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What if atheists had a missionary service?

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
JustWondering said:
Your god does not exist, therefore he can do nothing.

It is your belief that my God does not exist. Just because you don't believe he is there, doesn't mean he isn't.

Your mindset of "man is doomed to failure and only MY invisible sky god can save us" is dangerous. It promotes apathy towards very serious issues that a non-existent sky god is never going to fix for us. I'm sorry your so swept up in your religion to see that but its true.

My belief promotes hope. It is human apathy that is responsible for the world being a polluted rubbish dump...a monument to human greed. Your optimism is based on what? Man's track record so far is less than inspiring, don't you think? Do you really want to hold your breath waiting for inept humans to fix what's wrong? They soiled their own nest...God didn't do this to them...they did it to themselves.

You make it seem everything is black and white when the universe we live in is gray. No one chooses to have messed up brain chemistry that makes them psychotic or suicidal. No one gets to choose what culture and circumstances they are born into.

What makes you think that God is not aware of this? Do you believe that he is going to turf someone out of his kingdom because they are sick or born in the wrong culture? God has a way of making himself known to people of all cultures and with all illnesses. (Acts 10:34, 35)

I have made up my mind to say you are wrong about your beliefs. By defending your beliefs you are saying I'm wrong about mine. It's all good. That's what the debate forums are for.

Indeed. :)

I require evidence and claims that make sense to believe. So far, the bible and the religions and people who follow it have yet to provide any.

Perhaps you have been looking in Christendom.....God and his Christ are not there and never have been. (Matt 7:21-23)

So, I guess if a good afterlife is dependent on me honestly believing 2000+ year old fantastical stories from a time of superstition I'm screwed.

If this is what you choose, but I don't believe that they are "2000+ year old fantastical stories from a time of superstition".
I just believe that we don't have all the detail...nor should we need them of we have faith in the Creator of the Universe.
He knows what he is doing and has told us enough for now.

You claim to scrutinize using logic and common sense FROM A BELIEVER'S VIEWPOINT. How is that possible?
Its very simple....I have analysed the validity of the Bible's account of creation and found it to be supported by science.....not theoretical science, but true provable science. I do not support "creationism" nor do I subscribe to the accepted definition of ID. I just believe in an all-powerful, all-wise Creator, whose substance and abilities are beyond our capacity to know, and evaluate in mere human terms. I believe the creative periods were thousands of years long, not 24 hour days. The Bible supports these assumptions.

I have examined the Bible's explanation for the human condition and found it to be valid as well. Based on its accuracy so far, I don't question what it says about the future because the prophesy of the end times is unfolding all around us....The evidence is becoming more obvious every day as things in the world continue to spiral out of control. Personality traits in humans today reveal where we are in the stream of time. (2 Tim 3:1-5) And the sign Jesus gave to confirm this period before his return is plain for all to see. (Matt 24:2-14)
What other explanation can you offer?

If you have already bought in and doubled down on your belief system how can you be anything but biased?

Can I not ask you the same question? o_O
 
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It is your belief that my God does not exist. Just because you don't believe he is there, doesn't mean he isn't.

And vice versa.

My belief promotes hope. It is human apathy that is responsible for the world being a polluted rubbish dump...a monument to human greed. Your optimism is based on what? Man's track record so far is less than inspiring, don't you think? Do you really want to hold your breath waiting for inept humans to fix what's wrong? They soiled their own nest...God didn't do this to them...they did it to themselves.

Yes, your belief promotes false hope. I never said man is guaranteed to get his act together, I cannot predict the future. I said man is the only one who can fix things because there is no god who is going to do it for us. Therefore, promoting the mindset of sitting around looking to the skies, waiting for a mythical being to save us is dangerous.

