What if atheists had a missionary service?

[JayJayDee]

Well, with all respect to your view, and I'm not going to take effort to try and convert you from it, it isn't a view I could possibly see myself having at this point in my life. I just think that at the end of this tunnel the world is in, there is optimism. Many things aren't so great right now, but there's no reason I don't see why it can't eventually get better.

When someone is appointed to a task in any worldly setting and the outcome of their efforts is of great national or even international importance...what is the first thing people ask about this person? What is their track record? What have they done in their previous roles to inspire confidence in their ability to tackle this assignment?

Can I ask you what inspires the kind of confidence you are expressing here? What is the basis for your optimism that things in this world will get better...they are worsening by the day.

To be metaphorical, yes this car is stuck in the mud, but yes I think we can push it out. We don't have to set up a permanent camp here. We can built better vehicles. We are the toolmakers, we can create the better tools to give us the better life. All we have to do is learn how to part the swamp we're in, and wouldn't hurt to have the charisma of a Moses here and there to guide us a little bit.

Those with no hope of a leader like Moses are doomed to stay in the mud....or would quicksand be a better analogy?

We all have it within our power to make the world a better place....personally in our own families and neighbourhoods....nationally in our efforts to work together with those who share our culture.....and globally in our ability to show compassion and a willingness to help our less fortunate neighbours......what we lack is the ability to implement any of the "tools" we might make. Why?...because of self interest and abuse of free will.

Human beings are factional by nature. They are followers, not many are leaders, so if the leadership is flawed, a whole bunch of people are misled....they have no idea that they are part of the problem instead of being an important part of the solution. As long as racism, bigotry and extremism exist, and as long as humans continue to make stupid decisions that adversely affect others, nothing will change.

What do you believe is the problem that prevents humans from achieving good goals on a world scale so that we can have peace and share our resources instead of what we see right now? In all the various types of government that man has tried....which ones have been successful in providing what the people really need to have a peaceful and relatively trouble-free life, without it deteriorating into a constant dog fight within the factions that govern?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Yes, hi I'm with the atheists witnesses. We believe you have no true meaning or purpose in life, that sometimes bad things will happen without any meaning so you just have to suck it up, that when a loved one dies, you'll never see then again, and that your not special, just more evolved than a fish. Want to join? ... I have a pamphlet...

...and by the way, we want to help you build schools and hospitals and not churches for a foreign religion.

Meh...I'm generalising, but seems that's the way of things at the moment.

 

[leibowde84]

No I do not think that those with atheistic views 'cannot' have support networks. What the data suggests is that those who fit the criteria for those less likely to experience burn out, fall into a category that more defines believers than not.

This is a generalisation only. Believers have hope that the situation is temporary, and will one day be rectified by a being who possesses the power to do something about it....whilst atheists have no reason to hope that the world will suddenly become more loving and caring about one another. They prove every day that they are incapable of making anything better. Self interest and abuse of free will is the underlying cause of all of humanity's problems....yet no one seems to see the elephant in the room. Removing the cause is so much more important than treating the symptoms.

Those who have freedom abuse it to the detriment of others and those who do not have freedom, blame the ones that do. It's a no win situation.

We all know that when we fail to learn the lessons from past mistakes we doomed to repeat them....we are still repeating them after all this time. We never learn! Why do you think that is?

Honestly, I think, to a large degree, it is due to the unwillingness to progress and change caused by religious adherence. People cling to the teachings of their faith instead of dissecting them and trying, together with the best of intentions, to improve upon them. I think that the idea that the Bible, for example, is the "word of God" has prevented people from truly investigating the intent behind it, the historical implications inherent in it, and the FACT that we don't even know who wrote the majority of it. If we look at it for what we know it to be, the lessons won't be nearly as divisive.

 

[JayJayDee]

Honestly, I think, to a large degree, it is due to the unwillingness to progress and change caused by religious adherence.

"Unwillingness" is definitely a factor, as we can all see. But can you blame "religious adherence" for this situation? The unwillingness seems to be in the area of political unwillingness to adopt any stance that sacrifices self interest.
The first concern of governments seems to be "what's in it for us?" That has nothing to do with religion.

What part does the media play in forming the average person's opinions about what's happening in the world? Can we rely on a controlled media to tell us the truth? Some put as much faith in their politicians as others place in God. Propaganda works. And most western nations have leaders who profess a religious (Christian denomination) faith. Many of their houses of government are even opened with prayer as a matter of formality (rather than sincerity). The problems begin when these very governments implement actions that go contrary to the teaching they profess to believe. IOW, can we blame the religion if the ones who profess it believe in it, ignore its teachings when it suits their political agenda to do so? (This applies to all faiths equally)

People cling to the teachings of their faith instead of dissecting them and trying, together with the best of intentions, to improve upon them.

What part does religion play in how people live day to day? Do their religious beliefs contribute to a more peaceful life in their family and in their community? Then maybe we should ask how it impacts on them politically and dissect that.
Do any of them live up to the teachings they profess?

All the Abrahamic faiths accept the teachings of the prophet Moses. The Ten Commandments are then accepted by all those professing to believe in the God of Abraham......yet what part of "thou shalt not kill" do any of them adopt? Imagine what the world would be like if they did?

What about the "Golden Rule"? If the so called "Christian" nations implemented this one rule as a standard for all their conduct...again imagine what would result, even within their own borders. Would any be rich whilst others live a deprived uneducated life in squalor? If the money spent on taking lives was put into saving them, what would we see?
Could those governments go and drop bombs on another nation if they would not like the same done to them?

