makes an ultimatum. My argument has nothing to do with issuing ultimatums. Yours does. The sooner you understand this, the sooner you'll understand my argument. Don't try to force my words into a Western Christian (specifically Protestant) mindset.

Wait, your claim is that punishment for not loving the ultimatum maker is natural consequences?