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What if atheists had a missionary service?

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
This argument irritates me, though. This idea that, unless you are taking the Bible in its entirety, you must be picking and choosing based on personal preference. This is an absolutely ludicrous assumption, and pretty disrespectful at that. Many thinking Christians see the Bible for what it is ... a book written thousands of years ago by men with a great deal less understanding about the physical world and societies in general. To disregard the immense differences in culture is to believe without reason, which, imho, is the definition of evil.

That is an interesting take on things....but really, the Bible is God's only communication with humankind.

What is the cause of your irritation? Isn't it because humans don't like to be told what to do and are constantly looking for loopholes in the law to excuse their behaviour?

Have you never wondered why God needed to have a written record of his dealings with just one people?
Were those people especially righteous? Or was the opposite true?

The Bible is a book about God's dealings with human beings...with all their imperfections and flaws.
The law given to Israel was a constant source of irritation to them...why? Because no one could keep it perfectly. So why give humans a set of laws that was impossible to uphold? The Bible says it was to remind them of their need of a savior. Without the benefit of the sacrifices made in supplication for forgiveness of their transgressions, there was no hope.

It was a record of how God interacted with this selected nation when they had his laws to govern every facet of their lives.....what happened to them when they were faithful....and how God responded to them when they weren't. Their lives were a contrast to those nations who did not have Yahweh as their God.

It isn't that God expected them to be perfect, but it was to keep them humble, so as not to ever think that anyone was above the law, or to adopt the attitude that the law was too hard so it excused them from even trying to keep it.
The temporary sacrifices offered week to week, pointed forward to the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus Christ, who would eliminate the need for animals sacrifice and liberate people from the "curse" of the law.

When I spoke about those who wish to pick and choose, I used the example of marriage and divorce as a common deviation from the teachings of Jesus. Humans have no right to overturn the teachings of the Christ to suit their own sinful conduct. Marriage is a sacred union, of which Jesus said "what God has yoked together, let no man put apart". "Till death do us part" was the scriptural principle for marriage. Only unfaithfulness on the part of a marriage mate could free someone to remarry. Who in the churches today, uphold Jesus' teaching in this matter? Who takes this seriously? Since the laws of the land now make divorce simple, does this mean that God's law is invalidated?

What about another teaching of Jesus....to 'love your enemies and pray for those who persecute us'? He said 'if your enemy is hungry, feed him and if he is thirsty, give him a drink'....where does he ever teach that it is OK to kill our enemies? Yet the churches are at the forefront of supporting the military of their nations in their political conflicts, even with nations who also profess the same beliefs? This was the situation in the last two World Wars....Catholic killed Carholic and Protestant killed Protestant....whose side was God on and whose prayers were heard by him? (Isa 1:15)

When it comes to obedience to God, all the men and women of faith mentioned in the Bible were outstanding. There is no room for compromise...especially when it comes to things that are not against the laws of the land.

The legalizing of same sex marriage carries no weight with God. It is a forbidden union, regardless of the emotional aspects of the issue. The legalisation is only giving them their nation's permission, and if "legal" recognition is all they want, then that is what they have achieved. It appears to have made them very happy. But you would have to rewrite the entire Bible to make homosexuality "scripturally legal" and it would require God's permission to do it. We don't have that.

When Jesus comes to judge the world and to separate the "sheep from the goats", he is not going to judge disobedient Christians well....he calls them "workers of lawlessness".....and in fact he said that "few" are on the cramped and narrow road to life, because the criteria he uses for judgment is not how good a Christian "they" thought they were, but whether they were "doing the will of the Father". (Matt 7:13, 14, 21-23)

You see human beings have a tendency to want to do their own will and to justify their way out of doing what God requires. We are very good at fooling ourselves apparently. This is why we need to understand what it means when Jesus says that the road to life is a difficult one. If it was easy, we would be on the other road...to destruction. :(
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
That is an interesting take on things....but really, the Bible is God's only communication with humankind.

What is the cause of your irritation? Isn't it because humans don't like to be told what to do and are constantly looking for loopholes in the law to excuse their behaviour?

Have you never wondered why God needed to have a written record of his dealings with just one people?
Were those people especially righteous? Or was the opposite true?

The Bible is a book about God's dealings with human beings...with all their imperfections and flaws.
The law given to Israel was a constant source of irritation to them...why? Because no one could keep it perfectly. So why give humans a set of laws that was impossible to uphold? The Bible says it was to remind them of their need of a savior. Without the benefit of the sacrifices made in supplication for forgiveness of their transgressions, there was no hope.

It was a record of how God interacted with this selected nation when they had his laws to govern every facet of their lives.....what happened to them when they were faithful....and how God responded to them when they weren't. Their lives were a contrast to those nations who did not have Yahweh as their God.

It isn't that God expected them to be perfect, but it was to keep them humble, so as not to ever think that anyone was above the law, or to adopt the attitude that the law was too hard so it excused them from even trying to keep it.
The temporary sacrifices offered week to week, pointed forward to the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus Christ, who would eliminate the need for animals sacrifice and liberate people from the "curse" of the law.

