What Happens When You Die?

[MadJW]

Funny that "death" means "living in another form" in most religions...even Churchianity!

 

[godnotgod]

Just as presence of light ensures that there will be darkness, the feeling of existence has the inbuilt tendency to divide the whole into a subject and an object.

This is beautifully described in Veda, Satapatha Brahmana, and in Brihadaraynaka Upanishad. The story is of brahmA, the creator -- not Brahman the absolute but an aspect of it -- who pursues his own light (his own daughter as per scripture) forgetting that the light is of the Self. Manifold shadows are created thus.
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My point is. The Word is "I Am", which is one yet is many. Successful meditation means merging the ego self in this universal "I AM". Ego cannot have any role more than this. Some Buddhists deride this, forgetting that Buddha for them is the "I Am". Just as Krishna is for many Hindus. Reaching the absolute, param shiva for me, is through the the Word.

I hope that I am clear.

Understood, but the part I want to focus on is what exactly is involved in the Absolute (Brahman) undergoing such a transformation, referring to your comments above highlighted in red.

 

[atanu]

Understood, but the part I want to focus on is what exactly is involved in the Absolute (Brahman) undergoing such a transformation, referring to your comments above highlighted in red.

What is involved in one seeing an elephant, apparently within the small space of one's head, in dream?

 

[godnotgod]

There is only seeing, if 'I' see...

And is there only heart-beating if 'you' beat; blood-flowing if 'you' flow; breathing in sleep when 'you' breathe; digestion when ''you digest; hearing when 'you' hear; smelling when 'you' smell; feeling when 'you' feel, and on and on and on? See how ridiculous and archaic this can get?

Show me the feelingh-feeler, odor-smeller, food-digester, sound-hearer, heart-beater, blood-flower, breath-breather, experience-experiencer, sight-see-er, and thought-thinker. My, my...that is quite a list of tasks this mysterious "I" must juggle all at once, including self-observation. Must be some sort of magician.

You see how awkward it can become.

Eliminate the do-er, and everything smooths out.

You are not the thing called "I" that acts; you are the act itself, played by the universe.

Get out of the Model T and jump into the Rolls-Royce.

This is why consciousness has relegated many of these functions to the brain, putting them on 'automatic' so that it can focus on what is spontaneously arising in the moment.

The brain does not produce consciousness as anal Science supposes; on the contrary; it is consciousness which produces the brain, it being a tool of consciousness.

 

[godnotgod]

What is involved in one seeing an elephant, apparently within the small space of one's head, in dream?

That is not the question I am asking about. I want to know how it is that the Absolute 'forgets' that the light is of the Self. In other words, what is the rationale behind such a move?

 

[godnotgod]

Funny that "death" means "living in another form" in most religions...even Churchianity!

That's because we are God pretending to me mortal beings who undergo a finality called 'death' as a means of reuniting with himself where no separation has occurrred in the first place. It is God playing the cosmic game of Hide and Seek with himself.

 

[atanu]

That is not the question I am asking about. I want to know how it is that the Absolute 'forgets' that the light is of the Self. In other words, what is the rationale behind such a move?

But I answered it.

In dream, the dream hunger needs to appeased with dream food. The real real (called Turiya or the fourth, the Being 'atman' beyond the three states of sleeping, dreaming, and waking) is not deluded.

The freedom means knowing the fourth. And knowing the fourth means being the fourth, since the fourth is one-without a second.

 

[atanu]

"I" exists by virtue of thought. It does not exist when not thinking about it. Someday you will learn to sneak up on it and actually see it creating itself. Be alert.----

The question is "Whose thought?"

The mistake (illusion) is to consider the Absolute ( the whole) to be composed of many real "I"-s, with different sources of intelligence and life. But how it is a mistake to understand the basic nature of the whole is the "I" sense?

Since, by rejecting the self altogether we have to reject all that you or anyone tells. We have to reject the teacher and we have to reject the student. Then who are we? There is no point of any discussion from that basis.

There is a real Self within the illusory self. Or rather the real Self is.

 

[godnotgod]

But I answered it.

In dream, the dream hunger needs to appeased with dream food. The real real (called Turiya or the fourth, the Being 'atman' beyond the three states of sleeping, dreaming, and waking) is not deluded.

The freedom means knowing the fourth. And knowing the fourth means being the fourth, since the fourth is one-without a second.

You have described it, but have not yet provided the reason behind the impetus for Self-forgetting.

The controversy has raged for centuries as to whether an eternal abiding self called the 'atman' is real. Those who maintain such a position have come to be known as 'the eternalists', while those who reject the concept are known as 'materialists'. They maintain that no such 'atman' exists as a core within humanity; that the death of the body is the death of the psycho-physical being. The Buddha rejected both views as extreme and unverifiable accounts of Reality, the eternalists on the grounds that no such 'atman' could be found, and the 'materialists' on the grounds that they left out consciousness. When looked at more objectively, it is seen clearly that the materialist and the eternalist views comprise a dualistic mode of thought. In rejecting both as frozen, conceptual views, the Buddha followed the Middle Way, leaning to neither view, since the real world is one of experience, which neither view accounts for. Reality is not frozen, but a living, flowing experience.

 

[atanu]

You have described it, but have not yet provided the reason behind the impetus for Self-forgetting.

But I said that the Self, the Turiya, has no forgetfullness. As for the impetus for the three dream states of sleep, dream, and waking, the following is offered (tentatively and as mere suggestion).

