I do not know. I asked you. You have to prove that a stone will exist in absence of consciousness.
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What Happens When You Die?
- Thread starter godnotgod
- Start date
I do not know. I asked you. You have to prove that a stone will exist in absence of consciousness.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
They take you to a funeral home.
Oh. I would have to prove that if every living thing became unconscious a stone wouldn't disappear? How about just using logic, reason and common sense? If every life on the planet got unconscious the planet or maybe the rest of the universe would poof out of existence?
Son of Logic
New Member
The purpose of this post is to share some ideas and
opinions I have accumulated over the past few years
as it pertains to consciousness, transcendence and
death. This research and study has taken on a much
more personal nature over the past year, although it
has always been something that I've delved into and examined since college. While I have great skepticism about any entity resembling Biblical God, this discussion
isn't designed to be religious in nature. Rather, I want
to evaluate what realistic possibilities could exist after
our human bodies are void of life.
Let me start by stating that I believe who we are,
what we are and what we could be, lies within
consciousness itself. While alive, consciousness rest
within the perimeters of our mind. That is to say,
acting in conjunction with the wiring of the brain as to
control all aspects of bodily mechanics, while maintaining a diverse range of seemingly non
measurable products such as aspirational thought,
interpretation, morality, self examination and
projection, rationalization and formulation by
inference, etc. We know that the body can be kept alive even after
the brain becomes permanently non functional.
However, who we were ceased to exist. The
accumulation of data, experiences and memories are
lost. In this case we are simply a living shell devoid of
awareness. The question that must be asked is what happens to consciousness when the physical matter of
the mind has irreversible damage or death. Does
consciousness simply vanish and become nonexistent?
Or, does consciousness transcend the physical body
and exist independent of it? Is consciousness bound to
local matter or is it does it have universal property? Does consciousness transfer from one state to
another? These are all questions that have to be asked
and examined.
We must first look at rather consciousness is
comparable by any known means of subject that is
both concrete and abstract in it's very nature. The
answer would seem to be no. It is indeed non
relational to any other existent form and cannot be
studied to any specific degree do it it's boundless variables. Remember, we are not talking about the
neurological function and properties of the physical
brain, but the metaphysical essence of who we are
that resides within the brain. Next we must examine whether consciousness is
constrained by physical, biological or neurological
boundaries or does it exist in a dimension free of
spacial or finite limitations. Some refer to it as the
"ghost in the machine". Indeed, the conscious is
aware, knowing and present even when we sleep. If the conscious were a physical thing, then of course it
would cease to exist at some point as all physical
matter does. However, consciousness itself is not an
physical composition, but rather an abstract
illumination. I don't want this to go on and on, so I will share what
my thoughts are.
I believe that consciousness may
exist independent of the physical body. That is to say
that consciousness requires a physical brain to be
active and associative within a body, but is not reliant
on physical matter for it's existence. By what means we acquire consciousness is still a very intriguing
question. However, I think there is a very real
possibility that consciousness does indeed transcend
physical death and that it exists somewhere in a state
of universal relativity. I think that when one ask "why are we here" or "what
is the purpose of life", it may very well be the inherent
journey to seek one's conscious self, truth and
enlightenment as to the "state of pure consciousness"
that could be possible. Once our bodies die, the state of
consciousness we have achieved will continue in a transcendent state. Consider that consciousness is an
energy, an animation, a life force and that it is a
"being" all it's own. If consciousness is pure energy,
then it would seem to suggest that the pure energy
would not cease to exist, but take on new form or
state of being. I think if there is an afterlife of some sort, this may be the closest to what it could be. Of course, this is purely conjecture based on theories.
But then again, all versions of afterlife are best guess
assumptions. This version, in the scheme of what we
know to be real and verifiable, offers, IMO, a better
argument than other notions of afterlife. Of course, not
a one will know until that time comes. I figured this would offer a chance for interesting conversation if
nothing else.
_______________This was typed out rather quickly on my phone, so please forgive any typos.___WJB
opinions I have accumulated over the past few years
as it pertains to consciousness, transcendence and
death. This research and study has taken on a much
more personal nature over the past year, although it
has always been something that I've delved into and examined since college. While I have great skepticism about any entity resembling Biblical God, this discussion
isn't designed to be religious in nature. Rather, I want
to evaluate what realistic possibilities could exist after
our human bodies are void of life.