When I spoke about those who wish to pick and choose, I used the example of marriage and divorce as a common deviation from the teachings of Jesus. Humans have no right to overturn the teachings of the Christ to suit their own sinful conduct. Marriage is a sacred union, of which Jesus said "what God has yoked together, let no man put apart". "Till death do us part" was the scriptural principle for marriage. Only unfaithfulness on the part of a marriage mate could free someone to remarry. Who in the churches today, uphold Jesus' teaching in this matter? Who takes this seriously? Since the laws of the land now make divorce simple, does this mean that God's law is invalidated?

What about another teaching of Jesus....to 'love your enemies and pray for those who persecute us'? He said 'if your enemy is hungry, feed him and if he is thirsty, give him a drink'....where does he ever teach that it is OK to kill our enemies? Yet the churches are at the forefront of supporting the military of their nations in their political conflicts, even with nations who also profess the same beliefs? This was the situation in the last two World Wars....Catholic killed Carholic and Protestant killed Protestant....whose side was God on and whose prayers were heard by him? (Isa 1:15)

When it comes to obedience to God, all the men and women of faith mentioned in the Bible were outstanding. There is no room for compromise...especially when it comes to things that are not against the laws of the land.

The legalizing of same sex marriage carries no weight with God. It is a forbidden union, regardless of the emotional aspects of the issue. The legalisation is only giving them their nation's permission, and if "legal" recognition is all they want, then that is what they have achieved. It appears to have made them very happy. But you would have to rewrite the entire Bible to make homosexuality "scripturally legal" and it would require God's permission to do it. We don't have that.

When Jesus comes to judge the world and to separate the "sheep from the goats", he is not going to judge disobedient Christians well....he calls them "workers of lawlessness".....and in fact he said that "few" are on the cramped and narrow road to life, because the criteria he uses for judgment is not how good a Christian "they" thought they were, but whether they were "doing the will of the Father". (Matt 7:13, 14, 21-23)

You see human beings have a tendency to want to do their own will and to justify their way out of doing what God requires. We are very good at fooling ourselves apparently. This is why we need to understand what it means when Jesus says that the road to life is a difficult one. If it was easy, we would be on the other road...to destruction. :(
I'm in my car, so I can't respond to all of this. But, I have to say, you are displaying exactly what made me leave the Catholic Church. The fact that you have the audacity to assume that my intentions and my devotion are anything but pure simply because I look at a historical text critically and am realistic about the FACT that human participation automatically opens the door for deceit and error is not only unsubstantiated in the least, but also insulting. Don't be one of those "World of Warcraft guys" that assumes to be able to read a person accurately with nothing more than comments on a debate forum to go on. This is not the place to "fight for christ". It is the place to explore the underlying subconscious emotions that we hold and fail to recognize.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
I'm in my car, so I can't respond to all of this. But, I have to say, you are displaying exactly what made me leave the Catholic Church. The fact that you have the audacity to assume that my intentions and my devotion are anything but pure simply because I look at a historical text critically and am realistic about the FACT that human participation automatically opens the door for deceit and error is not only unsubstantiated in the least, but also insulting. Don't be one of those "World of Warcraft guys" that assumes to be able to read a person accurately with nothing more than comments on a debate forum to go on. This is not the place to "fight for christ". It is the place to explore the underlying subconscious emotions that we hold and fail to recognize.

I was not assuming anything about you personally, but was generalising. The fact that you applied it personally is your interpretation of what I said. I asked why you were irritated and then told you why humans in general cannot seem to keep to Jesus' commands. Why are you on the defensive?
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
I was not assuming anything about you personally, but was generalising. The fact that you applied it personally is your interpretation of what I said. I asked why you were irritated and then told you why humans in general cannot seem to keep to Jesus' commands. Why are you on the defensive?
Sorry. I've just been accused of "picking and choosing" according to what is easy too many times on this site I guess. I sincerely apologize.

In response, I take pride in my scrutiny of the bible. It was many books written by unknown authors thousands of years ago who had a much more primitive understanding of reality. I feel like failing to recognize this is to abandon reason, which I really do think is God's greatest gift.

For starters, I don't give a bit of credence to Paul, as I don't buy his story of seeing the resurrected Christ in a "vision" that left him trembling alone in the street. No one else with him saw it. It's just too convenient to ignore. And Paul had a lot to gain by fabricating his authority.
 
How many thousands of years do you think it will take for man to show some improvement in his attitude towards his fellow man and towards the planet itself?

If I had magic powers to predict the future I'd have more important and interesting things to do right now than posting in this forum.

As man has "progressed" in his knowledge of the world around him, has he shown any interest in fixing the damaged he's caused? Do his actions speak louder than his words?
There is talk about a lot of things...but when does it progress past the rhetoric?

Edward Jenner who introduced vaccinations to the world which has since saved billions of lives.
Norman Borlaug whose work in genetics and agriculture is said to have saved a billion lives.
James Harrison whose blood is credited for saving the lives of over 2 million babies.

There are plenty of extraordinary people who have done great things, are doing great things, or will do great things. However it seems you are only interested in condemning the world. Kind of sad really.

