What if atheists had a missionary service?

[lewisnotmiller]

Well, and here perhaps I'm making a trail into a whole new plot of woods, but literacy and education are relative on some level, perhaps. And that's kind of revealing of my own philosophical views that might be including kind of a liberal dose of relativity. You see, the enterprise of literacy is actually quite a new feature of human history, so as to suggest that this level of abstraction isn't all that integral to the generation of free thought. Its western manifestation or genesis might not have necessarily been codependent with the potential for human rationalization, as it seems to be something that actually may have sprung forth with some kind of unknown pre-exsisting rationalizing experience.

Hmm...that's an interesting point. I'll have to consider it. My immediate reaction is that it's much easier to convince people of things that are not purely rational in nature, but I don't really have much evidence or thought behind that.
Still, my 4 year old wanted to know where the world came from the other day, and it would have not only been faster, but also quite compelling (for her) if I told her it was created by some form of magic. She believes in unicorns, fairies and care bears at this point.

You know, I think you're probably right. In posing this question, I think I have come to the realization more firmly that an environment of freedom, complete freedom really, is the correct environment in which a human thinker may come to reason. For freely coming to reason is the only true way to truly come to reason. Does that make sense?

It not only makes sense, but is somewhat close to my own thoughts. I always reserved my utmost respect for those religious folk who helped the locals without any expectation or demand of conversion. Not to suggest that this is the 'best' way to go, but it seems to me they had enough trust in their own beliefs and examples to simply give practical help, and allow the locals to reach their own conclusions organically.

We the westerners have not so may hundreds of summers behind us in which were playing the cruel barbarian, the judge of witches and non-believers. What a horrible time that must have been to live in? Human suffering I feel should find a salve through the production of better history for ourselves. I think if we have shown anything, anything at all that is provable, it is that the human experience can ascend, even if marginally at first, up the stairs of better living.

I am convinced of this. I am very glad I had the experience, although it's not for everyone. I learnt a lot about what humans are capable of, much of it in a negative sense, and it gave me a better sense of humanity stripped back of it's Western trappings. Anyone telling you Western civilization is either 'good' or 'bad' is wrong, but on the balance of things there is plenty we are doing right. But where I think we are going wrong is in not sufficiently educating our populace on the important things in life. IN short, we lack philosophy to match our freedom.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

@ideogenous_mover

I pondered a little on the first point (from above).
I think a lot of the arguments or points you would be looking to make are reliant on prior education. It would be an ongoing process to teach people. Sure illiterate or uneducated people could be taught, after a fashion, but once you are past a certain point of complexity, you are getting the illusion of learning, rather than actual learning.

This is not necessarily a focused criticism, since I suspect many Westerners fall into the same boat. I can give a decent approximation of how a television works, but let's face it, I could never build one, and pick up a signal without expert help.
In some ways a television is a 'magic device' for me. But I think this point (information overload/specialisation) would be reached very quickly in some of the areas you would be active in (hypothetically). Basic medical procedures, irrigation, food handling would be as far as it got.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

ideogenous_mover:

I feel like I'm repeating myself, so I'll make one more attempt.

Rather than a point by point discussion of every point raised, let me try again to encapsulate.

For someone to hear the word "Christian, Druid, Wiccan, Atheist, Taoist, Buddhist, ......... " then assume that you know -- or are supposed to know -- everything you need to know about us is a grievous error.

It just doesn't work like that.

Human beings are greater than the sum of their parts.

 

[leibowde84]

I only ask this because I was checking out about half a dozen videos for people who went on mormon missions. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think they said they do it for like 2 years? Anyway, they all go as young people and seem to to have great adventures learning new languages, new cultures, and go all around the world. I guess I was listening mainly because some of them were great story tellers. However, their highly organized and effective style of missionary work got me thinking...

How come there is not a similar western organization to spread secular thought? Does anyone actually travel, learn new languages, and try spread science and reason? It seems like it just never had that kind of appeal to be able to really do that, or has it?

I think maybe part of the problem for atheists to get organized is that maybe they have stop branding themselves as atheists, (and this is just me responding to my own questions) and develop or re-develop terms for what they actually believe. Are you representing the nihilist, positivist, platonic, dualist, or humanist etc. school of thought? You'd have to bring an appealing moral system to the table. How do you approach science? Can old philosophical schools be resurrected so that the atheists can start choosing philosophies again?

The archetype of the messiah oftentimes draws so much from the archetype of the philosopher. Therefore, a philosopher of reason can compete with them, if they are a persuasive enough figure. The only thing they'd have to work on is a message that morally outweighs the message of all the religious figures, and people would start to follow it. Of course, this philosopher figure would have to be truly in line with the atheist planes of thought, no magic should be included.