This is idealism I know, but who would not find the results appealing? Who is not sick and tired of the mismanagement of this earth and its population by the evil actions of badly motivated humans?

I don't see the religious beliefs of people as being the main source of the world's problems per se...what I see is the abuse and exploitation of people's religious beliefs being used by governments to encourage participation in actions that their religious tenets never teach. I see this in all situations on both sides of any conflict. Emotional manipulation is rife, but most people cannot see it. Fanaticism and nationalism, supported by emotionally charged religion is a powerful formula for continuing conflict...not peace. A peacekeeper in today's world carries an automatic weapon.

For those of us who live in the so called "free world", (where many are shedding religion in favor of a more secular life,) can we say that we have a superior form of government that tackles the important internal issues such as education, employment and health care? Again, what is the track record? If the governments of any nation can't provide for their own with success, why are they wasting valuable resources making war in someone else's country?
When you ask "what's in it for them?"....you can usually see the agenda. It has nothing to do with a nation's religious faith, even though that is promoted as the motivating force behind their actions. Justification is not the same as justice.

I think that the idea that the Bible, for example, is the "word of God" has prevented people from truly investigating the intent behind it, the historical implications inherent in it, and the FACT that we don't even know who wrote the majority of it. If we look at it for what we know it to be, the lessons won't be nearly as divisive.

Religious belief is inherent in humans. There is no getting away from it...we are spiritual beings. The expression of religious beliefs has sometimes seen abhorrent things committed in the name of some god. So I agree that not all religious beliefs are good and the "holy" writings that support their beliefs are interesting when you study them, but when we examine the humans who profess belief, we see them doing what humans do best....that is, to justify inhuman behavior and ignore the lessons behind the teachings they profess. That is pure hypocrisy...the very thing Jesus condemned in the leaders of his own nation.

When we examine what the Bible really teaches, (as opposed to what humans do in going against those teachings,) then we can see what the real problem is. It isn't what the Bible teaches that is to blame....it is the extent to which humans ignore those teachings when it suits them, that is responsible for the state of the world.

Let's put the blame where it lies...shall we? Unless humans can see their own part in causing the problem, nothing will change......unless the Creator steps in and rectifies the situation by force. This is actually what the Bible predicts. (Dan 2:44) This action will put a permanent halt to man's evil domination of this planet. That is my hope for the future. A world where everyone serves the same God and everyone abides by the Golden Rule.

 

[JustWondering]

When people help others as a part of their service to God, they have hope that this effort is only temporary until God brings the solution to all of man's woes. This is the hope that the Bible holds out as a future situation, not just for the repair of humanity but for the regeneration of the entire planet. Atheists denigrate this hope, because of the time it is taking for this to come about.....but it is what keeps believers from burning out. They trust that God knows what he is doing and will bring about his promised solution in his own time and way.

I find the above mindset very dangerous. In fact, the above mindset that god is going to fix everything for us someday promotes destructive behavior. After all, why care about reducing pollution and squandering our resources when the bible clearly says god is going to swoop in and save the day like superman after we screw everything up? The reality is that there is no god waiting in the clouds to save us from ourselves. We have to take full responsibility for our actions. The only utopia that will exist in the future is one we create for ourselves.

The Bible predicts the future and says that things will get worse before God finally brings in the solution....what does atheism predict?

Until you can prove that any prediction about a specific event/person made in the bible has ever come true (from unbiased, neutral sources) the predictions in the bible mean nothing. It is all a fantasy.

 

[JayJayDee]

I find the above mindset very dangerous. In fact, the above mindset that god is going to fix everything for us someday promotes destructive behavior. After all, why care about reducing pollution and squandering our resources when the bible clearly says god is going to swoop in and save the day like superman after we screw everything up?

I find the other position even more dangerous...the one where people not only engage in the destructive behaviors, but in full knowledge of the consequences, continue to promote the things they know are killing us, just to make money.

Knowing that there is no rescuer in sight....who is going to save humans from their own selfishness and stupidity?
What is the basis for confidence in man? How can man fix the problem, when man IS the problem?

Those with a consciousness toward God, respect for the planet, and who care about their fellow creatures, are often the ones seeking less destructive methods of living to begin with. The sheer magnitude of the problem however, means that their efforts are often like a drop in the ocean. Only a superior being with the necessary power and will can combat the evil that runs riot on this planet. We have already demonstrated our inability to stop it.

The reality is that there is no god waiting in the clouds to save us from ourselves.

That is your reality, not mine. The clouds are merely hiding what you cannot see.

We have to take full responsibility for our actions. The only utopia that will exist in the future is one we create for ourselves.

Should we hold our breath waiting for man to take responsibility and create this utopia? Man seems to be as tardy in rectifying his destructive behaviors as the atheists think God is in fixing things up.

What positive thing can you glean from man's track record to give you hope that human nature will ever change? In an age where education and knowledge is more abundant than at any other time in history.....why do we still have no wisdom? Why are we sinking further and further into the mire?

Is it a race to see who acts first, do you think? What if this is God's earth and he comes soon to evict the bad tenants?
Will you have grounds to fight the eviction? (Rev 11:18)

Until you can prove that any prediction about a specific event/person made in the bible has ever come true (from unbiased, neutral sources) the predictions in the bible mean nothing. It is all a fantasy.

We both know that there is no way to prove the existence of God to an unbeliever, except with what we see with our own eyes, and having confidence in our own evidence. You can choose to reject that evidence and accept you own. It doesn't alter what will occur in the future. By the time the Bible's prediction about the judgment comes true...it will be too late to change lanes. The road you are on now, will lead you to your future......it will be the one you chose of your own free will.