Humanity has given me no cause to trust them. The whole reason I became a JW was because I could see nothing good in the future of left up to man. God didnt make me feel hopeless, it was humans who constantly contributed to the growing problems by not implementing the necessary programs that will enable any real change.
Religion in general offered no solutions nor any explanations about why we are here and what purpose was served by God's permission of evil.
I am a person who needs explanations, so I did not rest until I found them.

You found something that gave you comfort. In my experience JW's are the most Christ like Christians I've met. However, your beliefs seem to center around fear which is not healthy.

Where has man's fight for freedom landed him? He is free to rape the earth and squander its resources, adding to the pollution, whilst making noises about things improving....but where are the improvements?

Huge advances in medicine. Easier access to information and education. The ability to communicate and travel across the world, which comes in handy when a disaster happens and multiple countries send manpower, doctors, and supplies to help.

When someone invented electric cars decades ago, their manufacture threatened the livelihood of the oil companies, so they were hauled off the market and trashed for scrap metal. Their polluting counterparts are still contributing to the fouling of the atmosphere all these decades later.....and you want me to put my trust in these people? Seriously?

Even today we still lack good enough batteries to travel very far. You won't be taking any family road trips in an electric car. Secondly, a point that I think most people overlook, is that even if we have electric cars the power for them will still be coming from generators burning coal. Less cars polluting but more coal being burned. All that is changed is where the pollution is taking place. When the technology catches up, the same people who own the oil will own the tech for electric cars. They will still be rich.


At least I have a hope to temper the hopelessness of the world's present condition.
When my God does act, my life will change dramatically and so will yours. Whose position would you rather be in?

Sorry but until your god shows up (which he won't) I'll take him just as seriously as I do Ra, Zeus, Odin, and the flying spaghetti monster.

The last time God fed the hungry? Today. Did you eat today? Did the rain make crops grow? Did the sun do its job of photosynthesis? Did the insects do their part in pollinating the flowers so that farmers could harvest edible produce?

Even if it is somehow proven someday that some kind of divine agent is necessary for these things to exist and function as they do that still wouldn't validate YOUR god concept.

What little we could accomplish as individuals would not fix even a tiny fraction of what ails this world. The problems run too deep and the progress we have made in some areas pales into insignificance when we compare it to the damage we have done through our so-called "advancenment" and "progress".

There is no supernatural safety net waiting to catch us. Humanity will sink or swim on its own. If we fail to adapt and overcome what is thrown at us then perhaps our fossils will join those of dinosaurs in a future sentient species museum.

There is only one true religion on this earth and it's the only one God recognises. His adversary has planted a bunch of counterfeits so that people will be misled, but God is confident that his sheep will hear the voice of the shepherd he has sent to lead them to life. We can be among them.

Your religion is but one of many that has been fabricated by MAN.

It says a lot really.....the fact that he tolerates the level of evil that exists up to the present is a testimony to his patience.

No, logically the lack of any divine interference in our affairs is evidence against the existence of any merciful, loving, and caring god.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Sorry. I've just been accused of "picking and choosing" according to what is easy too many times on this site I guess. I sincerely apologize.

I know what it feels like to be hit one too many times. :confused:

In response, I take pride in my scrutiny of the bible.
I commend anyone for scrutiny, as the Beoreans were commended for checking the scriptures to see if the aposte's teachings matched what the scriptures taught. (Acts 17:10, 11) Having an overview of what the Jews believed and how it relates to Christ's teachings is important. Without that background knowledge, nothing makes sense. The Bible is one story from Genesis to Revelation. There is just one God and one son of God who was sent into the world to teach us how to worship the Father acceptably. (John 17:3)
He did not come to start a new religion, but to clean up the old one.

It was many books written by unknown authors thousands of years ago who had a much more primitive understanding of reality. I feel like failing to recognize this is to abandon reason, which I really do think is God's greatest gift.
Well, I see it well up on the list, but not on top. One first has to have something to reason on in order to use this faculty.
If we believe the Bible to be the word of God, preserved in its entirety from the beginning by him as instruction to his people, then why do we assume that he is powerless about the choice of its contents? If "ALL scripture is inspired of God" then we either accept it as such in its entirety or we don't accept any of it. (2 Tim 3:16, 17)

For starters, I don't give a bit of credence to Paul, as I don't buy his story of seeing the resurrected Christ in a "vision" that left him trembling alone in the street. No one else with him saw it. It's just too convenient to ignore. And Paul had a lot to gain by fabricating his authority.

Perhaps you have been listening to the wrong people?

Actually Paul was accompanied on the road to Damascus. He wasn't alone. There were witnesses to the event. Please read the account in Acts 9:1-22 and see how Saul became the apostle Paul.
Acts was written by Luke, not Paul. The other apostles did not reject him as an apostle, even though he was not one of the 12. All the apostles were personally instructed by Jesus Christ and Paul was no exception. After his conversion he went away and was not exclusively instructed by the other apostles, but received his instruction from Jesus personally. His assignment was a little different and his background equipped him to fulfil a special role in the gentile ministry. (Acts 22:6-21; 26:12-23)

Paul had nothing to gain by fabricating any authority for the simple reason that he had greater authority as an educated Pharisee. The Christians were a persecuted minority, so I don't know where you got that idea? Paul suffered more than all the others for his service to the Christian ministry. He actually had more to lose from a worldly point of view, but he saw the gain spiritually.

