What godless means

[Wandering Monk]

I need to define what godless means first :
godless means to believe in nothing. To believe life is meaningless. That this life is just pleasure, instinct, and that the fittest shall prevail.
Many atheists believe in something, which can be wisdom, art, creativity, fairness, cooperation, knowledge, justice, peace.
They pursue these things, and their life is filled with meaning.

But godlessness is the rejection of all the positive values theists associate with deities. And trust me, there are theists who are godless, because they think religion is just a cultural figment.

So godless doesn't mean necessarily atheist.

Italy is an unruly society. As our tour guide said when we were in Rome trying to navigate the chaotic traffic circle by the Victor Emanuel monument: Italians are ungovernable.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Italy has had something like 69 governments since WWII. That's what I call unruly.

 

[Estro Felino]

Italy is an unruly society. As our tour guide said when we were in Rome trying to navigate the chaotic traffic circle by the Victor Emanuel monument: Italians are ungovernable.

They make their life complicated.
Why the traffic? With so many cheap means of transportation? Tram, subway, bus, coach, cabs?
Because people won't use them and because they take the car even if their office is 500 meters away.
I can't change them.

 

[Estro Felino]

Italy has had something like 69 governments since WWII. That's what I call unruly.

...and no war since WW2.
Do you prefer the long 23 years of Mussolini government?

 

[YmirGF]

Italy has had something like 69 governments since WWII. That's what I call unruly.

Oddly, this sounds like a functioning democracy to me. Are you not a fan of elections?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I need to define what godless means first :
godless means to believe in nothing. To believe life is meaningless. That this life is just pleasure, instinct, and that the fittest shall prevail.
Many atheists believe in something, which can be wisdom, art, creativity, fairness, cooperation, knowledge, justice, peace.
They pursue these things, and their life is filled with meaning.

But godlessness is the rejection of all the positive values theists associate with deities. And trust me, there are theists who are godless, because they think religion is just a cultural figment.

So godless doesn't mean necessarily atheist.

First off, the video is silly. You have crime in societies overloaded with God, and you have religious people only too happy to hate others for being different. Those things are not reduced when the numbers of believers goes up -- in fact, sometimes it's quite the reverse, as a look at crime in the US red states versus blue ones. The Two-Decade Red State Murder Problem – Third Way

• The murder rate in the 25 states that voted for Donald Trump has exceeded the murder rate in the 25 states that voted for Joe Biden in every year from 2000 to 2020.
• Over this 21-year span, this Red State murder gap has steadily widened from a low of 9% more per capita red state murders in 2003 and 2004 to 44% more per capita red state murders in 2019, before settling back to 43% in 2020.
• Altogether, the per capita Red State murder rate was 23% higher than the Blue State murder rate when all 21 years were combined.

You can go online and find thousands of paintings of human beings burning at the stake -- for the crime of believing their own way, rather than the orthodox fashion decreed by the Church.

Not long ago, before they started banning such things, you could find videos online of women being shot to death at half-time during soccer games in Afghanistan (lots of God there, boy-oh-boy!), or of beheadings and brutal murder of all kinds by Muslims, killing Christians or their own Muslim brethren for believing "incorrectly."

John Calvin, a "god-filled" man if ever there was one, burned Michael Servetus, also Christian, but with the "wrong view the Trinity". There are many, many more such episodes throughout the history of "godly" Christianity.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

...and no war since WW2.
Do you prefer the long 23 years of Mussolini government?

In 1933, fascist rallies typically began with a morning mass celebrated by a priest, and churches and cathedrals were important props in the pageantry. Kertzer says Pope Pius XI cooperated closely with Mussolini for more than a decade, lending his regime organizational strength and moral legitimacy. It was a particularly curious alliance he notes, since Mussolini himself was a committed anti-cleric. But both sides benefited from the bargain. The Pope and Mussolini, David Kertzer

 

[Estro Felino]

In 1933, fascist rallies typically began with a morning mass celebrated by a priest, and churches and cathedrals were important props in the pageantry. Kertzer says Pope Pius XI cooperated closely with Mussolini for more than a decade, lending his regime organizational strength and moral legitimacy. It was a particularly curious alliance he notes, since Mussolini himself was a committed anti-cleric. But both sides benefited from the bargain. The Pope and Mussolini, David Kertzer

He was an atheist.

That's the problem.
I as a theist acknowledge that there are bad people and good people within my category.

I expect atheists to acknowledge there are good people and bad people within their category, as well.
Because these replies are making me understand that atheists believe all atheists are saints and perfect.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

He was an atheist.

That's the problem.
I as a theist acknowledge that there are bad people and good people within my category.

I expect atheists to acknowledge there are good people and bad people within their category, as well.
Because these replies are making me understand that atheists believe all atheists are saints and perfect.