I think the main difference you are overlooking is what Atheism actually is and why, as a result, there is no funding for missionary work as you describe it. "Atheism" is merely a lack of belief in the existence of God, so there are a great number of subcategories that hold very different beliefs, often contradictory to each other. Atheism, in its general form, does not make any declarative statement, so there is no opportunity for a moral code. But, one of the subcategories of Atheism, "humanism", does indeed provide this.

Check out the "Humanist Service Corps" and see how much great work has been done in the name of "humanism" and, to a lesser extent, "Atheism".

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Atheism, in its general form, does not make any declarative statement, so there is no opportunity for a moral code. But, one of the subcategories of Atheism, "humanism", does indeed provide this.

It seems to, yeah. Well, my arguments always going to be that saying you are an 'atheist' is the same as just saying as you are 'theist.' It is an incomplete way of labeling yourself. It might be more a symptom of it being something kind of newer. Well, they already started a process of differentiation by adding the prefix 'new' to some atheists, these 'new atheists' at least may have their description granted at least a small order of magnitude greater than simply just the atheists.

 

[paarsurrey]

Ah...I see.
Yes, I agree then. You'd have to go beyond atheism to have anything meaningful to say.

For me, secular/humanist work (non-religious, but can be contributed by both religious and non-religious) makes more sense than 'atheist missionaries'.

Doing good humanist work is part of truthful religion, not of the Atheism/Agnosticism/Skepticism.
Right?
Regards

 

[leibowde84]

Doing good humanist work is part of truthful religion, not of the Atheism/Agnosticism/Skepticism.
Right?
Regards

Humanism is secular, not religious. So it would most accurately be described as atheistic.

 

[paarsurrey]

Humanism is secular, not religious. So it would most accurately be described as atheistic.

Humanism is not under discussion here.
To serve humanity is part of the truthful religion; not of Atheism/Agnosticism/Skepticism.
Regards

 

[leibowde84]

Humanism is not under discussion here.
To serve humanity is part of the truthful religion; not of Atheism/Agnosticism/Skepticism.
Regards

Humanism does serve humanity. That is its stated purpose. It is secular. Thus, it stands to reason that, at the very least, serving humanity is not confined to being "part of the truthfully religion. Why would you think that it would be? There are many atheists who serve humanity very well.

 

[JayJayDee]

Humanism does serve humanity. That is its stated purpose. It is secular. Thus, it stands to reason that, at the very least, serving humanity is not confined to being "part of the truthfully religion. Why would you think that it would be? There are many atheists who serve humanity very well.

So is what drives humanitarianism more important than the works themselves? If we serve for God's interests or for the benefit of the human race generally...does it matter? I think that depends on your mindset.

People who serve humanity for the sake of it, usually run out of steam because of the sheer magnitude of the task and the never-ending need to provide ongoing services for those in dire need of their assistance. No matter how many people they help, there are many more added every day to their list, as nation after nation tries to cope with the aftermath of the horrid actions of other humans.....this leads to burn-out and a sense of hopelessness.

When people help others as a part of their service to God, they have hope that this effort is only temporary until God brings the solution to all of man's woes. This is the hope that the Bible holds out as a future situation, not just for the repair of humanity but for the regeneration of the entire planet. Atheists denigrate this hope, because of the time it is taking for this to come about.....but it is what keeps believers from burning out. They trust that God knows what he is doing and will bring about his promised solution in his own time and way.

Leaving that task to mankind is like putting a drug addict in charge of an opium den. Man's track record in solving the problems that lead to people needing humanitarian assistance in the first place is appalling. This is what cannot be addressed...therefore no solution seems ever possible.

If atheists had missionaries, what hope could they give to people of things ever improving? What positive thing could they offer as a hope for the future? Things are getting worse every day for those displaced by the horrors of their nation's political situation. Religion is being used as a a excuse for barbarianism in an age where such is inexcusable.

In this twenty first century, when knowledge and education has never been more important, and is more widely available than at any other time in history...we have no excuse for the ignorance that is overtaking humanity and sapping our ability to cope with it. We have the tools to make life better for all.....but something is preventing us from being able to use them.....what is that? Human self interest, both at a national level and a personal level.

The Bible predicts the future and says that things will get worse before God finally brings in the solution....what does atheism predict?

 

[leibowde84]

So is what drives humanitarianism more important than the works themselves? If we serve for God's interests or for the benefit of the human race generally...does it matter? I think that depends on your mindset.