I believe you are doing Paul a grave disservice. :(
 
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JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Edward Jenner who introduced vaccinations to the world which has since saved billions of lives.
Norman Borlaug whose work in genetics and agriculture is said to have saved a billion lives.
James Harrison whose blood is credited for saving the lives of over 2 million babies.

And yet we are still dying from preventable diseases. Cancer, diabetes and heart disease are perpetuated by unhealthy lifestyles of people on a polluted planet who cannot even feed themselves anymore. They are drowning in garbage, eating garbage and watching garbage. All of that equals "garbage humans" with no hope because no one really cares about them.

The ones who do good are so outnumbered by the ones who don't...we can barely see the results in the overall picture. That is just the reality. Why do you try to hide the facts?

Have you seen what the obesity epidemic is doing to people in affluent countries? We are digging a grave with our teeth and our governments are allowing it to happen because they gain something from the people who produce the garbage that is fed to us. It amounts to culling of the population who are not smart enough to see what is being fed to them. As long as it tastes good....it can't be all bad. Right? :confused:


There are plenty of extraordinary people who have done great things, are doing great things, or will do great things. However it seems you are only interested in condemning the world. Kind of sad really.
No! What is sad is that you ignore the tsunami to draw attention to a ripple in the ocean.

The tsunami will kill you and everyone else but you are too busy pointing to the man selling the "floaties" !
What good will the floaties do in a tsunami? We are all drowning in the aftermath of greedy human commercialism. The altruism of selfless individuals is commendable...but it is a drop in the ocean.

You found something that gave you comfort.
No I found something that gave me reasons. That is more important to me than comfort. I can live without comfort but I cannot accept anything without being able to reason it out and examine it critically.

In my experience JW's are the most Christ like Christians I've met. However, your beliefs seem to center around fear which is not healthy.
Fear of what? I have no fear of the future now, thanks to the Bible's hope. It is not dependent upon the actions of men, but on the promises of the only one who can actually deliver what he promises.

Huge advances in medicine. Easier access to information and education. The ability to communicate and travel across the world, which comes in handy when a disaster happens and multiple countries send manpower, doctors, and supplies to help.
Again, compared to the tsunami, it is a ripple in the ocean. Why do you think burn out happens so readily in aid agency workers? The problems are bigger than their capacity to help. They are overwhelmed by the tsunami.
You might want to gloss over the reality, but there is no escaping it.

Even today we still lack good enough batteries to travel very far. You won't be taking any family road trips in an electric car.


I watched this documentary some time ago and there was a man who had invented a long lasting battery for these cars who expected the world to beat a path to his door....he died waiting.

Secondly, a point that I think most people overlook, is that even if we have electric cars the power for them will still be coming from generators burning coal. Less cars polluting but more coal being burned.

There are alternatives for coal burning power stations. Solar power can be installed on the rooves of houses generating enough energy to charge their battery for everyday running around. The Toyota Prius is a good hybrid. Retailing at around $36,000 Aust. So what is the problem really? What prevents all cars from being hybrid? $$$$$$$

All that is changed is where the pollution is taking place. When the technology catches up, the same people who own the oil will own the tech for electric cars. They will still be rich.
You are not wrong. When the designs for amazing engines that do not require fuel disappeared into thin air...where do you suppose they ended up? As long as oil is in the ground, they will milk it until it runs out, then they will roll out their designs for the electric cars.

Advances in solar produced energy will make sure that their profits are maintained.

Sorry but until your god shows up (which he won't) I'll take him just as seriously as I do Ra, Zeus, Odin, and the flying spaghetti monster.
You say that with such certainty....perhaps the Creator has no need of those who have no need of him.
We shall see I guess, won't we? There is much at stake though.

Even if it is somehow proven someday that some kind of divine agent is necessary for these things to exist and function as they do that still wouldn't validate YOUR god concept.

I don't think you have any idea what MY "God concept" is. I would like to enlighten you. :)

There is no supernatural safety net waiting to catch us. Humanity will sink or swim on its own. If we fail to adapt and overcome what is thrown at us then perhaps our fossils will join those of dinosaurs in a future sentient species museum.

Perhaps they will. :( The question is....do they have to? Could there be something more to this story that is not obvious to you?

Your religion is but one of many that has been fabricated by MAN.

How do you know that?

No, logically the lack of any divine interference in our affairs is evidence against the existence of any merciful, loving, and caring god.

Unless of course, he has reasons for this situation that you are not aware of....? Perhaps the reason for the delay is because he is so merciful, loving and caring? How would you know if you never investigate?