And where did I ever say such a thing? I never have. But the whole premise of this thread is that somehow the world would be better and safer if more people believed in God -- and I think I have demonstrated that is not a particularly valid supposition.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

And where did I ever say such a thing? I never have. But the whole premise of this thread is that somehow the world would be better and safer if more people believed in God -- and I think I have demonstrated that is not a particularly valid supposition.

Look, people commit crimes and acts of hatred for their own reasons -- it doesn't matter in the least whether they believe in gods or not. However, I think history shows us that fundamentalist and evangelical believers have more reasons to hate than non-believers, those reasons being the very existence of people who believe otherwise, thus threatening their world-view.

 

[Estro Felino]

And where did I ever say such a thing? I never have. But the whole premise of this thread is that somehow the world would be better and safer if more people believed in God -- and I think I have demonstrated that is not a particularly valid supposition.

Not quite, since the OP itself points out how atheists can be morally better than theists themselves.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Not quite, since the OP itself points out how atheists can be morally better than theists themselves.

Once again, I think we have to resist trying to lump together morals with religious belief or non-belief. I do not think they are well connected. However, as I have suggested, zealotry of belief (which an atheist is very unlikely to have) can lead to actions that are inimical to the well-being of those who don't share those beliefs.

 

[Revoltingest]

If I had meant atheists, I would have said "an atheistic society".

If you'd meant immoral, you'd have said "immoral".
"Godless" has very a different denotation.

It seems that many religious folk believe that morality
comes only from (fear of) their god. And see lack thereof
as therefore "godless". This naive but pervasive view is
the source of your error (IMO).

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

He was an atheist.

That's the problem.
I as a theist acknowledge that there are bad people and good people within my category.

I expect atheists to acknowledge there are good people and bad people within their category, as well.
Because these replies are making me understand that atheists believe all atheists are saints and perfect.

I don't think that all atheists are perfect, but I do think that they face a lot of prejudice and discrimination from the majority groups in many societies. Atheists are often stereotyped as immoral, arrogant, or rebellious, and they may face shunning, legal restrictions, or even violence for their lack of belief in God. I believe that everyone should have the right to choose their own worldview and live according to their own conscience, without being judged or persecuted by others. Atheism is not a flawed position, but a valid and reasonable one.

 

[ChristineM]

I don't think that all atheists are perfect, but I do think that they face a lot of prejudice and discrimination from the majority groups in many societies. Atheists are often stereotyped as immoral, arrogant, or rebellious, and they may face shunning, legal restrictions, or even violence for their lack of belief in God. I believe that everyone should have the right to choose their own worldview and live according to their own conscience, without being judged or persecuted by others. Atheism is not a flawed position, but a valid and reasonable one.

I just love this

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

He was an atheist.

That's the problem.
I as a theist acknowledge that there are bad people and good people within my category.

I expect atheists to acknowledge there are good people and bad people within their category, as well.
Because these replies are making me understand that atheists believe all atheists are saints and perfect.

(Continued....)

As a non-theist, I sometimes feel ashamed of the actions and words of some of my fellows. For example, and on the other hand, there are atheists who mock and insult religious people, who vandalize places of worship, who spread hate and intolerance, and who try to impose their views on others. However, I also know that these atheists do not represent all atheists. There are many good atheists who are kind, compassionate, ethical, and open-minded. Therefore, I think it is important to be careful not to criticize one's own group so broadly that it overgeneralizes and applies to everyone or most.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Oddly, this sounds like a functioning democracy to me. Are you not a fan of elections?

Sounds more like a nation that doesn't know what they want. I am a fan of election BTW>

 

[YmirGF]

Sounds more like a nation that doesn't know what they want. I am a fan of election BTW>

It's not like there is much inspirational leadership on the world stage to effectively guide them.

 

[Estro Felino]

If you'd meant immoral, you'd have said "immoral".
"Godless" has very a different denotation.

It seems that many religious folk believe that morality
comes only from (fear of) their god. And see lack thereof
as therefore "godless". This naive but pervasive view is
the source of your error (IMO).

For example:
I am totally sure you believe the Manhattan Project was something holy and that Oppenheimer was a hero and a saint.
On the contrary I think he was a godless person. He even admits it: I am become death.

Now that movie wants to celebrate him.

Can't you see we have two different visions of life and death?

 

[Estro Felino]

Once again, I think we have to resist trying to lump together morals with religious belief or non-belief. I do not think they are well connected. However, as I have suggested, zealotry of belief (which an atheist is very unlikely to have) can lead to actions that are inimical to the well-being of those who don't share those beliefs.

I think quite the opposite takes place.
That theists and atheists share so many values, like the common welfare. The well-being of everyone.