What Happens When You Die?

[godnotgod]

I suspect I need some time to contemplate these images.

I think it is true that there is no higher possible goal than being-consciousness-bliss. However that is not all that is going on.

No, but to be personally attached to the goings on is to get caught up in its drama. Therein lies the problem, I suspect.

Being-Conscousness-Bliss is exactly what is NOT going on. It simply is.

What seems to be 'going on' is the puppet show and all its consequences you talked about earlier.

 

[atanu]

THE Being implies an entity; Being is just essence itself, without a 'Be-er'. Is there an entity that is conscious, or is there simply Pure Consciousness itself?

The Sunyata is not the frontier .... Otherwise Sunyata will not be known and taught.

 

[Thief]

You're delusional. Show me where you leave off and Everything begins.

At the length of my arm.....the end of my nose.....

 

[Thief]

You have no cause to go on as you are. Such an identity can only be seen as a 'has been'. You'll stick out like a sore thumb in the new Heaven, and all the young girls will giggle at the newly arrived fossil. The best thing God can do for you in that case is to cause your rebirth back on Earth.

Of course you don't buy it; your ego will do everything possible to perpetuate its existence so it can receive praise, gratification, and adulation forever and ever, ad nauseum.

Girls in heaven?....of course there is.
and I've always had good luck with the ladies.

 

[atanu]

At the length of my arm.....the end of my nose.....

That is not a statement be-fitting a person who often reminds others 'Spirit first'.

 

[godnotgod]

At the length of my arm.....the end of my nose.....

Come now, Thief. You can do better than provide a mere simpleton's view.

What defines the length of your arm; the end of your nose?

C'mon, now. Use your head and don't post too hastily.

 

[godnotgod]

Girls in heaven?....of course there is.
and I've always had good luck with the ladies.

Must be that silken, forked tongue of yours; the same one you use when playing the nun-seducer.

 

[godnotgod]

The Sunyata is not the frontier .... Otherwise Sunyata will not be known and taught.

Infinite emptiness cannot be known nor taught; it cannot be the frontier because it is without boundary.

 

[Thief]

That is not a statement be-fitting a person who often reminds others 'Spirit first'.

Now... now....You know when I speak of the Spirit as First it is in regard to the Creator.
Spirit as the Source of all things.

I am not so immense....not so omnipotent.

Still, even on this smaller scale....spirit first.
And for now my influence is limited.

(this forum extends my reach quite a bit)

 

[atanu]

Infinite emptiness cannot be known nor taught; it cannot be the frontier because it is without boundary.

Then how have you come to know about it and how are you teaching/talking about it?

 

[godnotgod]

Then how have you come to know about it and how are you teaching/talking about it?

Because Sunyata is what everyone and Everything already is. It is Unborn, Ungrown. It is devoid of Knowledge; cannot be taught; cannot be learned.

 

[Nakosis]

Because Sunyata is what everyone and Everything already is. It is Unborn, Ungrown. It is devoid of Knowledge; cannot be taught; cannot be learned.

I think the question would be, in your current conscious awareness, have you experienced it?

This is supposed to be the most difficult of "enlightenment" to achieve. So I mean no offense in asking.

 

[godnotgod]

I think the question would be, in your current conscious awareness, have you experienced it?

Would it really be meaningful to you if I were to provide a 'yes' or 'no' answer?

I don't think so.

The important thing is whether YOU see into the nature of things, and in this respect, I can only say that Sunyata is always present, whether we realize it or not.

 

[Thief]

Would it really be meaningful to you if I were to provide a 'yes' or 'no' answer?

I don't think so.

The important thing is whether YOU see into the nature of things, and in this respect, I can only say that Sunyata is always present, whether we realize it or not.

If only 'you' COULD say yes or no......

And there's that 'YOU' word....again.

 

[godnotgod]

If only 'you' COULD say yes or no......

And there's that 'YOU' word....again.

Thief, that has already been explained to you multiple times. Do you understand how a word can be used purely as a matter of convention? I explain it, and you ignore it, then turn right around and repeat the same old tripe. Now cut it out....literally.

When I say 'you', I mean from the vantage point of consciousness; not from any particular ego called "I".

 

[atanu]

Because Sunyata is what everyone and Everything already is. It is Unborn, Ungrown. It is devoid of Knowledge; cannot be taught; cannot be learned.

