What Happens When You Die?

[Muffled]

So what does that mean? Do Christians go to an afterlife as the person they now are? If you are Joe Blow the Good, Deserving Christian, is that your identity in the Christian Heaven? Does everyone say: 'Say, isn't that Joe Blow, that really Good, Deserving Crhistian whom Jesus loves to death? I hear he led an impeccable life on Earth. Maybe that's why HE gets that fancy house on the hill, while we who barely made it into heaven get these ordinary one room huts on the edge of Paradise. Lucky stiff! Some Christians have all the luck! I don't think it's fair, do you, Jane? I mean, I don't think Joe was all THAT good! I think I deserve better than him, actually. And then there's those pesky Muslims with their 17 virgins. Shameless! It's just not fair, I say!'

'Reward the deserving man, and one plants envy in the hearts of the undeserving'
Lao tse, Tao te Ching

'Oh Lord, let not my gaze be too high, nor too low, but fixed on that thin line of the horizon between Heaven and Earth'
Sufi saying

I believe it means whether living in a body or out of the body, I have the spirit of life with me.

I believe the body dies which is why it is called an after-life and the spirit remains the same except that it is out of body. It is what comes next that can alter the spirit ie Heaven or return to life in anew body.

I believe there is only one Heaven and a persons identity is similar but the memory of evil is no longer present in the spirit.

I believe that a person will be known by the good that was done on earth.

I don't believe there is a better Heaven for one than another other than the treasure gathered up in the previous life. Since there is no evil in Heaven there is no envy.

There is no luck. A person either gathers treasure or he does not.

I believe I could have the image of virgins in Heaven as well but I couldn't do anything evil with them. At any rate the reference in the Qu'ran is not to Heaven but to the Kingdom of God. I tend to think the concept of rewards that you are entertaining have more to do with the Kingdom of God than Heaven.

 

[godnotgod]

I believe there is only one Heaven and a persons identity is similar but the memory of evil is no longer present in the spirit.

So you are saying that some or all of our personal, Earthly identity we now experience goes with us into the afterlife?

 

[Thief]

So you are saying that some or all of our personal, Earthly identity we now experience goes with us into the afterlife?

And 'I' would agree to that.

 

[godnotgod]

And 'I' would agree to that.

For what reason(s)?

 

[Thief]

You want to run the whole thread?.....again?

 

[Nakosis]

No offense to any intended but it seems obvious people alter their theology to fit their morality.

Scripture is then interpreted in such a manner to support the necessary adjustment. Religion ends up supporting the morality we already had.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

In a recent interview, famed medical doctor and spiritualist Deepak Chopra stated the following:

Q: What happens when you die, Deepak?

Chopra: What happens when you die, is you return to where you always are. If you realize right now that there's no such thing as a person, you'll be all set.

Q: What do you mean, I'll be all set?

Chopra: Then if you shift your identity to that consciousness that is differentiating as observer and observant, you'll know there's nothing to fear.

Q: You have no fear of death.

Chopra: No Sir! Why? Because I don't exist in the first place!

Q: Can you get reincarnated as a soul?

Chopra: [Sighs] Wisps of memory and threads of desire, which are specks of information, latch onto specks of consciousness and show up as recycled human beings. But in the bigger picture, the observer, the observed, the process of observation, is a single reality.

Q: So... Deepak Chopra, as I know him [questioner taps the sitting Chopra solidly on the knee for effect] my friend Chopra... doesn't exist?

Chopra: A transient behavior of... the total universe.

What do you think Chopra means when he says:

"What happens when you die, is you return to where you always are."

Here also is the video of the interview:

[youtube]erOD_2AxzI0[/youtube]
Deepak Chopra "Life After Death" Interview Hottype - YouTube

What happens when we die? To be absolutely frank, our body and all its organs shut down, and we're put in the ground, where our body is eaten by microorganisms until there is nothing left. that's it... that's what happens.