MAITRAYANA-BRAHMAYA-UPANISHAD

6) He who sees this, does not see death, nor disease, nor misery, for seeing he sees all (objectively, not as affecting him subjectively); he becomes all everywhere (he becomes Brahman).
(7) There is the person in the eye, there is he who walks as in sleep, he who is sound asleep, and he who is above the sleeper: these are the four conditions (of the Self), and the fourth is greater than all.
(8) Brahman with one foot moves in the three, and Brahman with three feet is in the last.
It is that both the true (in the fourth condition) and the untrue (in the three conditions) may have their dessert, that the Great Self (seems to) become two, yes, that he (seems to) become two.

The above, for me, is adequate scripture. Nothing more is required. And, IMO, there is gold in there for every one. I request proper mastication of the above.

 

[godnotgod]

The question is "Whose thought?"

Is it? Is the source necessarily an anthropomorphic one, or can it be impersonal?

 

[idea]

The controversy has raged for centuries as to whether an eternal abiding self called the 'atman' is real.

It comes down to free will - if you believe we are robots - just cause/effect materialistic/mechanical beings... vs. if you think there's more to us than nature/nurture - more to us than the color of our skin/DNA, or the neighborhood we grew up in... Racism is looked down upon because everyone recognizes we are more than our materialistic makeup.

Death is the separation of spirit and body, but our spirit is eternal, as all matter, energy, and everything is... simple conservation laws - you don't get something from nothing, conservation of mass/energy/information/spirit - all of it is eternal.

Our eternal nature is manifest in our free will, there is no ultimate outside cause to trace all our actions back to, because there is no ultimate beginning to any of it.

 

[atanu]

Is it? Is the source necessarily an anthropomorphic one, or can it be impersonal?

No. We do not believe in form-name to be real. They are transient. But whatever entity or being is having a thought cannot be unreal,

Kindly see the previous post on MAITRAYANA-BRAHMAYA-UPANISHAD.

 

[atanu]

I am tempted to repeat the post. I hope Mods will not be annoyed.

You have described it, but have not yet provided the reason behind the impetus for Self-forgetting.

But I said that the Self, the Turiya, has no forgetfullness. As for the impetus for the three dream states of sleep, dream, and waking, the following is offered (tentatively and as mere suggestion).

MAITRAYANA-BRAHMAYA-UPANISHAD

6) He who sees this, does not see death, nor disease, nor misery, for seeing he sees all (objectively, not as affecting him subjectively); he becomes all everywhere (he becomes Brahman).
(7) There is the person in the eye, there is he who walks as in sleep, he who is sound asleep, and he who is above the sleeper: these are the four conditions (of the Self), and the fourth is greater than all.
(8) Brahman with one foot moves in the three, and Brahman with three feet is in the last.
It is that both the true (in the fourth condition) and the untrue (in the three conditions) may have their dessert, that the Great Self (seems to) become two, yes, that he (seems to) become two.

The above, for me, is adequate scripture. Nothing more is required. And, IMO, there is gold in there for every one. I request proper mastication of the above.

 

[godnotgod]

But I said that the Self, the Turiya, has no forgetfullness. As for the impetus for the three dream states of sleep, dream, and waking, the following is offered (tentatively and as mere suggestion).

I am trying to reconcile the above with the following statement you made earlier:

The story is of brahmA, the creator -- not Brahman the absolute but an aspect of it -- who pursues his own light....forgetting that the light is of the Self.

 

[godnotgod]

Death is the separation of spirit and body, but our spirit is eternal, as all matter, energy, and everything is... simple conservation laws - you don't get something from nothing.....

Unless, of course, the 'something' in question is an illusion.

 

[atanu]

I am trying to reconcile the above with the following statement you made earlier:

What do you mean man? . Who claimed that brahmA the creator is of perfect kowledge? It is what, IMO, scripture is poiting out "Man, do you remember that brahmA role?"

In an alternative way, would Peter Sellers be a good Chief Inspector Clouseau, if he still remained Peter Sellers on the screen?

 

[atanu]

Unless, of course, the 'something' in question is an illusion.

No. The reality is not an illusion. The reality has the nature of existence, intelligence,and bliss. The reality alone assuming a personae, wills "Let me be many".

If the Word has no reality then this post of yours has even less reality. No scripture then has any meaning whatsoever.

 

[godnotgod]

What do you mean man? . Who claimed that brahmA the creator is of perfect kowledge? It is what, IMO, scripture is poiting out "Man, do you remember that brahmA role?"

In an alternative way, would Peter Sellers be a good Chief Inspector Clouseau, if he still remained Peter Sellers on the screen?

Look here: I am merely attempting to ascertain how and why the Perfect lost sight of itself. If Brahma is imperfect, how did he become that way?

It is stated in the kalpas that, in the beginning of the cycle, all is in perfect harmony. At the end of the first kalpa a little bit of chaos is introduced. What is the nature of this initial introduction of chaos in a perfect world?

 

[godnotgod]

No. The reality is not an illusion. The reality has the nature of existence, intelligence,and bliss. The reality alone assuming a personae, wills "Let me be many".

You are saying that lila and maya do not exist? That this world is NOT maya?

Having said that, I do agree that this phenomenal world and True Reality are one and the same; that the Ordinary and the Miraculous are one and the same.

Let us distinguish between reality and Reality.

If the Word has no reality then this post of yours has even less reality. No scripture then has any meaning whatsoever.

Unless scripture is written from an awakened mind immersed in True Reality, while still living in the world of appearances. To the unenlightened, the universe is a creation of the Absolute, an artifact; but to the enlightened mind, "the universe IS the Absolute [itself] as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation.", as Vivikenanda points out.

Jesus rightly pointed out that scripture is indeed meaningless as a means of attaining eternal life. That is why the Zen Buddhists put scripture aside and go directly to the source. Once a spiritual transformation is attained, scripture can then be read in the proper context.