People who serve humanity for the sake of it, usually run out of steam because of the sheer magnitude of the task and the never-ending need to provide ongoing services for those in dire need of their assistance. No matter how many people they help, there are many more added every day to their list, as nation after nation tries to cope with the aftermath of the horrid actions of other humans.....this leads to burn-out and a sense of hopelessness.

When people help others as a part of their service to God, they have hope that this effort is only temporary until God brings the solution to all of man's woes. This is the hope that the Bible holds out as a future situation, not just for the repair of humanity but for the regeneration of the entire planet. Atheists denigrate this hope, because of the time it is taking for this to come about.....but it is what keeps believers from burning out. They trust that God knows what he is doing and will bring about his promised solution in his own time and way.

Leaving that task to mankind is like putting a drug addict in charge of an opium den. Man's track record in solving the problems that lead to people needing humanitarian assistance in the first place is appalling. This is what cannot be addressed...therefore no solution seems ever possible.

If atheists had missionaries, what hope could they give to people of things ever improving? What positive thing could they offer as a hope for the future? Things are getting worse every day for those displaced by the horrors of their nation's political situation. Religion is being used as a a excuse for barbarianism in an age where such is inexcusable.

In this twenty first century, when knowledge and education has never been more important, and is more widely available than at any other time in history...we have no excuse for the ignorance that is overtaking humanity and sapping our ability to cope with it. We have the tools to make life better for all.....but something is preventing us from being able to use them.....what is that? Human self interest, both at a national level and a personal level.

The Bible predicts the future and says that things will get worse before God finally brings in the solution....what does atheism predict?

I think you are making a HUGE false assumption. I have never thought for a second that atheists would "burn-out" faster than theists when "serving humanity", and you are basing your view on an assumption not supported with evidence. Do you have any data or statistics that show that those with belief in an afterlife are more productive and don't "burn-out" as fast as those without supernatural beliefs? Because, without that, the assumption you are making is pretty insulting and disrespectful.

 

[JayJayDee]

I think you are making a HUGE false assumption. I have never thought for a second that atheists would "burn-out" faster than theists when "serving humanity", and you are basing your view on an assumption not supported with evidence. Do you have any data or statistics that show that those with belief in an afterlife are more productive and don't "burn-out" as fast as those without supernatural beliefs? Because, without that, the assumption you are making is pretty insulting and disrespectful.

I wasn't speaking about those with supernatural belief generally...I was speaking about Christian believers specifically.

Burn out among aid workers is widely recognized.

Dealing with aid worker burnout | Global Development Professionals Network | The Guardian

"Participants with strong social support networks were less likely to suffer negative mental health consequences from their deployment. Workers with strong social support networks were less likely to suffer from depression, psychological distress, or burnout related to PA, and they had higher levels of life satisfaction throughout their deployment. These findings lends scientific support for the recommendations that peer support networks are beneficial for aid workers during or after their deployment [3]."

PLOS ONE: Psychological Distress, Depression, Anxiety, and Burnout among International Humanitarian Aid Workers: A Longitudinal Study

Those who have strong social support networks are less likely to burn out. Those who work side by side with fellow believers as part of a team are already part of a strong social network to begin with. According to the above site, those who smoked and drank to excess also fared badly. Christians don't smoke or drink to excess. (If they do then must question their claim to be Christians) The evidence is there. Those who have emotional support fare better than those who do not. Those with a close relationship with God have 24/7 support from him and from fellow believers who offer constant encouragement to each other, based on their shared beliefs about the future.

From my personal experience, in the aid work conducted by JW's in times of disaster or crises, we take the position where we assist our own first and then offer assistance to others. If all religious institutions did this, then the numbers in need of assistance by government agencies would be drastically reduced.

 

[leibowde84]

I wasn't speaking about those with supernatural belief generally...I was speaking about Christian believers specifically.

Burn out among aid workers is widely recognized.

Dealing with aid worker burnout | Global Development Professionals Network | The Guardian

"Participants with strong social support networks were less likely to suffer negative mental health consequences from their deployment. Workers with strong social support networks were less likely to suffer from depression, psychological distress, or burnout related to PA, and they had higher levels of life satisfaction throughout their deployment. These findings lends scientific support for the recommendations that peer support networks are beneficial for aid workers during or after their deployment [3]."

PLOS ONE: Psychological Distress, Depression, Anxiety, and Burnout among International Humanitarian Aid Workers: A Longitudinal Study

Those who have strong social support networks are less likely to burn out. Those who work side by side with fellow believers as part of a team are already part of a strong social network to begin with. According to the above site, those who smoked and drank to excess also fared badly. Christians don't smoke or drink to excess. (If they do then must question their claim to be Christians) The evidence is there. Those who have emotional support fare better than those who do not. Those with a close relationship with God have 24/7 support from him and from fellow believers who offer constant encouragement to each other, based on their shared beliefs about the future.