The buried treasure is further down and requires more effort to bring to the surface. Only those who put in the effort get the reward. Gold miners and opal miners know this. We humans are incentive oriented creatures, so unless there is an incentive for our efforts, we will will not even bother trying. Pity.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You are not wrong. When the designs for amazing engines that do not require fuel disappeared into thin air...where do you suppose they ended up? As long as oil is in the ground, they will milk it until it runs out, then they will roll out their designs for the electric cars.
This is one of my favorite conspiracy theories.
Ordinary conspiracy theories are at least remotely plausible, but this one
runs smack into the 1st Law Of Thermodynamics (aka "No free lunch").
There are plenty of amazing engine designs out there.
(They're impossible to suppress, so they all compete in the market.)
But they all require an energy source.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
This is one of my favorite conspiracy theories.
Ordinary conspiracy theories are at least remotely plausible,

The thing about conspiracy theories is that the real ones get lost in the forest of fakes. (How do you hide a 40' tree out in the middle of a cleared field? You plant a forest around it so the original tree gets lost) It's an old trick.

but this one runs smack into the 1st Law Of Thermodynamics (aka "No free lunch").
There are plenty of amazing engine designs out there.
(They're impossible to suppress, so they all compete in the market.)

Impossible? I don't think so. If they are offered a substantial sum for their design, are they going to say no? Who can't be bought for the right amount? They are human after all and the oil giants have enormous resources.

But they all require an energy source.

What if the energy source is not a fossil fuel? Solar energy does not pollute the planet. It's free from the sun. (Concentrated solar energy generators are looking very promising)
I have solar panels on my roof and it powers all my appliances through the day. They are working on a battery system for smaller solar units like mine to store the energy that is not used to power appliances after dark. At present, we feed the excess power we generate back into the grid, but the energy company charges us many times the amount they pay us, to give it back. Not exactly an equitable system. :confused:

With the electric car....why trash a perfectly good unpolluting vehicle decades ago just because it didn't gobble up petroleum based fuel?
GM killed the electric car for its own selfish reasons. The oil giants are very powerful.

Bio-fuels like ethanol are being used but only to dilute polluting fossil fuels at present. The problem with that is that crops used for human consumption are being sacrificed for the manufacture of fuel, leading to food shortages in an ever increasing and hungry world.

Discarded cooking oil could also be recycled, but the personal manufacture of diesel fuel from used cooking oil is discouraged for obvious reasons. The government was talking about imposing a tax on it here in Australia, where fuel is very expensive.

A friend of mine used to make his own bio-fuel in his garage. He gleaned his oil from the local take-away. When he took off, all we could smell was fish and chips! :)
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The thing about conspiracy theories is that the real ones get lost in the forest of fakes. (How do you hide a 40' tree out in the middle of a cleared field? You plant a forest around it so the original tree gets lost) It's an old trick.
There's an impracticality with that approach though...a new forest would require much time to hide a tree of that size.
Impossible? I don't think so. If they are offered a substantial sum for their design, are they going to say no? Who can't be bought for the right amount? They are human after all and the oil giants have enormous resources.
The impossibility lies in the fact that others (beyond the reach of the conspirators) would independently discover the technology.
Consider that there have been revolutionary technologies which turned out to have been roughly simultaneously invented by others, eg....
Rudolph Diesel & Herbert Akroyd Stuart
Nkolaus Otto & Alphonse Beau de Rochas
The oil giants typically tagged with such conspiracies can't suppress technologies from China, N Korea, India, Russia or many other places capable of inventing novel engines.
What if the energy source is not a fossil fuel? Solar energy does not pollute the planet. It's free from the sun. (Concentrated solar energy generators are looking very promising)
I have solar panels on my roof and it powers all my appliances through the day. They are working on a battery system for smaller solar units like mine to store the energy that is not used to power appliances after dark. At present, we feed the excess power we generate back into the grid, but the energy company charges us many times the amount they pay us, to give it back. Not exactly an equitable system. :confused:
Solar power just doesn't supply much power yet.
(It's not cost effective in most places where the utility grid serves us.)
Until it's economically competitive & capable of the massive volume required, we'll be burning fossil fuels.
With the electric car....why trash a perfectly good unpolluting vehicle decades ago just because it didn't gobble up petroleum based fuel?
GM killed the electric car for its own selfish reasons. The oil giants are very powerful.
GM killed the car for other reasons.
The conspiracy theories are bunk.
It was a lousy car when one looks at all aspects of it.
(Btw, I once worked at GM with electric vehicle folk.)

If Big Oil had the desire & the power to kill cars running on alternative power designs, why did they kill that electric car, but allow the Prius, the Volt, Tesla & other hybrids/electrics on the market? Moreover, Big Oil failed to keep better IC engine technologies off the market, eg, higher compression ratios, turbocharging, electronic ignition, Atkinson cycle emulation, variable valve timing, high efficiency automatic transmissions, etc. The conspiracy theory falls apart in light of these successes.
Bio-fuels like ethanol are being used but only to dilute polluting fossil fuels at present. The problem with that is that crops used for human consumption are being sacrificed for the manufacture of fuel, leading to food shortages in an ever increasing and hungry world.
Discarded cooking oil could also be recycled, but the personal manufacture of diesel fuel from used cooking oil is discouraged for obvious reasons. The government was talking about imposing a tax on it here in Australia, where fuel is very expensive.
A friend of mine used to make his own bio-fuel in his garage. He gleaned his oil from the local take-away. When he took off, all we could smell was fish and chips! :)
Bio-diesel is already under development, but it is small scale & not without problems.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
There's an impracticality with that approach though...a new forest would require much time to hide a tree of that size.

It was metaphoric. :confused: When used with the growth of religion....the analogy works well.