Pretending that God isn't there doesn't make him go away....and without him we have no hope for the future...just more of the same until we destroy Mother Earth and she stops providing for us.

I will pin my hopes on the power that put us here. You can please yourself.

 

[leibowde84]

"Unwillingness" is definitely a factor, as we can all see. But can you blame "religious adherence" for this situation? The unwillingness seems to be in the area of political unwillingness to adopt any stance that sacrifices self interest.
The first concern of governments seems to be "what's in it for us?" That has nothing to do with religion.

What part does the media play in forming the average person's opinions about what's happening in the world? Can we rely on a controlled media to tell us the truth? Some put as much faith in their politicians as others place in God. Propaganda works. And most western nations have leaders who profess a religious (Christian denomination) faith. Many of their houses of government are even opened with prayer as a matter of formality (rather than sincerity). The problems begin when these very governments implement actions that go contrary to the teaching they profess to believe. IOW, can we blame the religion if the ones who profess it believe in it, ignore its teachings when it suits their political agenda to do so? (This applies to all faiths equally)



What part does religion play in how people live day to day? Do their religious beliefs contribute to a more peaceful life in their family and in their community? Then maybe we should ask how it impacts on them politically and dissect that.
Do any of them live up to the teachings they profess?

All the Abrahamic faiths accept the teachings of the prophet Moses. The Ten Commandments are then accepted by all those professing to believe in the God of Abraham......yet what part of "thou shalt not kill" do any of them adopt? Imagine what the world would be like if they did?

What about the "Golden Rule"? If the so called "Christian" nations implemented this one rule as a standard for all their conduct...again imagine what would result, even within their own borders. Would any be rich whilst others live a deprived uneducated life in squalor? If the money spent on taking lives was put into saving them, what would we see?
Could those governments go and drop bombs on another nation if they would not like the same done to them?

This is idealism I know, but who would not find the results appealing? Who is not sick and tired of the mismanagement of this earth and its population by the evil actions of badly motivated humans?

I don't see the religious beliefs of people as being the main source of the world's problems per se...what I see is the abuse and exploitation of people's religious beliefs being used by governments to encourage participation in actions that their religious tenets never teach. I see this in all situations on both sides of any conflict. Emotional manipulation is rife, but most people cannot see it. Fanaticism and nationalism, supported by emotionally charged religion is a powerful formula for continuing conflict...not peace. A peacekeeper in today's world carries an automatic weapon.

For those of us who live in the so called "free world", (where many are shedding religion in favor of a more secular life,) can we say that we have a superior form of government that tackles the important internal issues such as education, employment and health care? Again, what is the track record? If the governments of any nation can't provide for their own with success, why are they wasting valuable resources making war in someone else's country?
When you ask "what's in it for them?"....you can usually see the agenda. It has nothing to do with a nation's religious faith, even though that is promoted as the motivating force behind their actions. Justification is not the same as justice.



Religious belief is inherent in humans. There is no getting away from it...we are spiritual beings. The expression of religious beliefs has sometimes seen abhorrent things committed in the name of some god. So I agree that not all religious beliefs are good and the "holy" writings that support their beliefs are interesting when you study them, but when we examine the humans who profess belief, we see them doing what humans do best....that is, to justify inhuman behavior and ignore the lessons behind the teachings they profess. That is pure hypocrisy...the very thing Jesus condemned in the leaders of his own nation.

When we examine what the Bible really teaches, (as opposed to what humans do in going against those teachings,) then we can see what the real problem is. It isn't what the Bible teaches that is to blame....it is the extent to which humans ignore those teachings when it suits them, that is responsible for the state of the world.

Let's put the blame where it lies...shall we? Unless humans can see their own part in causing the problem, nothing will change......unless the Creator steps in and rectifies the situation by force. This is actually what the Bible predicts. (Dan 2:44) This action will put a permanent halt to man's evil domination of this planet. That is my hope for the future. A world where everyone serves the same God and everyone abides by the Golden Rule.

I agree and disagree. You are right that many people seem to conveniently forget some of their religious beliefs when it suits their personal interests. But, that is not what I was pointing at with my comment.

The problem is that politicians are bringing in their religious beliefs as reasoning to resist change. Just look at same-sex marriage. Only civil (secular) marriage is at stake, and politicians are still spouting out nonsense about "God creating marriage" or "traditional marriage being vital" without supporting these seemingly ludicrous contentions with evidence. One thing is for sure, God did not create civil marriage, as it is a government invention, and a legal one at that. And, tradition has no inherent value, so the argument that we should keep marriage the way that it always has been is irritating to me. Stagnation is not what I want, and only present issues should be considered, and no viewpoint should even be heard without sufficient objective evidence supporting it.

If we could separate religious beliefs from governmental decision making, it would be a far better situation, and freedom would be more greatly protected. When we are deciding whether civil marriage should be extended to same-sex couples, and no religion would be forced to recognize any of these marriages, religious beliefs do not belong in the conversation.

 

[JayJayDee]

I agree and disagree. You are right that many people seem to conveniently forget some of their religious beliefs when it suits their personal interests. But, that is not what I was pointing at with my comment.

The problem is that politicians are bringing in their religious beliefs as reasoning to resist change.

You are absolutely right. Ploiticians have no business bringing their personal beliefs into their role as governors.