 

[godnotgod]

What happens when we die? To be absolutely frank, our body and all its organs shut down, and we're put in the ground, where our body is eaten by microorganisms until there is nothing left. that's it... that's what happens.

Are 'you' your body?

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

Are 'you' your body?

Yes... There is no proof showing otherwise. All of my thoughts, my personality, etc. are controlled by the brain. When my brain dies, all of that dies with it.

 

[Nakosis]

Yes... There is no proof showing otherwise. All of my thoughts, my personality, etc. are controlled by the brain. When my brain dies, all of that dies with it.

If this all could continue on without your current body. Would you still exist?

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

If this all could continue on without your current body. Would you still exist?

The thing is... It cannot continue without the body. The Brain is your control center. Without it, there are no thoughts. No matter how hypothetical we view this. It is still not likely... given the current knowledge we have of the human central nervous system.

 

[godnotgod]

Yes... There is no proof showing otherwise. All of my thoughts, my personality, etc. are controlled by the brain. When my brain dies, all of that dies with it.

We do have proof that focused consciousness (ie meditation) grows brain material. Studies of long term meditators have demonstrated the growth of thicker cortexes, when compared to non-meditators.

It has long been known that meditative states control brain waves, particularly Alpha waves, which are indicators of higher states of consciousness.

The brain 'controls' the body only insofar as autonomic functions are concerned. That is because consciousness has relegated these functions to the brain so it does'nt have to have them up front all the time while it is trying to focus on more immediate matters.

 

[Daemon Sophic]

We do have proof that focused consciousness (ie meditation) grows brain material. Studies of long term meditators have demonstrated the growth of thicker cortexes, when compared to non-meditators.
....snip.....

:sarcastic ehhhhh....You're treading a thin line there, between knowledge and wishful thinking.
What actual studies that have been done on the subject are not fully accounting for standard dementia/atrophy of older age. In studies of Alzheimers, those that actively use their brains into their later years (whether meditating, socializing, playing cards or crossword puzzles, etc....) do seem to have less symptomatic dementia, and show less physical atrophy of the brain as they get into their 60s, 70s, and 80s.
But actually growing larger cortices, or adding neurons??..:sarcastic....mmmmm.....I think we should reserve judgement just yet.

PS -
I would be interested in the dementia/atrophy rates compared between conservatives and progressives, in their declining years. :yes:

PPS - of course none of this addresses the "mind" vs "brain" topic that is really at issue.

 

[Muffled]

So you are saying that some or all of our personal, Earthly identity we now experience goes with us into the afterlife?

Yes. What did you think Jesus was saying when He saud gather up treasure in Heaven? BTW even though there is no memory of evil it is still there but repressed by God so one isn't conscious of it. So if a person leaves Heaven and enters a new phhysical body during a time of evil the memories are still repressed but the tendencies are still there.

 

[Muffled]

No offense to any intended but it seems obvious people alter their theology to fit their morality.

Scripture is then interpreted in such a manner to support the necessary adjustment. Religion ends up supporting the morality we already had.

I believe that is true in many cases but I also believe that people are capable of shaping their morality around their relgious beliefs.

 

[Muffled]

What happens when we die? To be absolutely frank, our body and all its organs shut down, and we're put in the ground, where our body is eaten by microorganisms until there is nothing left. that's it... that's what happens.

I believe Chopra is referring to the concept that there is only God consciousness and that our identity is an extension of that and when we die that extension is retained in the God consciusness.

I believe there is nothing in the Bible that supports that concept.

I believe, no doubt the body perishes, if left to do so. Jesus returned to His body after death and raised the body to new life. That fact is inconsistent with "nothing left."

 

[godnotgod]

Yes. What did you think Jesus was saying when He saud gather up treasure in Heaven?

He meant exactly the opposite of what you are saying. He was saying to leave behind that which is associated with one's Earthly identity, and focus on the intangible treasures of the spirit, which is beyond identity. That is why the spiritual life is free. It is not bound by desire, expectation, outcome, time or space.