What makes you think that God is not aware of this? Do you believe that he is going to turf someone out of his kingdom because they are sick or born in the wrong culture? God has a way of making himself known to people of all cultures and with all illnesses. (Acts 10:34, 35)

Mental illness and the fact that culture plays the biggest part in ones beliefs are glaringly obvious evidence against free will, and your belief system. Billions of people do not believe in your god, wasn't your god going to make himself known? Reality simply does not conform to your religions claims. If the bible stopped at just saying there was a god and he wanted us to get along it would be all good but it doesn't. It makes very specific claims that have been debunked, cannot be substantiated, and even contradict each other.

Perhaps you have been looking in Christendom.....God and his Christ are not there and never have been. (Matt 7:21-23)

I agree. The bible stories are just stories.

If this is what you choose, but I don't believe that they are "2000+ year old fantastical stories from a time of superstition".
I just believe that we don't have all the detail...nor should we need them of we have faith in the Creator of the Universe.
He knows what he is doing and has told us enough for now.

God has not told us anything. Men claiming to speak on god's behalf have had much to say. Unfounded faith is a worthless commodity I don't put any stock in.

Its very simple....I have analysed the validity of the Bible's account of creation and found it to be supported by science.....not theoretical science, but true provable science. I do not support "creationism" nor do I subscribe to the accepted definition of ID. I just believe in an all-powerful, all-wise Creator, whose substance and abilities are beyond our capacity to know, and evaluate in mere human terms. I believe the creative periods were thousands of years long, not 24 hour days. The Bible supports these assumptions.

Science says the universe and the world as we know it took billions of years to get this way, not thousands.

I have examined the Bible's explanation for the human condition and found it to be valid as well. Based on its accuracy so far, I don't question what it says about the future because the prophesy of the end times is unfolding all around us....The evidence is becoming more obvious every day as things in the world continue to spiral out of control. Personality traits in humans today reveal where we are in the stream of time. (2 Tim 3:1-5) And the sign Jesus gave to confirm this period before his return is plain for all to see. (Matt 24:2-14)

Vague passages from the bible that can be twisted by mental gymnastics to mean anything does not impress me. You are going to have to present specific predictions from the bible that have real, conclusive evidence to back up their validity.

What other explanation can you offer?.

About what? I am not the one making grandiose claims about an invisible being that has no evidence to support its existence. I merely except reality for what it is. All your religious claims are completely unsubstantiated.

Can I not ask you the same question? o_O

I view all unsubstantiated claims from all religions and beliefs systems with the same doubt. You take the unsubstantiated claims of your religion as truth and view the unsubstantiated claims of all other religions and belief systems with absolute certainty they are wrong. Which of us is more unbiased? I have asked you to provide evidence for your claims and you have said you cannot provide any. So in the end all you have is unsubstantiated claims.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Yes, your belief promotes false hope. I never said man is guaranteed to get his act together, I cannot predict the future. I said man is the only one who can fix things because there is no god who is going to do it for us. Therefore, promoting the mindset of sitting around looking to the skies, waiting for a mythical being to save us is dangerous.

Actually, sitting around waiting isn't what Christians are asked to do. If we are obeying the teachings of the Christ, then we will not be part of the problems in the first place. If all religions (Christian or otherwise) demonstrated respect for the environment and for their fellow man, imagine what the world would be like? We are instructed to work at making known God's purpose for this planet and for the living creatures who inhabit it....that isn't sitting around.

The world is not in this mess because of what Christians have done....but calling yourself a Christian whilst participating in the perpetuation of the rot is hypocrisy...is it not? Jesus condemned hypocrisy. Are we part of the problem or do we support the solution?

Mental illness and the fact that culture plays the biggest part in ones beliefs are glaringly obvious evidence against free will, and your belief system.

No it isn't. God isn't out to convert the world. He is looking for citizens who will enjoy life in his kingdom....one of the things that precludes entry is rebelliousness and disobedience to his laws. I'll let you do the math on that one.

Jesus commanded that the "good news" about his "kingdom" be "preached in "ALL the inhabited earth for a witness to ALL the nations" before he brought an "end" to the current system of things on earth. (Matt 24:14) That puts no one outside of God's ability to educate. No one can come to Jesus as a disciple without an invitation from the Father (John 6:44) so nothing will prevent a potential "sheep" from everlasting life, no matter what culture they were raised in. And because he reads hearts and not just minds, he can see past any mental illness to the real person. Don't sell him short.

