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What Happens When You Die?

ZenMonkey

St. James VII
The issue is not whether I revere or love anyone; Idolatrous Love is not reverence; it is projection of the ego onto another. It is not about the 'other', but about oneself, and how oneself sees the 'other'.

Essentially, you have stated that Jesus saves us from death through his own sacrificial death, which is just an extrapolation of earlier superstitious beliefs, namely, that of the scapegoat, animal sacrifice for sin redemption, and the slaughter and consumption of the Paschal Lamb, Jesus being the spotless, and therefore 'worthy', 'Lamb of God'. Does this 'salvation' apply to all, including child rapists, murderers, and terrorists, or just to those who believe that it does?

I'm a universalist, so I believe that all will be saved in the end. I also believe in rebirth. Some call it reincarnation. I also told you that I'm not a Christian, but that I value the path Jesus followed. Here's my views in a nutshell. We're not being saved from death, we're being saved (free'd) from false understanding and that which binds us in life (our vices). Jesus was anointed. He came to save the world from false understanding and ignorance, so that the we might have life in abundance. All things in heaven and earth are reconciled and united through Christ. We are the body of Christ, so all things in heaven and earth are being united and reconciled by and though us. We are one. In love is our union (reconciliation) with God - who is life and love. We are reconciled (unified) with one another through love also. You are able to think, feel, hear, smell, taste, see, and perceive all life offers us. We live, move, and have their being in God. God is life and the spirit of life is love. Our existence in life is the dynamic process of interacting with God. It is through love that we are ale to know God's grace and mercy (comfort, joy, peace). It is through love that we are reconciled. Jesus showed us how. It comes down to loving life and one another.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
I don't believe in scapegoating.
However the Carpenter is my Inspiration.

There are lines drawn.

Is the Jewish scapegoat that carried away the sins of the community into the wilderness a prefigurement for Jesus or not? Is the Paschal Lamb a prefigurement for Jesus, the Lamb of God or not? Did Jesus carry the sins of mankind away when crucified because we are incapable of relieving ourselves of sin, or not?

Do you realize that this principle called 'transference' goes back at least to ancient Syria, around 24BC?

I'm afraid your lines are blurred.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Is the Jewish scapegoat that carried away the sins of the community into the wilderness a prefigurement for Jesus or not? Is the Paschal Lamb a prefigurement for Jesus, the Lamb of God or not? Did Jesus carry the sins of mankind away when crucified because we are incapable of relieving ourselves of sin, or not?

Do you realize that this principle called 'transference' goes back at least to ancient Syria, around 24BC?

I'm afraid your lines are blurred.

I say....again....I don't believe in scapegoating.

And most people have a problem with blurred lines.
I don't.
I suggest (again).......squint harder.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
I'm a universalist, so I believe that all will be saved in the end. I also believe in rebirth. Some call it reincarnation. I also told you that I'm not a Christian, but that I value the path Jesus followed. Here's my views in a nutshell. We're not being saved from death, we're being saved (free'd) from false understanding and that which binds us in life (our vices). Jesus was anointed. He came to save the world from false understanding and ignorance, so that the we might have life in abundance. All things in heaven and earth are reconciled and united through Christ. We are the body of Christ, so all things in heaven and earth are being united and reconciled by and though us. We are one. In love is our union (reconciliation) with God - who is life and love. We are reconciled (unified) with one another through love also. You are able to think, feel, hear, smell, taste, see, and perceive all life offers us. We live, move, and have their being in God. God is life and the spirit of life is love. Our existence in life is the dynamic process of interacting with God. It is through love that we are ale to know God's grace and mercy (comfort, joy, peace). It is through love that we are reconciled. Jesus showed us how. It comes down to loving life and one another.

I don't disagree, but these ideas are more Buddhistic than Christian. Actually,I think that the man upon whom the modern myth of Jesus is built via St. Paul, namely 'Yeshu', was a mystic Nazarene who did not teach blood sacrifice nor believe in bodily resurrection. It doesn't make sense to me that a being of higher spiritual awareness would see the superstitious practice of blood sacrifice as a means of expunging guilt and sin.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
I say....again....I don't believe in scapegoating.

