What has happened to Protestantism?

[Rival]

Who is the SV?

Sedevacantists.

Who the hell wants to type that

 

[IndigoChild5559]

They're not a part of the Catholic Church (according to the Catholic Church, which is also problematic as the SVs won't see its modern judgements as binding), but this doesn't negate that theologically they are Roman Catholics.

It's the same with the Russian Orthodox Church; they were excommunicated years ago but they're still theologically Orthodox Christians and are regarded as such, they're just not part of the Orthodox Church.

But I'm not referring to the bulk of their theology. I'm simply pointing out that if Catholic with Capital C refers back to the Catholic Church (as in the Pope's church), that they are not Catholic.

Since I'm now repeating myself, I feel like it's time to move on. If you still disagree, that's okay.

 

[Rival]

Though the CoE does reject the authority of the Pope, so if that is what defines Protestantism, then yes.

It really can't, as the Orthodox are clearly not Protestants.

 

[Kathryn]

Sedevacantists.

Who the hell wants to type that

Well, anyone who denies the Pope is in schism with the Roman Catholic church I believe. But oh well, call them whatever anyone prefers I guess. Doesn't matter to me - I will continue to call them what I prefer to call them.

 

[Rival]

But I'm not referring to the bulk of their theology. I'm simply pointing out that if Catholic with Capital C refers back to the Catholic Church (as in the Pope's church), that they are not Catholic.

Since I'm now repeating myself, I feel like it's time to move on. If you still disagree, that's okay.

No, I feel this is meaningful.

The issue you will encounter is that the Anglican Church does consider itself fully the Anglican Catholic Church and historically referred and refers to itself as the Catholic Church (just, reformed). It believes it represents the original Church prior to Mediaeval accretions and absurdities etc. and considers the RCC the false Church, broken from historical linage, which the AC has restored. This is why it keeps the episcopate, liturgy etc. and the Communion is called The Mass in the earliest Book of Common Prayer.

So yes, Anglicans consider themselves Catholics with a C and furthermore the Catholic Church, depending on who you ask.

 

[RestlessSoul]

It really can't, as the Orthodox are clearly not Protestants.

Indeed. To the Orthodox clergy, the Pope is an apostate.

 

[Kathryn]

It really can't, as the Orthodox are clearly not Protestants.

There are other reasons for a schism.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Via Media—Between What and What? | The North American Anglican

It's not settled what this is either, I know this one:

The first group of Anglicans (let’s call them “Calvinist Anglicans”) says that the via media runs between Wittenberg and Geneva but finally ends in Geneva.

The notion that the Anglican via media travels between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism has been “often debunked” by historians such as Anthony Milton in the first volume of the 4-volume Oxford History of Anglicanism. It was only John Henry Newman and his disciples who have imagined that the Anglican way in its basic outlook is neither Roman nor Protestant.

Thank you for the source. It was a good one, and worth chewing on.

At this point, I just don't see how this does justice to Anglo-Catholics. I mean, these people do things like venerate Mary and believe in Purgatory. They emphasize apostolic succession and believe in the seven sacraments. On and on. You have to be a scholar to know the difference between their Holy Communion and a Catholic Mass. Wiki says of Anglo-Catholicism:
"The principal objective of the Oxford Movement was the defence of the Church of England as a divinely founded institution, of the doctrine of apostolic succession and of the Book of Common Prayer as a "rule of faith". The key idea was that Anglicanism was not a Protestant denomination but a branch of the historic Catholic Church, along with the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox churches."

I will have to think on this further.

 

[Rival]

Thank you for the source. It was a good one, and worth chewing on.

At this point, I just don't see how this does justice to Anglo-Catholics. I mean, these people do things like venerate Mary and believe in Purgatory. They emphasize apostolic succession and believe in the seven sacraments. On and on. You have to be a scholar to know the difference between their Holy Communion and a Catholic Mass. Wiki says of Anglo-Catholicism:
"The principal objective of the Oxford Movement was the defence of the Church of England as a divinely founded institution, of the doctrine of apostolic succession and of the Book of Common Prayer as a "rule of faith". The key idea was that Anglicanism was not a Protestant denomination but a branch of the historic Catholic Church, along with the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox churches."

I will have to think on this further.

Indeed, which is where I'm coming from above. It's a difficult issue and is not yet resolved. It's very interesting though.

 

[Kathryn]

Thank you for the source. It was a good one, and worth chewing on.

At this point, I just don't see how this does justice to Anglo-Catholics. I mean, these people do things like venerate Mary and believe in Purgatory. They emphasize apostolic succession and believe in the seven sacraments. On and on. You have to be a scholar to know the difference between their Holy Communion and a Catholic Mass. Wiki says of Anglo-Catholicism:
"The principal objective of the Oxford Movement was the defence of the Church of England as a divinely founded institution, of the doctrine of apostolic succession and of the Book of Common Prayer as a "rule of faith". The key idea was that Anglicanism was not a Protestant denomination but a branch of the historic Catholic Church, along with the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox churches."

I will have to think on this further.

Henry VIII aligned himself with Protestants, and Queen Elizabeth 1 did as well. Many practicing Roman Catholics were put to death during their reigns, for being Roman Catholic. James 1 and Charles 1 continued the path toward more and more Protestantism.

The Anglican Church (C of E) agrees in many instances with the Lutheran and other Protestant churches, though it is pretty light on the details compared to the Lutheran and Catholic churches. James 1 instigated the King James Version of the bible, for goodness sake!

The C of E ordains women as priests and bishops, unlike the Roman Catholic church. It ordains transgender people as well, and non binary people. Since the Gender Recognition Act 2004, trans people legally confirmed in their gender identity under its provisions are able to marry someone of the opposite sex in their parish church.