Billions of people do not believe in your god, wasn't your god going to make himself known?

Making himself known doesn't mean that he drags people kicking and screaming into his kingdom. We are already told that these last days would see the good news largely preached to deaf ears. (2 Cor 4:3, 4)
Using the "days of Noah" as an example, was Jesus indicating that these billions were going to qualify for life? How many survived the flood? It wasn't that Noah didn't warn them...it was that they took no notice of the warning. (Matt 24:36-39) Whether you think the flood was real or metaphoric...we get the message.

Reality simply does not conform to your religions claims. If the bible stopped at just saying there was a god and he wanted us to get along it would be all good but it doesn't. It makes very specific claims that have been debunked, cannot be substantiated, and even contradict each other.

There is much detail that is not given about a lot of events in the Bible. The lack of detail does not mean that they never happened or that they can be ruled out because we cannot "prove" them using human methods. After all, if we could prove God's existence "scientifically" then we would not need "faith" which is a pre-requisite for God's people.

God has not told us anything. Men claiming to speak on god's behalf have had much to say. Unfounded faith is a worthless commodity I don't put any stock in.

I don't recall anyone standing over you with a big stick forcing you to believe anything. God offers his truth...no one is forced to accept it.

Science says the universe and the world as we know it took billions of years to get this way, not thousands.
The Bible does not argue with billions of years for the creation of the universe. The creative "days" were epochs of at least thousands of years each. Science agrees with the order of creation....life began in the oceans and the last creature to appear was man. We disagree about how it all happened is all. Evolutionary science is not exact, is it? It could all change tomorrow with another "discovery". Evolution does not discount the existence of a Creator in fact, yet if he was to appear tomorrow, it would change everything they believe.

Vague passages from the bible that can be twisted by mental gymnastics to mean anything does not impress me.
They aren't designed to impress anyone...they are designed to inform believers about what the Creator has done, and is doing.....and what he requires of them. Only those who are spiritual will be remotely interested. And even then, not many will use their spirituality in the right way.
God is actually sifting through the human race in order to populate this planet with those who care enough about him to obey his direction, and who demonstrate that they cannot be turned away by self interest.

You are going to have to present specific predictions from the bible that have real, conclusive evidence to back up their validity.
In Matt 24:3-14, Jesus apostles asked him for a sign when he would begin his rulership. The sign that Jesus gave to indicate that the "last days" had begun have been in evidence since 1914. (2 Tim 3:1-5) Everything that Jesus predicted has taken place just as he said. Believe it or not.

I am not the one making grandiose claims about an invisible being that has no evidence to support its existence. I merely except reality for what it is. All your religious claims are completely unsubstantiated.

Ever hear the old saying....."a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still"? This is a very true statement.
No one who does not want to believe, will, no matter how much information you give them.
God is not going to provide any more "evidence" that what is already under our noses. If he is not seeing an obedient heart, he will not issue an invitation into his kingdom. By our own choices, we either qualify or disqualify ourselves for life in his "new earth". (2 Pet 3:13) It isn't rocket science really.

I view all unsubstantiated claims from all religions and beliefs systems with the same doubt.

The Bible has a message for everyone who doubts.....

"But let him keep asking in faith, not doubting at all, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about. In fact, that man should not expect to receive anything from Jehovah; he is an indecisive man, unsteady in all his ways." (James 1:6-8)

You take the unsubstantiated claims of your religion as truth and view the unsubstantiated claims of all other religions and belief systems with absolute certainty they are wrong. Which of us is more unbiased? I have asked you to provide evidence for your claims and you have said you cannot provide any. So in the end all you have is unsubstantiated claims.

