What Happens When You Die?

[Muffled]

He meant exactly the opposite of what you are saying. He was saying to leave behind that which is associated with one's Earthly identity, and focus on the intangible treasures of the spirit, which is beyond identity. That is why the spiritual life is free. It is not bound by desire, expectation, outcome, time or space.



All evil originates out of some concept of what is good, so if God is going to repress evil, he must also simultaneously repress the good. Enlightenment is what cures this problem, because now one sees both good and evil for what they are. The solution lies in seeing into the nature of both, rather than repression. We all know the consequences of repression. It only makes matters worse. The scenario you describe is contrived to make it fit your belief system. What I am saying is that there is an Absolute Good beyond relative Good and Evil that does not involve repression, but transcendence.

I believe you can make the statement but you can't prove it.

I believe Jesus said nothing abaout leaving anything behind. I do believe He was saying to focus on the intangibles ie one can't take a physical table to Heaven. However is a table a treasure in Heaven? I believe anything evil goes away so stealing a table does not produce treasure in Heaven.

I believe desire is part of the will which is an attribute of the spirit. I believe the spirit is capable of the other things but I would question their value.

I beleive your conclusion doesn't follow from the premise. I believe it would be like saying if I paint my stairs white I also must paint them black.

I believe this conclusion is based on somethng earthly.

I believe that is speculation on your part.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Muffled]

So there is something about the flesh that makes it desirable to resurrect it into an eternal state. What is that something?

I believe there is no intrinsic value in the flesh but there is relative value in a continuity of life.

The re-entrance of a spirit into a body is proof that there is something left after the body is gone or rather after the spirit has abandoned the body in the case of those who know they can.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I believe there is no intrinsic value in the flesh but there is relative value in a continuity of life.

The re-entrance of a spirit into a body is proof that there is something left after the body is gone or rather after the spirit has abandoned the body in the case of those who know they can.

What are you referring to?

 

[Muffled]

I think there is a catch 22 here. People's morals can/do get influenced by a strong/charismatic individuals. Like say a Religious leader. Actually there are a lot of factors that go into the development of one's morals.

Still I notice people interpret religious documents in a manner that Justifies their own sense of right and wrong. We end up with a lot of differing interpretations. Each individual feeling justified not so much based on the actual wording of "scripture" but that is fits with their sense of morals.

While I'm open to understanding the beliefs of others, I'm doubtful there is a solid basis of truth at the foundation of these interpretations.

"What happens when we die?" What do we really know?

I've personal experiences which I rely on to develop an understanding. When I read the Bible, I read it in such a way that supports these experiences. No real idea if any of this has anything to do with the intended message of Jesus. I'd like to think it does but I guess I understand there is no guarantees.

In the Bible it says to not rely on our own understanding but trust in God. I don't think we know enough to say what happens with any certainty. Yet people go about making statements with conviction.

That conviction comes from what? Their own understanding? Or, trust in God?

I remember long ago giving my life to God, not because of conviction but because of a lack of it. I'd no idea of the truth of things. I told God I'd leave it up to him to decide the course of my life. I think the burden given to us is not that of knowing the truth. The burden we have is one of trusting God.

I think that extends into trusting God with regards to the lives of others as well.

So I wonder to myself sometimes why we insist on going about, working so hard to convince others of the "truth".

I suppose since a person chooses whether to be influenced or not so the choice always returns to the individual.

I believe this is a person following his sin nature instead of following Jesus.

Jesus said that He is the Way the Truth and the Life.

We know what God tells us since He knows everything.

I believe this is a limiting factor since there are many more experence than your own.

It comes from the Spirit of God.

My wife decided to do that. So ignoring the truth of God she sinned and paid a high penalty for it. Jesus is not your Lord unless you are willing to do His will.

I believe it is due to the fact that people in general do not have the Holy Spirit to assist them and therefore need someone who does.

 

[Muffled]

What are you referring to?

The resurrection of Jesus.

 

[godnotgod]

Because that is what the Catholic Church teaches and I believe it based on the Bible and Sacred Tradition.