Just look at same-sex marriage. Only civil (secular) marriage is at stake, and politicians are still spouting out nonsense about "God creating marriage" or "traditional marriage being vital" without supporting these seemingly ludicrous contentions with evidence. One thing is for sure, God did not create civil marriage, as it is a government invention, and a legal one at that. And, tradition has no inherent value, so the argument that we should keep marriage the way that it always has been is irritating to me.

I completely understand the irritation. People who do not subscribe to the religious views of the government's leader should not be subjected to his beliefs being imposed on them as law.

From the Christian point of view, this should not be a problem. Jesus told us to be NO part of this world, so it wouldn't matter what the government permitted or forbade under man's law, Christians will follow God's law without having to have it legislated by the government and without the need to impose their values (or lack of them) on others.

Stagnation is not what I want, and only present issues should be considered, and no viewpoint should even be heard without sufficient objective evidence supporting it.

For many nations it is hard to separate the religious persuasion of the majority from their policies in government. But for Christians, we are to obey the laws of the land whilst upholding the laws of God on a personal level. No government legislation would make us break the law of God. Our God-given conscience dictates our actions.

If we could separate religious beliefs from governmental decision making, it would be a far better situation, and freedom would be more greatly protected. When we are deciding whether civil marriage should be extended to same-sex couples, and no religion would be forced to recognize any of these marriages, religious beliefs do not belong in the conversation.

If all Christians simply upheld the teachings of Jesus Christ, you would not see them campaigning for same sex marriage because that is not God's definition of marriage. But that just applies to them....what others do is their business. Our obligation to them is fulfilled when we tell them God's view and allow them to make their own choices. Jesus never forced anyone to obey him or even to listen to him. We all have choices and they should be ours to make. You cannot legislate someone else's morality. It has to come from their own heart.

 

[leibowde84]

You are absolutely right. Ploiticians have no business bringing their personal beliefs into their role as governors.


I completely understand the irritation. People who do not subscribe to the religious views of the government's leader should not be subjected to his beliefs being imposed on them as law.

From the Christian point of view, this should not be a problem. Jesus told us to be NO part of this world, so it wouldn't matter what the government permitted or forbade under man's law, Christians will follow God's law without having to have it legislated by the governement and without the need to impose their values (or lack of them) on others.



For many nations it is hard to separate the religious persuasion of the majority from their policies in government. But for Christians, we are to obey the laws of the land whilst upholding the laws of God on a personal level. No government legislation would make us break the law of God. Our God-given conscience dictates our actions.



If all Christians simply upheld the teachings of Jesus Christ, you would not see them campaigning for same sex marriage because that is not God's definition of marriage. But that just applies to them....what others do is their business. Our obligation to them is fulfilled when we tell them God's view and allow them to make their own choices. Jesus never forced anyone to obey him or even to listen to him. We all have choices and they should be ours to make. You cannot legislate someone else's morality. It has to come from their own heart.

Great comment. I could not agree with you more. As a Christian myself, I have a bit of disagreement, but it is completely understandable, as I have trouble believing that the Bible, in its entirety, is an accurate expression of God's will.

 

[oldbadger]

.............................. Does anyone actually travel, learn new languages, and try spread science and reason? ..............................

Do you think that only atheists appreciate science and reason?
....... I don't think so........

 

[JayJayDee]

Great comment. I could not agree with you more. As a Christian myself, I have a bit of disagreement, but it is completely understandable, as I have trouble believing that the Bible, in its entirety, is an accurate expression of God's will.

I guess many people who identify as Christians would say that they have knowledge of the Bible. I was one of those people. What I failed to understand was that Christendom does not teach what the Bible does in its entirety. They are inclined to pick out what they will or won't practice in their daily lives on personal preference.

Take God's laws on marriage and divorce as a a example. How many people in the churches today uphold Jesus teachings on marriage and divorce? In its strict sense, there are just two things that Jesus gave as grounds for scriptually dissolving a marriage.....adultery (fornication) and death. Regardless of what the laws of the land permit, Christians abide by God's word.

But what is "fornication"?

FORNICATION

Illicit sex relations outside of Scriptural marriage. The Hebrew verb za·nahʹ and its related forms convey the idea of harlotry, immoral intercourse, fornication, or prostitution. (Ge 38:24; Ex 34:16; Ho 1:2; Le 19:29) The Greek word translated “fornication” is por·neiʹa. Regarding the meanings of por·neiʹa, B. F. Westcott in his book Saint Paul’s Epistle to the Ephesians (1906, p. 76) says: “This is a general term for all unlawful intercourse, (I) adultery: Hos. ii. 2, 4 (LXX.); Matt. v. 32; xix. 9; (2) unlawful marriage, I Cor. v. I; (3) fornication, the common sense as here [Eph 5:3].” Bauer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (revised by F. W. Gingrich and F. Danker, 1979, p. 693) defines por·neiʹa as “prostitution, unchastity, fornication, of every kind of unlawful sexual intercourse.” Porneia is understood to involve the grossly immoral use of the genital organ(s) of at least one human; also there must have been two or more parties (including another consenting human or a beast), whether of the same sex or the opposite sex. (Jude 7) The unlawful act of a rapist is fornication, but, of course, that does not make the person who is forcibly raped also a fornicator."

Fornication — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Understanding what the Bible actually teaches, as opposed to what people think it teaches, makes our choices chrystal clear. There is no ambiguity or misunderstanding about what is meant when God speaks about "por·neiʹa" or any other activity that he outlines in his laws. Emotions are not part of the law. They cannot be used as a basis to alter what God's law states.