"Unsubstantiated" is a matter of definition. The Bible substantiates all that I believe and I am obligated to share those beliefs with anyone who might want to listen. Since "few" are on the road to life, it is important to find the exit ramp off the highway to death. (Matt 7:13, 14) Pointing the way is not standing there with a bazooka forcing people to detour.

We can enter the off ramp only by our own choice.
 
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Actually, sitting around waiting isn't what Christians are asked to do. If we are obeying the teachings of the Christ, then we will not be part of the problems in the first place. If all religions (Christian or otherwise) demonstrated respect for the environment and for their fellow man, imagine what the world would be like? We are instructed to work at making known God's purpose for this planet and for the living creatures who inhabit it....that isn't sitting around.

The biggest polluters on the planet are Christians though. Since Christians believe that the world is going to end no matter what, why should they care if it gets messed up? The global warming naysayers in the western world are typically right wingers.

The world is not in this mess because of what Christians have done....but calling yourself a Christian whilst participating in the perpetuation of the rot is hypocrisy...is it not? Jesus condemned hypocrisy. Are we part of the problem or do we support the solution?

I've met plenty of Christians who were not Christ-like, that's for sure. However, when did Christ say to give a hoot, don't pollute?

No it isn't. God isn't out to convert the world. He is looking for citizens who will enjoy life in his kingdom....one of the things that precludes entry is rebelliousness and disobedience to his laws. I'll let you do the math on that one.

So JW's run around knocking on peoples doors just for kicks?

Jesus commanded that the "good news" about his "kingdom" be "preached in "ALL the inhabited earth for a witness to ALL the nations" before he brought an "end" to the current system of things on earth. (Matt 24:14) That puts no one outside of God's ability to educate. No one can come to Jesus as a disciple without an invitation from the Father (John 6:44) so nothing will prevent a potential "sheep" from everlasting life, no matter what culture they were raised in. And because he reads hearts and not just minds, he can see past any mental illness to the real person. Don't sell him short.

Oh, so it is commanded to preach to everyone about your religion. Sounds like a massive conversion orientated plan to me. I never got why people need religion to "be saved". What is more important to god, whether a person is a good person at heart or if they are on their knees praising him?

Making himself known doesn't mean that he drags people kicking and screaming into his kingdom. We are already told that these last days would see the good news largely preached to deaf ears. (2 Cor 4:3, 4)
Using the "days of Noah" as an example, was Jesus indicating that these billions were going to qualify for life? How many survived the flood? It wasn't that Noah didn't warn them...it was that they took no notice of the warning. (Matt 24:36-39) Whether you think the flood was real or metaphoric...we get the message.

That's great but what if you're wrong. What if Hinduism is the right religion? Won't you feel silly for expecting to go to some magical paradise and are instead reincarnated as a fish or something?

There is much detail that is not given about a lot of events in the Bible. The lack of detail does not mean that they never happened or that they can be ruled out because we cannot "prove" them using human methods. After all, if we could prove God's existence "scientifically" then we would not need "faith" which is a pre-requisite for God's people.

Faith (believing) in unproven fantastical claims amounts to nothing more than gullibility. Why would god consider gullibility a virtue?

I don't recall anyone standing over you with a big stick forcing you to believe anything. God offers his truth...no one is forced to accept it.

Wrong, men speaking on THEIR gods behalf have offered many unsubstantiated fantastical claims. You have yet to show why the unsubstantiated fantastical claims of YOUR religion should be given anymore credibility than the unsubstantiated fantastical claims of ANY other religion/belief.


The Bible does not argue with billions of years for the creation of the universe. The creative "days" were epochs of at least thousands of years each. Science agrees with the order of creation....life began in the oceans and the last creature to appear was man. We disagree about how it all happened is all. Evolutionary science is not exact, is it? It could all change tomorrow with another "discovery". Evolution does not discount the existence of a Creator in fact, yet if he was to appear tomorrow, it would change everything they believe.

The bible claims the earth existed before the sun and stars which is definitely not supported by science. Science does not say man was the last animal to "appear". The bible claims mankind was created in gods image, not that we evolved from primates. So your holy books stories do not conform to reality.