And most people have a problem with blurred lines.
I don't.
I suggest (again).......squint harder.

I don't care what you believe. The fact of the matter is that the scapegoat is exactly the role Jesus played in taking on the sins of the world. Is this not clear to you?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I don't care what you believe. The fact of the matter is that the scapegoat is exactly the role Jesus played in taking on the sins of the world. Is this not clear to you?

Well if you really don't care?....but you keep on coming with response?

And no, the Carpenter is not a scapegoat.
(I strongly suspect He did not believe in the practice.
He set free the birds held in cages in the Temple)

When the choice was offered....Jesus or Barabbas....
The crowd may have been sympathetic to their rebellious son.
(Barabbas alledgedly killed someone while resisting Rome)....or
The crowd may have influenced by the Pharisees....or.....
The crowd was still upset about the Carpenter's behavior in the Temple.

Stacked deck.

As for the declaration of execution....The Pharisees objected.
'King of the Jews' was the inscription.

If Rome executes any and all who make such claim....
the Jewish prophecy of a Jewish king on a Jewish throne won't happen.

It was a false accusation.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
Purgatory or Hell.

A location for that?

I say...we each up end with others.... sharing the same mind and heart.
That would be heaven for some.
Hell for others.

Live forever with people that think and feel like you do?
Forever?
Sure about that?

Or maybe, we end up serving the people we offended.
Some people would have their work cut out for them.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
A location for that?

I say...we each up end with others.... sharing the same mind and heart.
That would be heaven for some.
Hell for others.

Live forever with people that think and feel like you do?
Forever?
Sure about that?

Or maybe, we end up serving the people we offended.
Some people would have their work cut out for them.

I think hell is reserved for the particularly evil/heinous
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Well if you really don't care?....but you keep on coming with response?

And no, the Carpenter is not a scapegoat.
(I strongly suspect He did not believe in the practice.
He set free the birds held in cages in the Temple)

When the choice was offered....Jesus or Barabbas....
The crowd may have been sympathetic to their rebellious son.
(Barabbas alledgedly killed someone while resisting Rome)....or
The crowd may have influenced by the Pharisees....or.....
The crowd was still upset about the Carpenter's behavior in the Temple.

Stacked deck.

As for the declaration of execution....The Pharisees objected.
'King of the Jews' was the inscription.

If Rome executes any and all who make such claim....
the Jewish prophecy of a Jewish king on a Jewish throne won't happen.

It was a false accusation.

YOU don't believe Jesus played the role of scapegoat, but Christian doctrine DOES. That is why I say I don't care what YOU believe. Doctrine sees the image of the OT scapegoat as a PREFIGUREMENT of Jesus, as well as the Paschal Lamb. I was a Christian. I was even an altar boy in the Catholic Church when Latin was still used. At every mass, we chanted:

"Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis"

(Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world, have mercy upon us.)
*****


In the Book of Leviticus chapter 16, God instructed Moses and Aaron to select two goats every year for an offering. One was to be used as a sin offering to atone for the sins and trans-gressions of the people. Once killed, it’s blood was to be sprinkled on God’s mercy seat on the Ark of the Covenant. There God would view the blood of the sin offering and have Mercy on the people and forgive their sins.

The high priest would then lay hands on the second goat which was allowed to live, and he would confess the sins of the people putting them on the head of the goat. The goat would then bear the blame for all the transgressions of the people and would be set free into the wilderness, where God would remember their sins no more. The goat became known as the scapegoat.
Jewish history records that it was a common practice to tie a red strip of cloth to the scapegoat. The red stripe represented the sin of the people which was atoned for by the red blood on the mercy seat. According to the Jewish Talmuds this red stripe would eventually turn white, signaling God’s acceptance of the offering.