BTW even though there is no memory of evil it is still there but repressed by God so one isn't conscious of it. So if a person leaves Heaven and enters a new phhysical body during a time of evil the memories are still repressed but the tendencies are still there.

All evil originates out of some concept of what is good, so if God is going to repress evil, he must also simultaneously repress the good. Enlightenment is what cures this problem, because now one sees both good and evil for what they are. The solution lies in seeing into the nature of both, rather than repression. We all know the consequences of repression. It only makes matters worse. The scenario you describe is contrived to make it fit your belief system. What I am saying is that there is an Absolute Good beyond relative Good and Evil that does not involve repression, but transcendence.

 

[godnotgod]

I believe, no doubt the body perishes, if left to do so. Jesus returned to His body after death and raised the body to new life. That fact is inconsistent with "nothing left."

So there is something about the flesh that makes it desirable to resurrect it into an eternal state. What is that something?

 

[godnotgod]

:sarcastic ehhhhh....You're treading a thin line there, between knowledge and wishful thinking.
What actual studies that have been done on the subject are not fully accounting for standard dementia/atrophy of older age. In studies of Alzheimers, those that actively use their brains into their later years (whether meditating, socializing, playing cards or crossword puzzles, etc....) do seem to have less symptomatic dementia, and show less physical atrophy of the brain as they get into their 60s, 70s, and 80s.
But actually growing larger cortices, or adding neurons??..:sarcastic....mmmmm.....I think we should reserve judgement just yet.

PS -
I would be interested in the dementia/atrophy rates compared between conservatives and progressives, in their declining years. :yes:

PPS - of course none of this addresses the "mind" vs "brain" topic that is really at issue.

Thin line? Try 'thicker cortex':

Earlier evidence out of UCLA suggested that meditating for years thickens the brain (in a good way) and strengthens the connections between brain cells. Now a further report by UCLA researchers suggests yet another benefit.

Eileen Luders, an assistant professor at the UCLA Laboratory of Neuro Imaging, and colleagues, have found that long-term meditators have larger amounts of gyrification ("folding" of the cortex, which may allow the brain to process information faster) than people who do not meditate. Further, a direct correlation was found between the amount of gyrification and the number of meditation years, possibly providing further proof of the brain's neuroplasticity, or ability to adapt to environmental changes.

Rest of the article here:

Evidence builds that meditation strengthens the brain -- ScienceDaily

Bottom line: consciousness grows the brain; not the other way around.

 

[Nakosis]

I believe that is true in many cases but I also believe that people are capable of shaping their morality around their relgious beliefs.

I think there is a catch 22 here. People's morals can/do get influenced by a strong/charismatic individuals. Like say a Religious leader. Actually there are a lot of factors that go into the development of one's morals.

Still I notice people interpret religious documents in a manner that Justifies their own sense of right and wrong. We end up with a lot of differing interpretations. Each individual feeling justified not so much based on the actual wording of "scripture" but that is fits with their sense of morals.

While I'm open to understanding the beliefs of others, I'm doubtful there is a solid basis of truth at the foundation of these interpretations.

"What happens when we die?" What do we really know?

I've personal experiences which I rely on to develop an understanding. When I read the Bible, I read it in such a way that supports these experiences. No real idea if any of this has anything to do with the intended message of Jesus. I'd like to think it does but I guess I understand there is no guarantees.

In the Bible it says to not rely on our own understanding but trust in God. I don't think we know enough to say what happens with any certainty. Yet people go about making statements with conviction.

That conviction comes from what? Their own understanding? Or, trust in God?

I remember long ago giving my life to God, not because of conviction but because of a lack of it. I'd no idea of the truth of things. I told God I'd leave it up to him to decide the course of my life. I think the burden given to us is not that of knowing the truth. The burden we have is one of trusting God.

I think that extends into trusting God with regards to the lives of others as well.

So I wonder to myself sometimes why we insist on going about, working so hard to convince others of the "truth".