They aren't designed to impress anyone...they are designed to inform believers about what the Creator has done, and is doing.....and what he requires of them. Only those who are spiritual will be remotely interested. And even then, not many will use their spirituality in the right way.
God is actually sifting through the human race in order to populate this planet with those who care enough about him to obey his direction, and who demonstrate that they cannot be turned away by self interest.

Man has worshipped many different gods for thousands of years who all had different expectations for mankind. Why should anyone give YOUR god anymore credibility than any other god that has existed?

In Matt 24:3-14, Jesus apostles asked him for a sign when he would begin his rulership. The sign that Jesus gave to indicate that the "last days" had begun have been in evidence since 1914. (2 Tim 3:1-5) Everything that Jesus predicted has taken place just as he said. Believe it or not.

1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

This is supposed to be a sign? Hey guys, when the end times come people are going to be real jerks, so watch out. Extremely vague and easily used to demonize those that don't share your beliefs. Gotta watch out for those worldly folk, they're the worst!

Ever hear the old saying....."a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still"? This is a very true statement.
No one who does not want to believe, will, no matter how much information you give them.
God is not going to provide any more "evidence" that what is already under our noses. If he is not seeing an obedient heart, he will not issue an invitation into his kingdom. By our own choices, we either qualify or disqualify ourselves for life in his "new earth". (2 Pet 3:13) It isn't rocket science really.

What evidence?! THEISTS (not god, I've never met or seen a god) have yet to provide ANY EVIDENCE to support THEIR CLAIMS. You have yet to provide either a convincing argument or evidence that YOUR god even exists. So far your argument amounts to "you just have to belief".



The Bible has a message for everyone who doubts.....

"But let him keep asking in faith, not doubting at all, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about. In fact, that man should not expect to receive anything from Jehovah; he is an indecisive man, unsteady in all his ways." (James 1:6-8)

Why do you think presenting a verse that tries to paint mindless, unthinking belief in unproven claims as a virtue and vilifies people who demand fantastic claims be validated before belief to an atheist is a good idea? What is so great about faith? Is faith still awesome when someone has it for another god/s?

"Unsubstantiated" is a matter of definition. The Bible substantiates all that I believe and I am obligated to share those beliefs with anyone who might want to listen. Since "few" are on the road to life, it is important to find the exit ramp off the highway to death. (Matt 7:13, 14) Pointing the way is not standing there with a bazooka forcing people to detour.

We can enter the off ramp only by our own choice.

I've shown you once in this post that the bible does not reflect reality. Who said anything about bazooka's? You speak from a mindset that it is obvious that your religions claims are true. I do not share your mindset. I do not have a switch in my head I can turn on to believe any old thing someone tells me.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
Can I ask you what inspires the kind of confidence you are expressing here? What is the basis for your optimism that things in this world will get better...they are worsening by the day. :(

I think it may be because it will simply go out of fashion, out of style. People will get sick of living badly, they will get sick of the violence, the waste, and agonizing inefficiencies in economic and social systems. A lot of it has much to do with what we are doing right now as a people, we are increasing our powers of documentation and interconnection beyond the physiological. We can make a video recording of an event rather pass it down through the hearsay of an oral tradition. We can connect to each other using social media in a way that begins to simulate the lightning fast telepathy our separate minds fall short of. There are signs that we can build the warp engine that can get us out of here before we crash completely.

What do you believe is the problem that prevents humans from achieving good goals on a world scale so that we can have peace and share our resources instead of what we see right now? In all the various types of government that man has tried....which ones have been successful in providing what the people really need to have a peaceful and relatively trouble-free life, without it deteriorating into a constant dog fight within the factions that govern?