When you study the Bible as a guide for living, it doesn't leave you in doubt about its Author, it's wisdom and the benefits of obeying what God commands. It makes everything simple instead of the ambiguity and confusion that others wish to read into it.

 

[JustWondering]

I find the other position even more dangerous...the one where people not only engage in the destructive behaviors, but in full knowledge of the consequences, continue to promote the things they know are killing us, just to make money.

Knowing that there is no rescuer in sight....who is going to save humans from their own selfishness and stupidity?
What is the basis for confidence in man? How can man fix the problem, when man IS the problem?

Those with a consciousness toward God, respect for the planet, and who care about their fellow creatures, are often the ones seeking less destructive methods of living to begin with. The sheer magnitude of the problem however, means that their efforts are often like a drop in the ocean. Only a superior being with the necessary power and will can combat the evil that runs riot on this planet. We have already demonstrated our inability to stop it.

You are demonstrating the dangerous mindset I'm talking about perfectly. However, you take it even further. Not only is god going to fix all our woes for us but we are helpless to rectify our problems and make the world a better place ourselves. Your faith paints all of humanity as hopeless, nasty, lack-witted fools. You think of atheists as disillusioned, unhappy, and lost souls but to be completely honest your world view is sad and depressing.

That is your reality, not mine. The clouds are merely hiding what you cannot see.

Until your god shows up my reality is the same as yours.

Should we hold our breath waiting for man to take responsibility and create this utopia? Man seems to be as tardy in rectifying his destructive behaviors as the atheists think God is in fixing things up.

Human beings exist and there are good people who do good work helping others. When was the last time you saw god feeding the hungry and curing disease?

What positive thing can you glean from man's track record to give you hope that human nature will ever change? In an age where education and knowledge is more abundant than at any other time in history.....why do we still have no wisdom? Why are we sinking further and further into the mire?

Is it a race to see who acts first, do you think? What if this is God's earth and he comes soon to evict the bad tenants?
Will you have grounds to fight the eviction? (Rev 11:18)

Human civilization has advanced and progressed. Do we still have obstacles and challenges to deal with? Of course. You can sit with your dark age mindset of hopelessness waiting for some mystical being to rescue you. Even in the bible it says god helps those who help themselves. You seem to have given up though.

We both know that there is no way to prove the existence of God to an unbeliever, except with what we see with our own eyes, and having confidence in our own evidence. You can choose to reject that evidence and accept you own. It doesn't alter what will occur in the future. By the time the Bible's prediction about the judgment comes true...it will be too late to change lanes. The road you are on now, will lead you to your future......it will be the one you chose of your own free will.

Pretending that God isn't there doesn't make him go away....and without him we have no hope for the future...just more of the same until we destroy Mother Earth and she stops providing for us.

I will pin my hopes on the power that put us here. You can please yourself.

What evidence?! If there was honest to goodness EVIDENCE for the existence of your god there would be only one religion on this earth instead of hundreds, if not thousands of them.

If a creator exists it is very highly improbable that it resembles your god in any way. Why would the creator of life on this earth care any more about humanity that any other form of life it created? You'll probably reply with some nonsense that we were created in his image and that is the reason. That is a confusing response though, given your beliefs don't you think? Considering how hopelessly detestable, sinful, and evil humanity is. If we are supposed to be a reflection of your god, what does that say about your god?

 

[JayJayDee]

You are demonstrating the dangerous mindset I'm talking about perfectly. However, you take it even further. Not only is god going to fix all our woes for us but we are helpless to rectify our problems and make the world a better place ourselves.

How many thousands of years do you think it will take for man to show some improvement in his attitude towards his fellow man and towards the planet itself? As man has "progressed" in his knowledge of the world around him, has he shown any interest in fixing the damaged he's caused? Do his actions speak louder than his words?
There is talk about a lot of things...but when does it progress past the rhetoric?

Your faith paints all of humanity as hopeless, nasty, lack-witted fools. You think of atheists as disillusioned, unhappy, and lost souls but to be completely honest your world view is sad and depressing.

It is only depressing to atheists. I am waiting like everyone else, for someone who CAN make a difference, to do so.

Humanity has given me no cause to trust them. The whole reason I became a JW was because I could see nothing good in the future of left up to man. God didnt make me feel hopeless, it was humans who constantly contributed to the growing problems by not implementing the necessary programs that will enable any real change.
Religion in general offered no solutions nor any explanations about why we are here and what purpose was served by God's permission of evil.
I am a person who needs explanations, so I did not rest until I found them.

Where has man's fight for freedom landed him? He is free to rape the earth and squander its resources, adding to the pollution, whilst making noises about things improving....but where are the improvements?

When someone invented electric cars decades ago, their manufacture threatened the livelihood of the oil companies, so they were hauled off the market and trashed for scrap metal. Their polluting counterparts are still contributing to the fouling of the atmosphere all these decades later.....and you want me to put my trust in these people? Seriously?

Until your god shows up my reality is the same as yours.

At least I have a hope to temper the hopelessness of the world's present condition.
When my God does act, my life will change dramatically and so will yours. Whose position would you rather be in?

Human beings exist and there are good people who do good work helping others. When was the last time you saw god feeding the hungry and curing disease?

The last time God fed the hungry? Today. Did you eat today? Did the rain make crops grow? Did the sun do its job of photosynthesis? Did the insects do their part in pollinating the flowers so that farmers could harvest edible produce?

Did you ever recover from a cold or the flu? We have immune systems that cure disease every day. And what's more, antibodies produced in our blood will ensure that we do not get that virus again.