There is an amazing reference in the Talmuds that verifies that after Jesus was crucified, God no longer accepted the sin offering and the scapegoat offered by the Jewish high priests. The Talmuds state:

"Forty years before the Temple was destroyed (30 A.D.) the chosen lot was not picked with the right hand, nor did the crimson stripe turn white, nor did the westernmost light burn; and the doors of the Temple’s Holy Place swung open by themselves, until Rabbi Yochanon ben Zakkai spoke saying: 'O most Holy Place, why have you become disturbed? I know full well that your destiny will be destruction, for the prophet Zechariah ben Iddo has already spoken regarding you saying: 'Open thy doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour the cedars' (Zech. 11:1).' Talmud Bavli, Yoma 39b

It's important to note that this event recorded in the Talmuds occurred 40 years before the destruction of the Temple which was destroyed in 70 A.D. The date of this amazing event was 30 A.D, the same year that Jesus offered himself as a sacrifice on the cross.
Jesus was the final sin offering and the scapegoat bearing the sins for all mankind.

"But Christ came as High Priest . . . . Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
. . . And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission. . . . so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. . . . For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. . . .

By that will we have been sanctified through
the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all . . . . this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God. . . . For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. . . . says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them," then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."
Hebrews 9:11--10:17 (NKJV)

Christ, the final scapegoat
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
YOU don't believe Jesus played the role of scapegoat, but Christian doctrine DOES. That is why I say I don't care what YOU believe. Doctrine sees the image of the OT scapegoat as a PREFIGUREMENT of Jesus, as well as the Paschal Lamb. I was a Christian. I was even an altar boy in the Catholic Church when Latin was still used. At every mass, we chanted:

"Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis"

(Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world, have mercy upon us.)
*****


In the Book of Leviticus chapter 16, God instructed Moses and Aaron to select two goats every year for an offering. One was to be used as a sin offering to atone for the sins and trans-gressions of the people. Once killed, it’s blood was to be sprinkled on God’s mercy seat on the Ark of the Covenant. There God would view the blood of the sin offering and have Mercy on the people and forgive their sins.

The high priest would then lay hands on the second goat which was allowed to live, and he would confess the sins of the people putting them on the head of the goat. The goat would then bear the blame for all the transgressions of the people and would be set free into the wilderness, where God would remember their sins no more. The goat became known as the scapegoat.
Jewish history records that it was a common practice to tie a red strip of cloth to the scapegoat. The red stripe represented the sin of the people which was atoned for by the red blood on the mercy seat. According to the Jewish Talmuds this red stripe would eventually turn white, signaling God’s acceptance of the offering.

There is an amazing reference in the Talmuds that verifies that after Jesus was crucified, God no longer accepted the sin offering and the scapegoat offered by the Jewish high priests. The Talmuds state:

"Forty years before the Temple was destroyed (30 A.D.) the chosen lot was not picked with the right hand, nor did the crimson stripe turn white, nor did the westernmost light burn; and the doors of the Temple’s Holy Place swung open by themselves, until Rabbi Yochanon ben Zakkai spoke saying: 'O most Holy Place, why have you become disturbed? I know full well that your destiny will be destruction, for the prophet Zechariah ben Iddo has already spoken regarding you saying: 'Open thy doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour the cedars' (Zech. 11:1).' Talmud Bavli, Yoma 39b

It's important to note that this event recorded in the Talmuds occurred 40 years before the destruction of the Temple which was destroyed in 70 A.D. The date of this amazing event was 30 A.D, the same year that Jesus offered himself as a sacrifice on the cross.

Jesus was the final sin offering and the scapegoat bearing the sins for all mankind.

"But Christ came as High Priest . . . . Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
. . . And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission. . . . so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. . . . For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. . . .

By that will we have been sanctified through
the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all . . . . this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God. . . . For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. . . . says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them," then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."
Hebrews 9:11--10:17 (NKJV)

Christ, the final scapegoat



Don't know about the rest of it, but if Jesus actually lived, I think he purposely went after the ancient Sacred King/Scapegoat Sacrifice, - in an attempt to break the Roman hold on the people.


I don't however believe he was "the messiah," or God.