Our achievement of harmony within our advanced primate paradigm is eventually going to have involve a recognition of what we are. Advanced primates who are apparently bestowed with the care taking of the earth, regardless of what science or religion says. We are the top story in town. Sure we have the setback of being primates, and primates are shown to squabble and fight, to develop crude hierarchies. We must show that we are better and more refined than that. We understand greater than any mouse or cat. We can build more than any bird or ant. We can tame even plants and topple mountains. It's time for us to look at the greater picture.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
I think it may be because it will simply go out of fashion, out of style. People will get sick of living badly, they will get sick of the violence, the waste, and agonizing inefficiencies in economic and social systems. A lot of it has much to do with what we are doing right now as a people, we are increasing our powers of documentation and interconnection beyond the physiological. We can make a video recording of an event rather pass it down through the hearsay of an oral tradition. We can connect to each other using social media in a way that begins to simulate the lightning fast telepathy our separate minds fall short of. There are signs that we can build the warp engine that can get us out of here before we crash completely.

The Trekkies are not real you know.....o_O Who will build this "warp engine" before we crash completely? I'm not terribly confident in man's track record so far.

It is apparent that all the world powers think fixing up the problems is someone else's job. Like cleaning up all the pollution in the Pacific.....who is putting up their hand to do that? We all contributed, so shouldn't we collectively get in and do what needs to be done? Right now? By the time they agree on how and who can tackle the problem, it will have grown ten fold! :eek:

We aren't good at cleaning up after ourselves...are we? I think humans need a big smack...and the Father is about to administer it.

Our achievement of harmony within our advanced primate paradigm is eventually going to have involve a recognition of what we are. Advanced primates who are apparently bestowed with the care taking of the earth, regardless of what science or religion says. We are the top story in town. Sure we have the setback of being primates, and primates are shown to squabble and fight, to develop crude hierarchies. We must show that we are better and more refined than that. We understand greater than any mouse or cat. We can build more than any bird or ant. We can tame even plants and topple mountains. It's time for us to look at the greater picture.

Perhaps that has been the problem all along? Maybe because we see ourselves as animals and not as superior beings who can take responsibility for the job assigned (i.e. being caretakers of the planet) It is interesting that you say this assignment was "bestowed" on man....who do you believe gave them the assignment?

If you look at what the first humans were really told to do, it went much further than just being caretakers. :)
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
The Trekkies are not real you know.....o_O Who will build this "warp engine" before we crash completely? I'm not terribly confident in man's track record so far.

That was just a metaphor.

It is apparent that all the world powers think fixing up the problems is someone else's job. Like cleaning up all the pollution in the Pacific.....who is putting up their hand to do that? We all contributed, so shouldn't we collectively get in and do what needs to be done? Right now? By the time they agree on how and who can tackle the problem, it will have grown ten fold! :eek:

Pretty soon we'll have to come to an existential point of no longer perceiving each other as 'someone else.' And when the earth gets sick from these unhealthy habits, we will have to come together. We have to overcome the proud primate in us, the animal in us, and break this clannish international bearing of teeth. The only one who can clean up the pacific pollution is us. This is either sink or swim. Even if a powerful extraterrestrial should come that could help, I think they should not. Either we can float the earth boat, or no one should do it for us.

Perhaps that has been the problem all along? Maybe because we see ourselves as animals and not as superior beings who can take responsibility for the job assigned (i.e. being caretakers of the planet) It is interesting that you say this assignment was "bestowed" on man....who do you believe gave them the assignment?

If you look at what the first humans were really told to do, it went much further than just being caretakers. :)

Up from the bones of the earth sprouted the first crude life. Lurching up from the ocean and becoming land bound, it gave rise to many indigenous phyla of whom the little furry egg-stealing critters made headway. And it was such that of all the mega-fauna none was to master the little monkey with the good throwing arm. And so, gaining the throne on this earth and taming it somewhat, we also gained vast new responsibilities, perhaps unanticipated. Gaia herself sees us now in her minds eye, and tests us in the crucible. Can we preserve the ocean? Can we watch over the earth's biomes? Can we steer away from all the disasters we might incur, can we use the lever of inherent natural energies to achieve greater comfort? If not, Gaia will recast her dice.
 
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