Despite our imperfection, we can still produce offspring with all their systems in working order.

When Jesus and his apostles walked the earth. What they did was demonstrate what they will do under the rule of God's Kingdom. Since he will also eliminate death, and raise those who lost their lives for various reasons, we have a demonstrated hope of something better to come. It's taking a long time for us earth bound creatures...but for timeless beings living in an eternal realm, it is but a few "days". No one has to wait longer than their own lifetime to reap the benefits of this superior rulership.

Human civilization has advanced and progressed. Do we still have obstacles and challenges to deal with? Of course. You can sit with your dark age mindset of hopelessness waiting for some mystical being to rescue you. Even in the bible it says god helps those who help themselves. You seem to have given up though.

What little we could accomplish as individuals would not fix even a tiny fraction of what ails this world. The problems run too deep and the progress we have made in some areas pales into insignificance when we compare it to the damage we have done through our so-called "advancenment" and "progress".

What evidence?! If there was honest to goodness EVIDENCE for the existence of your god there would be only one religion on this earth instead of hundreds, if not thousands of them.

There is only one true religion on this earth and it's the only one God recognises. His adversary has planted a bunch of counterfeits so that people will be misled, but God is confident that his sheep will hear the voice of the shepherd he has sent to lead them to life. We can be among them.

If a creator exists it is very highly improbable that it resembles your god in any way.

Since you do not know my God at all, I am at a loss to know how you can say that?

Why would the creator of life on this earth care any more about humanity that any other form of life it created? You'll probably reply with some nonsense that we were created in his image and that is the reason. That is a confusing response though, given your beliefs don't you think?

It's not confusing at all really. If you knew the whole story, you would see the wisdom in his actions. They have long term benefits that are not obvious unless you know why he has done what he has so far.

Have you heard the expression "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing"? That is particularly true when it comes to understanding God and his purpose for the earth and the creatures he put here. It isn't all about heaven you know.

Considering how hopelessly detestable, sinful, and evil humanity is. If we are supposed to be a reflection of your god, what does that say about your god?

It says a lot really.....the fact that he tolerates the level of evil that exists up to the present is a testimony to his patience.

Everything God has done has a role in his purpose, so we just need to wait and have confidence that he knows when to act to achieve the best result for the maximum amount of people. I have confidence in this future...I wish I could give it to you.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

When someone invented electric cars decades ago, their manufacture threatened the livelihood of the oil companies, so they were hauled off the market and trashed for scrap metal. Their polluting counterparts are still contributing to the fouling of the atmosphere all these decades later.....and you want me to put my trust in these people? Seriously?

Do you equate all people with billionaire oil company owners? If so, where's my refinery?!

 

[JayJayDee]

Do you equate all people with billionaire oil company owners? If so, where's my refinery?!

It's not only the billionaire oil companies that are perpetuating the problems. The systems that operate in the commercial world are driven by a level of greed that many cannot imagine. Industries that wield power and wealth dictate what we eat and drink....what we drive....what we wear....what medications we take....and how the earth's resources are used. Our lives are manipulated beyond belief....and yet many people actually believe that we who are governed under democracies, live in a free society. The freedom is an illusion.

According to the Revelation, there are three elements that make up the present system of things....the political, the commercial and the religious. All are under the control of God's adversary and all have great influence over earth's population. From the level of corruption that exists in all three, I don't think it is difficult to see...do you? This is why I believe the Bible. It shows how we got into this situation and how God gets us all back to square one.

I cannot make sense of the human condition without the Bible....but that is just me.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Do you think that only atheists appreciate science and reason?

No, but it comes to them more naturally.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It's not only the billionaire oil companies that are perpetuating the problems. The systems that operate in the commercial world are driven by a level of greed that many cannot imagine. Industries that wield power and wealth dictate what we eat and drink....what we drive....what we wear....what medications we take....and how the earth's resources are used. Our lives are manipulated beyond belief....and yet many people actually believe that we who are governed under democracies, live in a free society. The freedom is an illusion.

According to the Revelation, there are three elements that make up the present system of things....the political, the commercial and the religious. All are under the control of God's adversary and all have great influence over earth's population. From the level of corruption that exists in all three, I don't think it is difficult to see...do you? This is why I believe the Bible. It shows how we got into this situation and how God gets us all back to square one.

I cannot make sense of the human condition without the Bible....but that is just me.

If that's what you are required to believe in order to make sense of the world, go for it. Personally, I see the point you're making, and while I think you regard humanity with more cynicism than I do myself I can see the reasoning behind it. The fact is that when you've got a world populated with billions of people and an unchecked capitalist system sitting on top of it all, and all of the waste of resources, energy and general human effort that tends to go with it, it's hard not to be cynical. However, while I respect your right to belief, I think it serves more as a comfort than a solution. The problems you listed are real world problems that require real world solutions. Contextualizing them with religion isn't going to readjust the balance of power, it's just helping you to understand and come to terms with the problems without necessarily actually having to confront them. It's like using prayer instead of medicine to treat a disease; the prayer might make you feel better, but the medicine and the actual human effort and objective understanding of the illness is what is actually going to solve the issue - if indeed the issue can be solved.