Let me start by stating that I believe who we are,
what we are and what we could be, lies within
consciousness itself. While alive, consciousness rest
within the perimeters of our mind. That is to say,
acting in conjunction with the wiring of the brain as to
control all aspects of bodily mechanics, while maintaining a diverse range of seemingly non
measurable products such as aspirational thought,
interpretation, morality, self examination and
projection, rationalization and formulation by
inference, etc. We know that the body can be kept alive even after
the brain becomes permanently non functional.
However, who we were ceased to exist. The
accumulation of data, experiences and memories are
lost. In this case we are simply a living shell devoid of
awareness. The question that must be asked is what happens to consciousness when the physical matter of
the mind has irreversible damage or death. Does
consciousness simply vanish and become nonexistent?
Or, does consciousness transcend the physical body
and exist independent of it? Is consciousness bound to
local matter or is it does it have universal property? Does consciousness transfer from one state to
another? These are all questions that have to be asked
and examined.
We must first look at rather consciousness is
comparable by any known means of subject that is
both concrete and abstract in it's very nature. The
answer would seem to be no. It is indeed non
relational to any other existent form and cannot be
studied to any specific degree do it it's boundless variables. Remember, we are not talking about the
neurological function and properties of the physical
brain, but the metaphysical essence of who we are
that resides within the brain. Next we must examine whether consciousness is
constrained by physical, biological or neurological
boundaries or does it exist in a dimension free of
spacial or finite limitations. Some refer to it as the
"ghost in the machine". Indeed, the conscious is
aware, knowing and present even when we sleep. If the conscious were a physical thing, then of course it
would cease to exist at some point as all physical
matter does. However, consciousness itself is not an
physical composition, but rather an abstract
illumination. I don't want this to go on and on, so I will share what
my thoughts are.
I believe that consciousness may
exist independent of the physical body. That is to say
that consciousness requires a physical brain to be
active and associative within a body, but is not reliant
on physical matter for it's existence. By what means we acquire consciousness is still a very intriguing
question. However, I think there is a very real
possibility that consciousness does indeed transcend
physical death and that it exists somewhere in a state
of universal relativity. I think that when one ask "why are we here" or "what
is the purpose of life", it may very well be the inherent
journey to seek one's conscious self, truth and
enlightenment as to the "state of pure consciousness"
that could be possible. Once our bodies die, the state of
consciousness we have achieved will continue in a transcendent state. Consider that consciousness is an
energy, an animation, a life force and that it is a
"being" all it's own. If consciousness is pure energy,
then it would seem to suggest that the pure energy
would not cease to exist, but take on new form or
state of being. I think if there is an afterlife of some sort, this may be the closest to what it could be. Of course, this is purely conjecture based on theories.
But then again, all versions of afterlife are best guess
assumptions. This version, in the scheme of what we
know to be real and verifiable, offers, IMO, a better
argument than other notions of afterlife. Of course, not
a one will know until that time comes. I figured this would offer a chance for interesting conversation if
nothing else.
_______________This was typed out rather quickly on my phone, so please forgive any typos.___WJB
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Son of Logic
New Member
Allow me to answer with a question if I may. If I have a stone in my front yard and the stone has been every day for as long as I have lived here, does that stone still exist if I'm rendered legally brain dead tomorrow and my conscience awareness ceases to exist? The answer is yes. The stone exist regardless of my abstract awareness of it's reality. The stone remains in existence independent of my comprehension or acknowledgement of it.
godnotgod
Thou art That
Prior to the time the word-symbol 'stone' existed, what is that to which we are referring?
You call it a 'material object', but that also is a set of word-symbols conceptually created by the mind to refer to that which is in question.
When I ask: 'What is it?', I am asking about its intrinsic nature, not what we mentally conceive it to be as a static object.
You call it a 'stone' as if it is a static object, but in reality, it is in flux, although ever so slowly. It is an energy-form in flux, just as an ocean wave is an energy-form in flux, but when we look at an ocean wave, there is no such entity that can be pinned down as such. So where is this object you call a 'stone'? Where is the thing we call 'river' that flows?