Try choosing an apple in a barrel full of delicious looking fruit...but only one is a real apple...can you pick it by its appearance alone? You aren't allowed to take a bite to test it because that would spoil the overall look of the fruit barrel...so how do you pick the real one?

Counterfeits are very clever nowadays; so clever in fact that it is hard for experts to detect them without elaborate testing with technology....the naked eye is no longer reliable. No propaganda offered by those with a vested interest in something is reliable. It is designed for "perception management" of the masses and we are all victims of it. Knowledge is the power to see through propaganda. We need to stop swallowing what we are being fed via the media and educate ourselves about what is really going on in this world.

The impossibility lies in the fact that others (beyond the reach of the conspirators) would independently discover the technology.
Consider that there have been revolutionary technologies which turned out to have been roughly simultaneously invented by others, eg....
Rudolph Diesel & Herbert Akroyd Stuart
Nkolaus Otto & Alphonse Beau de Rochas
The oil giants typically tagged with such conspiracies can't suppress technologies from China, N Korea, India, Russia or many other places capable of inventing novel engines.

Ahhhh....nothing is beyond the reach of conspiracy theories. ;) The Bible speaks about a global conspiracy that permeates everything that takes place on this planet. Most people can't see it and don't believe it. We can't make them. But seeing how some industries operate deceptively behind the scenes, allows us to contemplate an even greater threat to our perception of things taking place in this world.

Solar power just doesn't supply much power yet.
(It's not cost effective in most places where the utility grid serves us.)
Until it's economically competitive & capable of the massive volume required, we'll be burning fossil fuels.

If every suburban house had a solar generated power system, no massive grid would be necessary for the everyday running of an average household. Stand alone solar power systems are providing all the power necessary to run rural properties in remote regions of Australia. They have a bank of batteries that store power for those times when there is little sunlight. It obviously doesn't allow for the wasteful use power that is seen today because of all the gadgets that we use, but it is certainly achievable even now, especially when finances are tight. My solar system has cut our power bills in half and will have paid for itself in a few years.

The scary thing about having every household dependent on the grid is that, if and when that grid goes down(whether as a deliberate act or due to a weather event or natural disaster) absolute chaos results. Unless we have an indepenfent power source, many people would not survive.
Self sufficiency is a thing of the past....so the more people depend on what is provided for them...the more they are held hostage to those services. Do you see a recipe for disaster in this?

GM killed the car for other reasons.
The conspiracy theories are bunk.
It was a lousy car when one looks at all aspects of it.
(Btw, I once worked at GM with electric vehicle folk.)

I believe that most people are treated like "mushrooms" and they don't even know it. Funny how the people who drove those cars were not allowed to purchase them. They could only lease them...why? When the leases ran out, the cars were confiscated and scrapped against the wishes of the ones who drove them and wanted to keep them....why?
(I believe only one was spared for a place in a museum) :rolleyes:

If Big Oil had the desire & the power to kill cars running on alternative power designs, why did they kill that electric car, but allow the Prius, the Volt, Tesla & other hybrids/electrics on the market? Moreover, Big Oil failed to keep better IC engine technologies off the market, eg, higher compression ratios, turbocharging, electronic ignition, Atkinson cycle emulation, variable valve timing, high efficiency automatic transmissions, etc. The conspiracy theory falls apart in light of these successes.

Does it? Reducing the consumption of fuel without eliminating it equalises itself out when you consider the ever increasing number of cars on the road every year. Fossil fuels are finite, so to keep profits ongoing into the future a profit margin is still maintained, whilst the manufacturers are seen to be doing something positive about the growing problems of air pollution.
In Australia, there is no "family car" anymore...everyone in the average income family, old enough to drive, has their own car. This situation was inconceivable 50 years ago.

Bio-diesel is already under development, but it is small scale & not without problems.

Do you think the cars and the fuels that keep them operating today are without problems?
Only when we have cars with zero emissions that do not run on fossil fuels at all, will we have no problems. o_O
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It was metaphoric. :confused: When used with the growth of religion....the analogy works well.

Try choosing an apple in a barrel full of delicious looking fruit...but only one is a real apple...can you pick it by its appearance alone? You aren't allowed to take a bite to test it because that would spoil the overall look of the fruit barrel...so how do you pick the real one?

Counterfeits are very clever nowadays; so clever in fact that it is hard for experts to detect them without elaborate testing with technology....the naked eye is no longer reliable. No propaganda offered by those with a vested interest in something is reliable. It is designed for "perception management" of the masses and we are all victims of it. Knowledge is the power to see through propaganda. We need to stop swallowing what we are being fed via the media and educate ourselves about what is really going on in this world.



Ahhhh....nothing is beyond the reach of conspiracy theories. ;) The Bible speaks about a global conspiracy that permeates everything that takes place on this planet. Most people can't see it and don't believe it. We can't make them. But seeing how some industries operate deceptively behind the scenes, allows us to contemplate an even greater threat to our perception of things taking place in this world.