Right. People believed in Hitler too.

They believed the Church when it authoritatively stated that the Sun traveled around the Earth.

They believed the Church when it went to war in the name of God to kill tens of thousands over the millenia.

They believed the Bible when God, in Deuteronomy 20, tells the Jews it is OK to murder the heathens if they do not submit, and to leave no one breathing.

And on and on ad nauseum.

So you base your belief on 'authority', rather than what is true.

 

[Sha'irullah]

The resurrection of Jesus.

The resurrection of Jesus is not a proven fact. To be honest the existence of Jesus alone is sketchy.

 

[Nakosis]

I suppose since a person chooses whether to be influenced or not so the choice always returns to the individual.

People are not always aware of what exactly is influencing them. I can't choose my morals. I can choose to disregard my morals in favor of the ethical principles of a particular religion.

I believe this is a person following his sin nature instead of following Jesus.

Perhaps but they feel they are being true to the teachings of Jesus just as you. You maybe yourself are or are not, I don't know. Just pointing out that many Christians feel they are true Christians. Often they are happy to claim others are not. Personally I don't think we can determine the intent of what Jesus taught through the Bible alone.

Jesus said that He is the Way the Truth and the Life.

I'm fine with that. A person should seek to the best of their ability the truth. If Jesus is the truth then that is what they will find.

We know what God tells us since He knows everything.

What has God told you? How much are you relying on what others claim God has said?

I believe this is a limiting factor since there are many more experence than your own.

I have to rely on someone's personal experience. My own, at least I can justify my reasoning. Someone else's, I can never be certain of their reasoning. Maybe if I know them and feel I can trust them. People I don't know I've no good reason rely on their experiences.

It comes from the Spirit of God.

Or belief it comes from the Spirit of God. People act from conviction based on (strong) belief, still, not necessarily actuality.

My wife decided to do that. So ignoring the truth of God she sinned and paid a high penalty for it. Jesus is not your Lord unless you are willing to do His will.

So you think it is wrong to trust in God but then who are you trusting in Jesus' will?

I believe it is due to the fact that people in general do not have the Holy Spirit to assist them and therefore need someone who does.

How do you judge whether or not someone has the Holy Spirit to guide them?

 

[godnotgod]

When you die its over, that's it, don't be greedy, just let go.

Yes, and not only let go of death and the fear of death, but also let go of the notion that there is a self that dies. Where there is no self that dies, there can be no death.

 

[godnotgod]

I believe there is no intrinsic value in the flesh but there is relative value in a continuity of life.

The general Christian view is that there is an Absolute value in the continuity of life, as evinced by the doctrine of universal re-union with the body in a heavenly or hellish afterlife. Without the flesh, there can be no everlasting torture nor everlasting pleasure. The Christian religion is all about the flesh, and as I indicated earlier, is that way simply because it is in the child stage of religion. IOW, the child sees the continuity of life as a fleshy extension of THIS life, but without suffering. The child experiences his world as either fleshy pleasure or pain. He has not yet developed higher states of consciousness. Parents and other authority figures represent security to him, but at some point he comes to the realization that earthly parents pass away. This is cause for Metaphysical Anxiety. He does not remember where he came from, why he is here, nor where he is going after death. So he invents a permanent parent figure in the image of 'Jesus' who will save him from what he imagines as an everlasting place of FLESHY torment, and entry into an everlasting place of FLESHY pleasure which he thinks he has earned. He also invents extreme polarized extensions of Good and Evil as Super-Good, personified by 'Jesus', and Super-Malevolence, as personified by 'Satan'. The impermanence of the world is a problem for him, and he sees it as a place of corruption and ugliness from which he must escape. So not only does the flesh feed what he thinks is his 'sin nature', the world itself is filled with sin. (These notions probably originated within Gnosticism, which saw the body as corrupt and to be discarded like old clothing.) For many Christians, they are experiencing an inner war between what they think is the flesh vs. the spirit, as elaborated by St. Paul:

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh;
for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
Galatians 5

The problem here is that what is deemed 'spirit' is seen as distinct from 'flesh', where there is no such distinction in actual reality. This distinction is held only within the mind, but is further seen as being in conflict one with the other. It is this inner conflict, born of ignorance and fear of one's own nature, from which the outward projections of heaven and hell, Jesus and Satan, Good and Evil, emanate. People who are enlightened do not have this kind of conflict.