We all know that we can project visual images on a screen to represent third dimensional objects in the second dimension. Have you considered that third dimensional objects are nothing more than projections from a fourth dimension? In other words, what we call solid objects are actually being manifested, making the entire phenomenal world an illusion.
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godnotgod
Thou art That
I never said nor implied that; all I am suggesting is that instances do occur where consciousness is integral to the existence of something, in this case, an electron.
That fact has now been established by science, and if that is true, then we can allow other possibilities.
godnotgod
Thou art That
Actually, no:
“As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much:
There is no matter as such.
All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.”
― Max Planck
godnotgod
Thou art That
[youtube]5gs6pD6Iqmg[/youtube]
Reality is an illusion. An illusion created by the Mind. - YouTube
Reality is an illusion. An illusion created by the Mind. - YouTube
The (human) map is not the territory. Beyond that, the (human) map only describes the human version/experience of the territory. Just thought I'd throw that second part in. Not sure if it's relevent to the discussion.
godnotgod
Thou art That
assyrianpride
Member
He has a twisted view of death and of reality in general. Here's what really happens when we die:
The body decays.
The soul sleeps.
The spirit roams about the earth. We recognize these spirits as ghosts.
When the second coming of Jesus occurs, the body will be restored and raised from the dead, the soul awakens, and the soul and the spirit return to the body so that it can either die a second death and cease to exist in any form or so that it can begin a new life on the new earth.
The body decays.
The soul sleeps.
The spirit roams about the earth. We recognize these spirits as ghosts.
When the second coming of Jesus occurs, the body will be restored and raised from the dead, the soul awakens, and the soul and the spirit return to the body so that it can either die a second death and cease to exist in any form or so that it can begin a new life on the new earth.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
I am not suggesting the mind prevails over all.
On the contrary....my rebuttal to someone else would be....
Dismissal of previous post!....that all is mind over matter?
I do believe the mind can affect your perception to this reality.
Subjects under hypnosis seem able a great deal more than otherwise.
But that's not the point either.
Insanity?.....a possible scenario.
Dead men niether write nor speak.
They do not read or listen.
These things we leave behind as we stand into the next life.
Communication is then a mind to mnd...heart to heart.
The angelic would then be able to see the way you think and feel.
We come into this world naked...we leave the same way.
What if the way you think and feel is less than required?
What if your mindset is repulsive?
What if your words are a crime?
Speculation on my part?.....sure.
A stone is a stone whatever you call it. You just put a different name on the same object.
Sorry you aren't making any sense. I call Mount Rushmore Mount Rushmore and it doesn't matter if every conscious being in the universe dropped dead and there was no consciousness left in the universe Mount Rushmore would still be there until weather eroded it down.
Why must we assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind? Let us call the first sentence A and the second sentence E. Can you fill in B, C and D and explain the logical reasoning?
godnotgod
Thou art That
Only as a matter of convention, and to avoid using the word in question: 'stone'. But you missed my point. Prior to the word 'stone', what is it? You cannot call it a 'stone' since that word did not yet exist.
A child once asked an elder:
"Grampa, what color is that tree?" to which the elder replied: "It is the color that it is".
What you are calling a 'stone', is not a stone. 'Stone' exists only as a concept in your head. It has no real existence.
The description of something is not that which it is describing. 'Stone' is merely a word-symbol to indicate something. But, as I said, that 'something' is in flux. You are merely looking at a particular point in that flux. It does'nt exist as a static 'thing', just as an ocean wave does not actually exist. It is an action of the universe, just as everything is an action of the universe, including you.
You asked permission for a question and you asserted. How do you or how will you know that the stone exists or will exist when you have no consciousness?
Mere assertions do nothing. Do you know of any stone from before your birth.
I say that this question is not solvable since you can only attempt to solve it when you are conscious.
Btw, you should be saying conscious instead of conscience.
Claim this when you are no more conscious. (Or at least claim it while you are deep asleep. Or claim it in your dream).
Thief
Rogue Theologian
And I claim we shall meet again....as we dream.