About 47 percent of people in the UK are members of the Anglican Church.

Church of England - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Eddi]

About 47 percent of people in the UK are members of the Anglican Church.

The number by which they measure their membership is flawed and greatly inflated

For instance they would count me as an Anglican as I was christened in an Anglican church when I was an infant

There is no way to revoke that

I've looked into it and there isn't

As far as I care infant baptism counts for nothing and it's not as if "original sin" is a thing to lose sleep over....

 

[Heyo]

Personally, I see Lutheranism as the archaeopteryx of Protestantism: a stepping stone on the way to what we think of as "modern" birds/Protestantism, just with a few holdover features (teeth/not-quite-transubstantiation).

But Lutheranism has evolved. The Lutherans are one of the most progressive churches in Christianity. Women pastors, gay pastors, gay marriage (for some) are no problem.
So, not that fossil that you make it.

 

[Heyo]

and it would be awkward to attempt to establish formal precedence between the Monarchy of the Vatican and the Monarchy of the United Kingdom.

They could do what monarchs have done all the time to establish unions: give the children into marriage.





Wait ....

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Henry VIII aligned himself with Protestants

No, he really didn't. He had nothing to do with Luther or Calvin or Zwingli or any of the other reformers. The Church of England that he set up was Catholic in every way except one: the King was head of the Church rather than the pope.

That is far less the case today. Elizabeth and others introduced Protestant elements to the Church of England. Today it is a sort of hybrid, with elements of both Protestantism and Catholicism.

 

[Heyo]

Thank you for the source. It was a good one, and worth chewing on.

At this point, I just don't see how this does justice to Anglo-Catholics. I mean, these people do things like venerate Mary and believe in Purgatory. They emphasize apostolic succession and believe in the seven sacraments. On and on. You have to be a scholar to know the difference between their Holy Communion and a Catholic Mass. Wiki says of Anglo-Catholicism:
"The principal objective of the Oxford Movement was the defence of the Church of England as a divinely founded institution, of the doctrine of apostolic succession and of the Book of Common Prayer as a "rule of faith". The key idea was that Anglicanism was not a Protestant denomination but a branch of the historic Catholic Church, along with the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox churches."

I will have to think on this further.

A few years back, there were talks about reuniting the AC with the RCC, and they seemed to be serious about it. Has anyone any updates on that?

 

[Rival]

Henry VIII aligned himself with Protestants, and Queen Elizabeth 1 did as well. Many practicing Roman Catholics were put to death during their reigns, for being Roman Catholic. James 1 and Charles 1 continued the path toward more and more Protestantism.

The Anglican Church (C of E) agrees in many instances with the Lutheran and other Protestant churches, though it is pretty light on the details compared to the Lutheran and Catholic churches. James 1 instigated the King James Version of the bible, for goodness sake!

The C of E ordains women as priests and bishops, unlike the Roman Catholic church. It ordains transgender people as well, and non binary people. Since the Gender Recognition Act 2004, trans people legally confirmed in their gender identity under its provisions are able to marry someone of the opposite sex in their parish church.

About 47 percent of people in the UK are members of the Anglican Church.

Church of England - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The first part is not true,

Despite breaking with Rome and overthrowing the authority of the Pope, Henry never became a Protestant himself.

Why did Henry VIII break with Rome?

Find out about King Henry VIII’s break with the Catholic Church

www.rmg.co.uk

Henry had a political issue, not a religious one. In any other preceding era he'd have been given a divorce no problem. The issue is that his wife's nephew was the Holy Roman Emperor, who strongarmed the Pope into denying a divorce. Even this took six years, as the custom would have favoured a royal divorce in favour of a new wife who bore a son. This was not really controversial (practically) prior to this. Catherine's nephew, however, would have none of it; the Pope on his own would have been far more amenable as in prior times. But this time the HRE had the upper hand and a divorce was denied.

Henry was only doing what Mediaeval kings prior to him had done and barely seen a scandal by. This is why Henry was confused and outraged. There should have been a divorce according to precedent. His wife's family was the issue, not the Church per se.

Add to this that prior to the Gregorian Reformation, Kings, not the Pope, appointed Archbishops and Henry was only doing what an older theology allowed him to do. He essentially reversed the Reformation of the first millennium and did it the old fashioned way. Being very theologically literate, Henry knew all this.

 

[Rival]

A few years back, there were talks about reuniting the AC with the RCC, and they seemed to be serious about it. Has anyone any updates on that?

Strongly doubt this will happen, nor do I want it to. I can't think of any Anglicans who do.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Strongly doubt this will happen, nor do I want it to. I can't think of any Anglicans who do.

Mmm ..but there are plenty who would like to be back in the EU, though..

 

[muhammad_isa]

The first part is not true..

It is in a way..

Henry's religious beliefs remained aligned to traditional Catholicism throughout his reign. In order to secure royal supremacy over the church, however, Henry allied himself with Protestants, who until that time had been treated as heretics. The main doctrine of the Protestant Reformation was justification by faith alone rather than by good works.
- Wikipedia -

..and..

In the reign of Edward VI (1547–1553), the Church of England underwent an extensive theological reformation. Justification by faith was made a central teaching. Government-sanctioned iconoclasm led to the destruction of images and relics. Stained glass, shrines, statues, and roods were defaced or destroyed. Church walls were whitewashed and covered with biblical texts condemning idolatry. The most significant reform in Edward's reign was the adoption of an English liturgy to replace the old Latin rites. Written by Archbishop Thomas Cranmer, the 1549 Book of Common Prayer implicitly taught justification by faith, and rejected the Catholic doctrines of transubstantiation and the sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[Kathryn]

Strongly doubt this will happen, nor do I want it to. I can't think of any Anglicans who do.

Or Catholics either, for that matter,