I don't believe humanity is like it is because of the influence of malign supernatural entities - I just think people are complicated, and the world we live in is complicated and multi-faceted. We aren't manipulated into making the choices we make by powers beyond our control (in fact, that kind of thinking is probably more likely to cause further problems than resolve them), we make decisions to the best of ability and it just so happens that there are practically no decisions which won't have some negative impact somewhere down the line. For me, the human condition makes far more sense when you throw away supernatural causation and see human beings as flawed beings trying their best to keep themselves happy, and trying to maintain some kind of order in a Universe which is practically impossible for us to fully comprehend, which also makes sense of religious beliefs and ideologies. But, as you said, that is just me.

Can I have my oil refinery now, by the way?

 

[leibowde84]

I guess many people who identify as Christians would say that they have knowledge of the Bible. I was one of those people. What I failed to understand was that Christendom does not teach what the Bible does in its entirety. They are inclined to pick out what they will or won't practice in their daily lives on personal preference.

Take God's laws on marriage and divorce as a a example. How many people in the churches today uphold Jesus teachings on marriage and divorce? In its strict sense, there are just two things that Jesus gave as grounds for scriptually dissolving a marriage.....adultery (fornication) and death. Regardless of what the laws of the land permit, Christians abide by God's word.

But what is "fornication"?

FORNICATION

Illicit sex relations outside of Scriptural marriage. The Hebrew verb za·nahʹ and its related forms convey the idea of harlotry, immoral intercourse, fornication, or prostitution. (Ge 38:24; Ex 34:16; Ho 1:2; Le 19:29) The Greek word translated “fornication” is por·neiʹa. Regarding the meanings of por·neiʹa, B. F. Westcott in his book Saint Paul’s Epistle to the Ephesians (1906, p. 76) says: “This is a general term for all unlawful intercourse, (I) adultery: Hos. ii. 2, 4 (LXX.); Matt. v. 32; xix. 9; (2) unlawful marriage, I Cor. v. I; (3) fornication, the common sense as here [Eph 5:3].” Bauer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (revised by F. W. Gingrich and F. Danker, 1979, p. 693) defines por·neiʹa as “prostitution, unchastity, fornication, of every kind of unlawful sexual intercourse.” Porneia is understood to involve the grossly immoral use of the genital organ(s) of at least one human; also there must have been two or more parties (including another consenting human or a beast), whether of the same sex or the opposite sex. (Jude 7) The unlawful act of a rapist is fornication, but, of course, that does not make the person who is forcibly raped also a fornicator."

Fornication — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Understanding what the Bible actually teaches, as opposed to what people think it teaches, makes our choices chrystal clear. There is no ambiguity or misunderstanding about what is meant when God speaks about "por·neiʹa" or any other activity that he outlines in his laws. Emotions are not part of the law. They cannot be used as a basis to alter what God's law states.

When you study the Bible as a guide for living, it doesn't leave you in doubt about its Author, it's wisdom and the benefits of obeying what God commands. It makes everything simple instead of the ambiguity and confusion that others wish to read into it.

This argument irritates me, though. This idea that, unless you are taking the Bible in its entirety, you must be picking and choosing based on personal preference. This is an absolutely ludicrous assumption, and pretty disrespectful at that. Many thinking Christians see the Bible for what it is ... a book written thousands of years ago by men with a great deal less understanding about the physical world and societies in general. To disregard the immense differences in culture is to believe without reason, which, imho, is the definition of evil.

 

[JayJayDee]

If that's what you are required to believe in order to make sense of the world, go for it. Personally, I see the point you're making, and while I think you regard humanity with more cynicism than I do myself I can see the reasoning behind it. The fact is that when you've got a world populated with billions of people and an unchecked capitalist system sitting on top of it all, and all of the waste of resources, energy and general human effort that tends to go with it, it's hard not to be cynical. However, while I respect your right to belief, I think it serves more as a comfort than a solution.

Do you find any comfort in man's ability to solve the problems that are clearly out of his control? Global problems require global solutions, and the world's diverse political entries are certainly showing no signs of coming together.

If peace and security is to be achieved, it will have to be introduced by force. We hear about "Globalization" which used to be called the "New World Order", as the way of the future. What will this mean for us?
Do you have knowledge of the UN's projections for the future under the banner of "Globalization"?

This is actually spoken about in the Bible. It is depicted as an entity that will promise "peace and security" but will actually have to take away every freedom that humans have ever fought for, in order to achieve it. Complete control over human activity will make life very difficult for those who refuse to "worship" the "image of the wild beast", according to the Revelation.

The problems you listed are real world problems that require real world solutions. Contextualizing them with religion isn't going to readjust the balance of power, it's just helping you to understand and come to terms with the problems without necessarily actually having to confront them.

There is a reason why Jesus told us to be "no part of this world". It is a world that is ruled by God's enemy. (1 John 5:19)
It does not require belief in God or the devil for this Situation to exist. Disbelieving doesn't make something untrue.

We are not immune to what the world does. We live in it, and are as much victims of its troubles as everyone else, but we are not contributors to the problem. My brotherhood is not part of the bloodshed, the crime, or the causes for war. Prisons are not full of JW's unless it's for refusing to participate in the bloodshed. We are not terrorists or corrupt politicians caught up in a rampant political machine, drunk with power. We do not carry weapons or harbour hatred in our hearts for those of other nations. We carry our peaceful message of hope to all who wish to hear it in every nation on earth....but we already know from Jesus' words that it will, for the most part, fall on deaf ears. (Matt 24:36-39)

It's like using prayer instead of medicine to treat a disease; the prayer might make you feel better, but the medicine and the actual human effort and objective understanding of the illness is what is actually going to solve the issue - if indeed the issue can be solved.