If every suburban house had a solar generated power system, no massive grid would be necessary for the everyday running of an average household. Stand alone solar power systems are providing all the power necessary to run rural properties in remote regions of Australia. They have a bank of batteries that store power for those times when there is little sunlight. It obviously doesn't allow for the wasteful use power that is seen today because of all the gadgets that we use, but it is certainly achievable even now, especially when finances are tight. My solar system has cut our power bills in half and will have paid for itself in a few years.

The scary thing about having every household dependent on the grid is that, if and when that grid goes down(whether as a deliberate act or due to a weather event or natural disaster) absolute chaos results. Unless we have an indepenfent power source, many people would not survive.
Self sufficiency is a thing of the past....so the more people depend on what is provided for them...the more they are held hostage to those services. Do you see a recipe for disaster in this?



I believe that most people are treated like "mushrooms" and they don't even know it. Funny how the people who drove those cars were not allowed to purchase them. They could only lease them...why? When the leases ran out, the cars were confiscated and scrapped against the wishes of the ones who drove them and wanted to keep them....why?
(I believe only one was spared for a place in a museum) :rolleyes:



Does it? Reducing the consumption of fuel without eliminating it equalises itself out when you consider the ever increasing number of cars on the road every year. Fossil fuels are finite, so to keep profits ongoing into the future a profit margin is still maintained, whilst the manufacturers are seen to be doing something positive about the growing problems of air pollution.
In Australia, there is no "family car" anymore...everyone in the average income family, old enough to drive, has their own car. This situation was inconceivable 50 years ago.



Do you think the cars and the fuels that keep them operating today are without problems?
Only when we have cars with zero emissions that do not run on fossil fuels at all, will we have no problems. o_O
Conspiracy theories about engines & cars are just impossible to believe when one worked in the industry.
But then....I've been told I'm part of the conspiracy....both in the auto & defense industries.
Alien technology, engines which burn water.....it's all hokum.
 
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Jumi

Well-Known Member
It was metaphoric. :confused: When used with the growth of religion....the analogy works well.
There's the problem if there is a real tree hiding in there and if it's real how is it possible to hide something an omnipotent being put on display for "all to see". No religion comes close to being a monopoly.

Ahhhh....nothing is beyond the reach of conspiracy theories. ;) The Bible speaks about a global conspiracy that permeates everything that takes place on this planet. Most people can't see it and don't believe it. We can't make them. But seeing how some industries operate deceptively behind the scenes, allows us to contemplate an even greater threat to our perception of things taking place in this world.

Imagining some conspiracies that do not exist just based on biblical reasoning is one reason why I never could take certain Christian groups seriously. Like @Revoltingest said, once you've been inside industry(I haven't) or for some other reason such as knowing a person during the time they claim they were abducted or such when they were completely normal kind of destroys most of the conspiracies.

If every suburban house had a solar generated power system, no massive grid would be necessary for the everyday running of an average household. Stand alone solar power systems are providing all the power necessary to run rural properties in remote regions of Australia.
Do the solar panels appear out of thin air, require no maintenance or materials? People are working on making better solar panels. We'll see a large increase in their use.

This situation was inconceivable 50 years ago.
Much was inconcievable in the past. Science has changed our lives. We can now communicate from across the globe without a problem for low costs and we can do it daily. People are living longer lives and there's more us now.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I should note that I believe conspiracies do happen, eg, the Maastrict Treaty.
But the probability of a conspiracy's existence is inversely proportional to the product of....
- Length of duration of secrecy
- Number of people who must keep it secret
- Complexity
- Technological improbability
- Number of plausible alternative explanations for the symptoms leading to the theory
- Dependence upon governmental competence

I developed a formula (similar to the Drake equation) once for this.
I can't remember it now, but it looked really spiffy & pretentious.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Conspiracy theories about engines & cars are just impossible to believe when one worked in the industry.
But then....I've been told I'm part of the conspiracy....both in the auto & defense industries.
Alien technology, engines which burn water.....it's all hokum.

I've heard of an engine that runs on magnets...not so inconceivable really. Where do magnets get their power?

There is also a device that converts plastic back into oil so that it can be recycled whilst providing fuel. Still polluting, but converting one more deadly form of pollution (plastic wasted in the oceans that is destroying marine life and accused of causing human illness) into something reusable on a domestic scale, especially in poorer nations that are drowning in plastic waste. Who knows what is possible? We never get to hear of many of these things except via the internet.

The hokum is in the denial of their potential as far as I can see. If it isn't good for the economy, then it must be stopped....? Withheld? Withdrawn? Buried? Downplayed? Demonised? :(

Have you never noticed that all those "breakthroughs" in medicine that are touted as potential "cures" for disease, never really materialize? The carrot is dangled and then the 'discovery', which is the work of dedicated scientists, gets locked up in beurocracy, never to be heard of again....unless of course there is vast amounts of money to be made by those who put it financially out of the reach of the average person. Of all people, Americans know about the ridiculous cost of medicines and medical procedures. :eek:

Did you never wonder why cannibis is classified as a "dangerous drug" when there is not one recorded death by overdose anywhere in the world? The medicinal benefits of cannibis have been known for centuries. But it is such an effective drug when used to treat and cure disease, that drug companies have used propaganda to demonise it for decades. It is a harmless plant with many wonderful properties, but because some people use it recreationally and have gone on to other more damaging drug use, they singled out marijuana as the worst thing ever to hit mankind. What is ignored is that cigarettes and alcohol are just as likely to lead people into the abuse of other drugs...but both are perfectly legal. No one seems to make the connection that these are known to be more dangerous to a person's health than cannibis ever knew how to be. Are we getting the picture? It was never about our health and well-being...it was about profits.