From my personal experience, in the aid work conducted by JW's in times of disaster or crises, we take the position where we assist our own first and then offer assistance to others. If all religious institutions did this, then the numbers in need of assistance by government agencies would be drastically reduced.

Are you claiming that atheists cannot have support networks as strong or beneficial as believers are able to have? Because, from my own experience, there is no reason to think that. Your provided articles did not speak at all to believers being less likely to burn out or more likely to have good support networks. Why are you jumping to this conclusion?

 

[Revoltingest]

If we had sent missionaries, we would....
- Not tell Hawaiians to give up surfing.
- Not tell naked savages to put on clothing.
- Give them less reading material.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Doing good humanist work is part of truthful religion, not of the Atheism/Agnosticism/Skepticism.
Right?
Regards

No. Wrong.
Doing good humanist work is open to anyone willing to invest their time and/or money in helping others, at looking at things from the point of view of those others, and in providing what they actually need, rather than any sort of self-promoting ideology, be it religious or philosophical.

Brain-washing people whilst holding a potential new water supply as hostage is odious, regardless of message and intent.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Humanism is not under discussion here.
To serve humanity is part of the truthful religion; not of Atheism/Agnosticism/Skepticism.
Regards

The truthful religion, huh?
Something many agree with, and few actually AGREE with...lol

 

[lewisnotmiller]

The Bible predicts the future and says that things will get worse before God finally brings in the solution....what does atheism predict?

A lack of theism can't actually MAKE predictions.
Many atheists therefore use research and science to make their predictions. However, atheism, in and of itself, predicts nothing.

You're still doing that thing you do where you interweave non-specific evidence with a narrative construct, and throw in good old 'common sense' to make your case, you know?

 

[amorphous_constellation]

People who serve humanity for the sake of it, usually run out of steam because of the sheer magnitude of the task and the never-ending need to provide ongoing services for those in dire need of their assistance. No matter how many people they help, there are many more added every day to their list, as nation after nation tries to cope with the aftermath of the horrid actions of other humans.....this leads to burn-out and a sense of hopelessness.

When people help others as a part of their service to God, they have hope that this effort is only temporary until God brings the solution to all of man's woes. This is the hope that the Bible holds out as a future situation, not just for the repair of humanity but for the regeneration of the entire planet. Atheists denigrate this hope, because of the time it is taking for this to come about.....but it is what keeps believers from burning out. They trust that God knows what he is doing and will bring about his promised solution in his own time and way.

Well, with all respect to your view, and I'm not going to take effort to try and convert you from it, it isn't a view I could possibly see myself having at this point in my life. I just think that at the end of this tunnel the world is in, there is optimism. Many things aren't so great right now, but there's no reason I don't see why it can't eventually get better. To be metaphorical, yes this car is stuck in the mud, but yes I think we can push it out. We don't have to set up a permanent camp here. We can built better vehicles. We are the toolmakers, we can create the better tools to give us the better life. All we have to do is learn how to part the swamp we're in, and wouldn't hurt to have the charisma of a Moses here and there to guide us a little bit.

 

[JayJayDee]

Are you claiming that atheists cannot have support networks as strong or beneficial as believers are able to have? Because, from my own experience, there is no reason to think that. Your provided articles did not speak at all to believers being less likely to burn out or more likely to have good support networks. Why are you jumping to this conclusion?

No I do not think that those with atheistic views 'cannot' have support networks. What the data suggests is that those who fit the criteria for those less likely to experience burn out, fall into a category that more defines believers than not.

This is a generalisation only. Believers have hope that the situation is temporary, and will one day be rectified by a being who possesses the power to do something about it....whilst atheists have no reason to hope that the world will suddenly become more loving and caring about one another. They prove every day that they are incapable of making anything better. Self interest and abuse of free will is the underlying cause of all of humanity's problems....yet no one seems to see the elephant in the room. Removing the cause is so much more important than treating the symptoms.

Those who have freedom abuse it to the detriment of others and those who do not have freedom, blame the ones that do. It's a no win situation.

We all know that when we fail to learn the lessons from past mistakes we doomed to repeat them....we are still repeating them after all this time. We never learn! Why do you think that is?

 

[JFish123]

Yes, hi I'm with the atheists witnesses. We believe you have no true meaning or purpose in life, that sometimes bad things will happen without any meaning so you just have to suck it up, that when a loved one dies, you'll never see then again, and that your not special, just more evolved than a fish. Want to join? ... I have a pamphlet...