Again....we are not those relying prayer for cures. We rely on prayer for strength to endure our difficulties. Whatever God allows for now, will not cause any permanent damage for anyone. Even death will yield to God's incoming Kingdom. (Rev 21:2-5)

By not contributing to the problems, we are being more pro-active than most. No one has anything to fear from us. We pose no threat to anyone for any reason. We are just patiently waiting for our deliverance. (Luke 21:25-28)

I don't believe humanity is like it is because of the influence of malign supernatural entities - I just think people are complicated, and the world we live in is complicated and multi-faceted. We aren't manipulated into making the choices we make by powers beyond our control (in fact, that kind of thinking is probably more likely to cause further problems than resolve them), we make decisions to the best of ability and it just so happens that there are practically no decisions which won't have some negative impact somewhere down the line.

You know, many people used to say something similar to this when we spoke about the influence of unseen evil forces in the world......but now we hear them admit to the possibility, due to the level of evil they are witnessing.....in their own nation and in the world as a whole. If you are exposed to "news" from an uncontrolled media, a wider picture emerges.

For me, the human condition makes far more sense when you throw away supernatural causation and see human beings as flawed beings trying their best to keep themselves happy, and trying to maintain some kind of order in a Universe which is practically impossible for us to fully comprehend, which also makes sense of religious beliefs and ideologies. But, as you said, that is just me.

For me, there is no explanation apart from that which the Bible gives, and there is no real hope for the human race, if left up to their own devices. I see no basis for optimism unless you have on some kind of rose colored glasses.

What is coming (according to Bible prophesy) will mean the end of any kind of freedom for those who refuse to conform to the global laws enforced by a global military force that will be more of what we already see. Have you not noticed that the police now are increasingly seen as jack-booted thugs who are trained to show no mercy. It's shoot first and ask questions later. Very scary.
This is the future according to the Bible. It will result in the greatest tribulation ever seen on earth (Matt 24:21) But when all seems lost, the rescuer comes and eliminates this "beast" and cleanses the earth of all future threats.
Fantasy? Perhaps it may appear to be, but it's what we accept as our truth, due to what we see already fulfilled.

Can I have my oil refinery now, by the way?

Sure....just dig down far enough for a gusher.....and the oil companies will beat a path to your door. $$$$$ will follow.
Happiness however, cannot be guaranteed, unless you give your money to benefit others. (Acts 20:35)

 

[leibowde84]

Do you find any comfort in man's ability to solve the problems that are clearly out of his control? Global problems require global solutions, and the world's diverse political entries are certainly showing no signs of coming together.

If peace and security is to be achieved, it will have to be introduced by force. We hear about "Globalization" which used to be called the "New World Order", as the way of the future. What will this mean for us?
Do you have knowledge of the UN's projections for the future under the banner of "Globalization"?

This is actually spoken about in the Bible. It is depicted as an entity that will promise "peace and security" but will actually have to take away every freedom that humans have ever fought for, in order to achieve it. Complete control over human activity will make life very difficult for those who refuse to "worship" the "image of the wild beast", according to the Revelation.



There is a reason why Jesus told us to be "no part of this world". It is a world that is ruled by God's enemy. (1 John 5:19)
It does not require belief in God or the devil for this Situation to exist. Disbelieving doesn't make something untrue.

We are not immune to what the world does. We live in it, and are as much victims of its troubles as everyone else, but we are not contributors to the problem. My brotherhood is not part of the bloodshed, the crime, or the causes for war. Prisons are not full of JW's unless it's for refusing to participate in the bloodshed. We are not terrorists or corrupt politicians caught up in a rampant political machine, drunk with power. We do not carry weapons or harbour hatred in our hearts for those of other nations. We carry our peaceful message of hope to all who wish to hear it in every nation on earth....but we already know from Jesus' words that it will, for the most part, fall on deaf ears. (Matt 24:36-39)


Again....we are not those relying prayer for cures. We rely on prayer for strength to endure our difficulties. Whatever God allows for now, will not cause any permanent damage for anyone. Even death will yield to God's incoming Kingdom. (Rev 21:2-5)

By not contributing to the problems, we are being more pro-active than most. No one has anything to fear from us. We pose no threat to anyone for any reason. We are just patiently waiting for our deliverance. (Luke 21:25-28)



You know, many people used to say something similar to this when we spoke about the influence of unseen evil forces in the world......but now we hear them admit to the possibility, due to the level of evil they are witnessing.....in their own nation and in the world as a whole. If you are exposed to "news" from an uncontrolled media, a wider picture emerges.



For me, there is no explanation apart from that which the Bible gives, and there is no real hope for the human race, if left up to their own devices. I see no basis for optimism unless you have on some kind of rose colored glasses.

What is coming (according to Bible prophesy) will mean the end of any kind of freedom for those who refuse to conform to the global laws enforced by a global military force that will be more of what we already see. Have you not noticed that the police now are increasingly seen as jack-booted thugs who are trained to show no mercy. It's shoot first and ask questions later. Very scary.
This is the future according to the Bible. It will result in the greatest tribulation ever seen on earth (Matt 24:21) But when all seems lost, the rescuer comes and eliminates this "beast" and cleanses the earth of all future threats.
Fantasy? Perhaps it may appear to be, but it's what we accept as our truth, due to what we see already fulfilled.


Sure....just dig down far enough for a gusher.....and the oil companies will beat a path to your door. $$$$$ will follow.
Happiness however, cannot be guaranteed, unless you give your money to benefit others. (Acts 20:35)

But, is it wise to base your world view on your own preference of how the universe works? Should our comfort play any part in our search for understanding and truth?