Only now, because of the Internet can we see what medicinal cannibis can achieve for those suffering with epilepsy, other neurological disorders and various forms of cancer. The genie is out of the bottle and they can no longer keep this hidden. This one plant could revolutionise medicine, but it would put the drug companies out of business. There is no money in cures...only in "treatments".

Every advance made in supplying us with a product or service is really designed to force some kind of dependence on "the system". Self sufficiency is a long lost art. Did you not realise that everything we depend on for life is provided by someone else? Our water, our food, the electricity that powers our homes, the fuel that we use in our vehicles....what a powerful tool (or bargaining chip) in the hands of an enemy....or even someone masquerading as a friend. (2 Cor 11:13-15; 1 John 5:19)

Something is coming that will overturn everything in our lives. The Bible predicts that our forced dependence on the system will be used against us by a world government, given unprecedented power (absolute control) by all the nations in a desperate attempt to bring world peace. Having destroyed religion, (man's most divisive element) it will focus attention on control of everything and everyone. All freedoms will be lost. Some will welcome this measure as they will see it as the only way to stop the rot. Others will not. It will lead to the greatest tribulation in the history of mankind. (Matt 24:21)

Now there's a conspiracy for you.....o_O
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I've heard of an engine that runs on magnets...not so inconceivable really. Where do magnets get their power?
We call them "electric motors".
The run on electricity, which they can get from batteries, generators, etc.
There is also a device that converts plastic back into oil so that it can be recycled whilst providing fuel. Still polluting, but converting one more deadly form of pollution (plastic wasted in the oceans that is destroying marine life and accused of causing human illness) into something reusable on a domestic scale, especially in poorer nations that are drowning in plastic waste. Who knows what is possible? We never get to hear of many of these things except via the internet.
Of course, converting rubber, plastic & other materials to oil is done (& has been for some time), but it requires energy to change this form, & the resulting energy available to use was already present in the original material. This is pretty ordinary stuff, even though new techniques arise.
The hokum is in the denial of their potential as far as I can see. If it isn't good for the economy, then it must be stopped....? Withheld? Withdrawn? Buried? Downplayed? Demonised? :(
If something is bad for the economy, then I'd like to see strong justification for it.
We shouldn't just willy nilly do whatever is fashionable without regard to cost.
It reminds me of a local farmer's market which used taxpayer money to install solar cells some decade or so back.
They predicted a 100 year pay back period. But the cells only lasted 30 years.
Dumb....very dumb.

The reason for pursuing only economically viable technologies is that we'd quickly run out of money otherwise.
It makes more sense to spend it on things which give us the most bang for the buck.
That's not a conspiracy....that's individuals acting independently in their own best interest.
It's the reason you won't spend an extra $1000 on a furnace which saves you only $10 per year.
Instead, you'll spend $300 on LED light bulbs to save $200 per year....& they'll last far longer too.
(Note: Above examples use hypothetical numbers to illustrate the point.)
 
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No I found something that gave me reasons. That is more important to me than comfort. I can live without comfort but I cannot accept anything without being able to reason it out and examine it critically.

You found something that gave you comfort. If your theology didn't promise you that your god would swoop down to save you and make a paradise for you to life in forever you would have accepted a different religion that did. You can lie and say otherwise but lets be honest, JW's belief system revolves around fear about "getting accepted" by god at the end of the world to live on in a new fantastical one forever.
 
And yet we are still dying from preventable diseases. Cancer, diabetes and heart disease are perpetuated by unhealthy lifestyles of people on a polluted planet who cannot even feed themselves anymore. They are drowning in garbage, eating garbage and watching garbage. All of that equals "garbage humans" with no hope because no one really cares about them.

I always find it amusing how believers like you gloss over the idea that if your god created everything like you like to claim then he created disease, droughts, and poverty as well. The reality is we only have so many resources to go around and yet the bible tells people to pump out kids like there is no tomorrow. Does that really sound like wise advice when the world population is sitting at 7 billion already and we don't have enough resources to go around as is? The people I mentioned are doing REAL work in REALITY that your imaginary god cannot do that has saved billions of lives. Work that you have benefited from yourself. Yet the only response you can give is more hysterical pessimistic ranting based on nothing more than threats from your doomsday book (bible).
 
Fear of what? I have no fear of the future now, thanks to the Bible's hope. It is not dependent upon the actions of men, but on the promises of the only one who can actually deliver what he promises.

Fear of being thrown in the lake of fire. It's your doomsday book claiming the end of the world remember? I don't live in perpetual fear of an invisible mystical being ending the world, that's your belief system. My concerns involve things that actually exist.
 
I watched this documentary some time ago and there was a man who had invented a long lasting battery for these cars who expected the world to beat a path to his door....he died waiting.

Revoltingest already addressed this nonsense so I'm not going to waste more time on it.
 
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