*
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
A location for that?

I say...we each up end with others.... sharing the same mind and heart.
That would be heaven for some.
Hell for others.

Live forever with people that think and feel like you do?
Forever?
Sure about that?

Will you kindly explain?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Will you kindly explain?

6billion people will die in my life time.
We are likely then to regroup.

If heaven has a say in it.....
We end up with others like ourselves.

How else to be fair?
How else to be happy?

For some, the same mind and heart will be a blessing and peace.

For others, having to live in the chaos.....not so good.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I don't care what you believe. The fact of the matter is that the scapegoat is exactly the role Jesus played in taking on the sins of the world. Is this not clear to you?

I further contend....we will stand responsible for all we have said or done.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Don't know about the rest of it, but if Jesus actually lived, I think he purposely went after the ancient Sacred King/Scapegoat Sacrifice, - in an attempt to break the Roman hold on the people.


I don't however believe he was "the messiah," or God.

*

Yes, let's not forget that Yeshua was a political activist, he having been tried for sedition and treason by the Romans.

From the point of view of the Jews, they were in a hole that no human power could save them from. Only a power from 'another world' could do so, and so, the myth of the coming messiah grew and grew until one convenient Yeshua appears on the scene upon whom this notion of 'messiah' is bestowed. Add to this the themes of the Logos descending from the heavens as teacher, taken from the Gnostics, the dying and resurrecting man-god taken from the mystery religions which Paul had grown up with in Tarsus, and Jewish history as backdrop to lend credibility to the story, and you've got a living, breathing 'messiah' as seen from the parallax viewpoint.

I suspect that the breaking of the old covenant had much to do with Jewish guilt and their expectation of a messiah, and so Jesus represented a wholly new salvific covenant based on the shedding of divine blood, rather than the previous but unsuitable animal sacrifices.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
I further contend....we will stand responsible for all we have said or done.

Yes, but how we deal with those outcomes has been the burning question all along. This issue takes two paths: merit or grace. It was Martin Luther who broke with the Church on this issue, stating that we can do nothing about our situation; that only through the mercy of God's grace will we be saved. The Jewish scapegoat represented the vehicle by which our burden could be transferred, but proved inadequate in the end. Only divine blood itself could have the power to expunge sin; only God himself could be a spotless host, worthy of carrying away our collective sins. This 'washing away' of sin via divine blood as a means of forgiveness relieves us of the responsibility for them, other than making the effort to live a more sane life afterwards. Of course, the efficacy of this doctrine is wholly dependent upon how firmly we believe in it.

You may adopt the notion of responsibility, but you cannot undo some wrongdoings. All you can do is to ask forgiveness from those you have offended. But remember that Jesus did not ask his Father to forgive his transgressors for their sins, but for their ignorance. It is our ignorance that is the condition that precludes our offences. The cure for ignorance is enlightenment.
 

Leftimies

Dwelling in the Principle
I think the Japanese Buddhist poems provide valuable insight to this
question. I would like to cite two of them in particular.


***


Poem number one:

Koko ni kie

kashiko ni musubu
mizu no awa no
ukiyo ni meguru
mi ni koso arikere.

This body
keeps returning
to the sad world
like foam
on the water that
disappears here
to be reborn
over there.




Poem number two:

Adame naki
mi wa ukigumo ni
yosoetsutsu
hate wa sore ni zo
narihatenu beki.

This brief body,
often likened
to floating clouds,
in the end
must become that.


***


In summary, our bodies and the surrounding environment both share the attribute of pure existence. As such, difference between life and death is irrelevant from the perspective of existence, because it is indeed present in both. It is relevant for us as sentient beings, but not for us as aspects of reality. Reality has one body, the body of Mahavairocana Buddha, or Dainichi Nyorai, which is the embodiment of the emptiness. Perhaps it would be less complex to say that reality is emptiness and all things are part of it, whether dead or alive, organic or inorganic, matter-based or otherwise.

Thus, what is after death is what was before birth, and most importantly, what is right now. Reality exists in any case.
 
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