 

[godnotgod]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Of course you don't. You still live in the world of duality, of conflict, between relative joy and relative suffering. Absolute Joy is transcendent of both, though it includes both. There is no opposite to Absolute Joy. It is the state of being fully awake in the here and now. Being fully awake in the here and now means that you no longer see things in opposition to one another, but rather as complimentary and in harmony. IOW, you seen things as they are, rather than how your limited mind imagines them to be. Because you don't see things as they are, you create all sorts of scenarios, overlaying them onto reality, in order to 'explain' that which you cannot understand with your limited mind. Yeshu himself told us about this, when he warned his listeners that they sought eternal life in the scriptures, when the scriptures were about Him. In order to understand this, the limited mind must be transcended and transformed, so that the inner spiritual eye opens, allowing a view which shows us that what we only thought was the case, is not actually the case.

 

[godnotgod]

The Skeleton

" Chattering finch and water-fly
Are not merrier than I;
Here among the flowers I lie
Laughing everlastingly.
No: I may not tell the best;
Surely, friends, I might have guessed
Death was but the good King's jest,
It was hid so carefully.”


― G.K. Chesterton

 

[godnotgod]

Die now, before you die.

Then it will be over.

Then there will be no more death.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGqQ17X4hwA

 

[godnotgod]

Yeshu himself told us about this, when he warned his listeners that they sought eternal life in the scriptures, when the scriptures were about Him. In order to understand this, the limited mind must be transcended and transformed, so that the inner spiritual eye opens, allowing a view which shows us that what we only thought was the case, is not actually the case;

....that what we read in scripture as a description of the spiritual experience, is not the spiritual experience itself.

 

[godnotgod]

Returning to where you've always been....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvB2NqKPBxw

 

[Thief]

Die now, before you die.

Then it will be over.

Then there will be no more death.

Die once.
Do not die the second death...so I've read.

 

[godnotgod]

Die once.
Do not die the second death...so I've read.

The second death [Revelation 20:14] occurs after physical death; therefore it is a belief. But I am referring to death that is experienced before physical death, so it is not a belief.

 

[Thief]

The second death [Revelation 20:14] occurs after physical death; therefore it is a belief. But I am referring to death that is experienced before physical death, so it is not a belief.

Oh no you don't.
It's belief no matter HOW you choose to look at it.

Of course, some of us believe in reality.....and some of us are faking it.

We die in flesh....real.
We can die in spirit.................if you insist.

 

[godnotgod]

Oh no you don't.
It's belief no matter HOW you choose to look at it.

Of course, some of us believe in reality.....and some of us are faking it.

We die in flesh....real.
We can die in spirit.................if you insist.

I am not referring to physical or spiritual death; I am referring to the death of the ego; the illusory self. That is not a belief, as your after-death scenario is; it is a direct inner experience that is unmistakable before physical death of the body. You are not your body. When the body dies, it is not you who dies. In order for you to die, there must be a self, but looked for, we find no such self. So ego-death is simply the cessation of illusion, while consciousness is always present.

You admit that the so-called 'second-death' is merely a belief. Of what use is it?

 

[Thief]

I am not referring to physical or spiritual death; I am referring to the death of the ego; the illusory self. That is not a belief, as your after-death scenario is; it is a direct inner experience that is unmistakable before physical death of the body. You are not your body. When the body dies, it is not you who dies. In order for you to die, there must be a self, but looked for, we find no such self. So ego-death is simply the cessation of illusion, while consciousness is always present.

You admit that the so-called 'second-death' is merely a belief. Of what use is it?

We are assembled.
As assemblies we can be taken apart.

'Fear not anyone who would harm the flesh. Fear instead, He who can rend the soul'....
So I've read....somewhere.