I do not understand this. Let me refer to Heart Sutra.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"When the Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][ Commentary on above text ][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Was Coursing in the Deep Prajna Paramita."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][ Commentary on above text ][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"He Perceived That All Five Skandhas Are Empty."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][ Commentary on above text ] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Thus He Overcame All Ills and Suffering."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]............................[/FONT]​

One must experience the Sunyata. Thus, 'Sunyata' does not mean 'devoid of Self' and 'devoid of knowledge'. There is a Seer of the Sunyata. Only fact that emerges is that the Seer and Sunyata are not dual.​

 

[godnotgod]

I do not understand this. Let me refer to Heart Sutra.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"When the Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][ Commentary on above text ][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Was Coursing in the Deep Prajna Paramita."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][ Commentary on above text ][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"He Perceived That All Five Skandhas Are Empty."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][ Commentary on above text ] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Thus He Overcame All Ills and Suffering."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]............................[/FONT]​

One must experience the Sunyata. Thus, 'Sunyata' does not mean 'devoid of Self' and 'devoid of knowledge'. There is a Seer of the Sunyata. Only fact that emerges is that the Seer and Sunyata are not dual.​

If all 5 skandas are empty, where is any 'self'? The notion of a Seer of the skandas is also empty of self, is it not?

When you say: 'one must experience the Sunyata', and 'he percieved',you are implying that there is an experiencer of the the experience. There is no such experiencer; there is only the experience itself. An 'experiencer of the experience' is dual, making that which is being experienced an object of experience, in which case, there is no real unified experience as exemplified in the dictum: 'Tat tvam asi'.

If anything, it is the Sunyata that is experiencing us. IOW, we ourselves are nothing short of the Sunyata itself. Actually, everyone is already experiencing Sunyata, only it is seen as something else; ie; the skandas are seen as real, rather than as empty.

If Sunyata is empty, where is knowledge? Where is the knower? Where is the Seer? There is only emptiness itself. Remember:


That which is form is emptiness: that which is emptiness is form.

What is Emptiness? Emptiness is how we translate the Sanskrit noun Sunyata. The adjective form is Sunya, Empty.
Does Emptiness mean that Buddhists believe that nothing exists? No, Emptiness is not nothingness. It is the other side of interdependence (pratityasamutpada). All things are interrelated; you cannot take out an object and say this is here in and of itself. Its existence has no self-being (svabhava).* This is explained further by Avalokitesvara using the five skandhas.


http://webdharma.com/ctzg/heartsutra1.html

*This also reflects the Buddha's doctrine of Interdependent Origination.

 

[atanu]

If all 5 skandas are empty, where is any 'self'? The notion of a Seer of the skandas is also empty of self, is it not?
....

"He Perceived That All Five Skandhas Are Empty."
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][ Commentary on above text ] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Thus He Overcame All Ills and Suffering."[/FONT]
..................

Is it really difficult to agree that Being and Consciousness are same?

First one sees the Self as objects, then one sees the Self as void, then one sees the Self as Self, only in this last there is no seeing because seeing is being.”

(Bhagavan in 'Day by Day with Bhagavan' 21-7-46)

 

[godnotgod]

"He Perceived That All Five Skandhas Are Empty."
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][ Commentary on above text ] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Thus He Overcame All Ills and Suffering."[/FONT]
..................

Is it really difficult to agree that Being and Consciousness are same?

I have never said they were not, but the Seer is not A being; he is Being itself. There is no self, even though the wording above makes it seem so. Why? Because all ills and suffering require a self that suffers. The skandas 'he' is seeing as empty and devoid of self are within his own being.

 

[atanu]

I have never said they were not, but the Seer is not A being; he is Being itself. There is no self, even though the wording above makes it seem so. Why? Because all ills and suffering require a self that suffers. The skandas 'he' is seeing as empty and devoid of self are within his own being.

It seems word play of an atheist. Probably you have not experienced the Sunyata or probably not even contemplated on what Atma means. Atma is the ground wherefrom the "I" awareness rises and it is not the ego "i" itself. The Skandhas are empty does not mean that the Lokitesvara is also so. Lokitesvara perceives/experiences the objects as empty and disconnects from all pain. But who said that Lokitesvara as a Seer is empty? Then the Sunya would not be known and it would not be conveyed in words to us.

The anatta cannot apply to the unborn .. existence-consciousness. Only the die hard atheists who do not want to agree to an intelligence prior to or other than brain apply anatta to the unborn too.

I will go by the teaching of a realised Guru:

Visitor: That which rises as 'I' within us is the Self, is it not?
Sri Ramana Maharshi: No, it is the ego that rises as 'I'. That from which it arises is the Self (Atma).
Source: Day by Day with Bhagavan
22-7-46

First one sees the Self as objects, then one sees the Self as void, then one sees the Self as Self, only in this last there is no seeing because seeing is being.”
(Bhagavan in 'Day by Day with Bhagavan' 21-7-46)