What if atheists had a missionary service?

[JustWondering]

You say that with such certainty....perhaps the Creator has no need of those who have no need of him. We shall see I guess, won't we? There is much at stake though.

My certainty comes from the FACT that your religion has no more evidence or credible arguments to back it than ANY other religion. That makes your religion just as plausible as Scientology, Hinduism, Shintoism, Wicca, and so on. There are plenty of gods and religions on the market to choose from but not one of them has any convincing evidence that they are in fact the truth. That is reality. Until you can present honest to goodness evidence that you religion is true it will remain nothing but fantasy and wishful thinking.

 

[JustWondering]

I don't think you have any idea what MY "God concept" is. I would like to enlighten you.

I'm sure you would but unless you have some of that evidence I was just mentioning to back up your claims I'm not going to be very impressed.

 

[JustWondering]

Perhaps they will. The question is....do they have to? Could there be something more to this story that is not obvious to you?

I find it interesting that you refer to humanity as "they" as if humanity in general is a different group that has nothing to do with you. I think that alone speaks volumes about what your religion has done to your mindset.

 

[JustWondering]

How do you know that?

Who else created all the worlds religions then? Aliens? Big Foot? My cat?

 

[JayJayDee]

There's the problem if there is a real tree hiding in there and if it's real how is it possible to hide something an omnipotent being put on display for "all to see". No religion comes close to being a monopoly.

It isn't a case of a monopoly....."few" are on the road to life because not many find "the gate" that leads off the main highway. The majority, according to Jesus, are on the wrong road...it is the easy way.....the one that causes them no hardship at all. (Matt 7:13, 14) Most humans will find the line of least resistance and justify their way to avoiding hardship if at all possible. Christians should know why the cramped and narrow road is difficult to travel.

We have to understand why we are in this contest for our lives in the first place.

God's adversary never challenged God's power. What he did was challenge his sovereignty...his right to set reasonable limits for his creation. What was the best way to settle the issue? Eliminate the rebel and leave the question unanswered? If he did that, what was to stop another rebel from doing the same thing?...over and over again? Has the death penalty ever stopped criminals from breaking the law?

Was God's rulership the right one for humans and angels? Was independence from God beneficial or not? Would humans be better off listening to God's adversary and making their own decisions? Was self rule the way to go?

Giving the rebels freedom to prove their case is in the best interests of all of God's intelligent creatures, both in the earthly and heavenly realm of his creation. The outcome provides precedents that will be used to judge all cases of rebellion if they should ever occur again in the future. God's purpose for his creation cannot go forward until this one important issue is settled. Free willed beings have to understand why their "freedom" has reasonable limits set by their creator.

Imagining some conspiracies that do not exist just based on biblical reasoning is one reason why I never could take certain Christian groups seriously. Like @Revoltingest said, once you've been inside industry(I haven't) or for some other reason such as knowing a person during the time they claim they were abducted or such when they were completely normal kind of destroys most of the conspiracies.

Discernment is required when evaluating conspiracies. Understanding why some are valid whilst others are ridiculous will require knowledge of the subject matter. The ridiculous ones are thrown in as smoke screen to make you think they are all ridiculous.....they aren't.

Do the solar panels appear out of thin air, require no maintenance or materials? People are working on making better solar panels. We'll see a large increase in their use.

We may well see improvements in these systems as it becomes increasingly difficult to provide all the power needed by an expanding population. But dependence on the system in some way is still necessary for most solar users at this point in time. Despite my solar panels supplying power in the daylight hours, if the power goes down, we go down with it. The reasons have been explained and they make sense, but a stand alone system would not tie us into the grid.

Much was inconcievable in the past. Science has changed our lives. We can now communicate from across the globe without a problem for low costs and we can do it daily. People are living longer lives and there's more us now.

No one contests that advances in technology have opened up new and seemingly beneficial aspects to our lives, but the Internet has also opened up a new world to those who wish to feed sick appetites and engage in questionable conduct via cyberspace. No longer is it necessary to leave the privacy of our own homes to engage in wrong or even illegal conduct.

This is why we can never judge people because we have no idea what they are like behind closed doors....God does though, so we will leave the judgment up to him. It will be fair, based on what he sees as the whole person, not just the facade that is portrayed to the world outside.

 

[JustWondering]

Unless of course, he has reasons for this situation that you are not aware of....? Perhaps the reason for the delay is because he is so merciful, loving and caring?

Lol, your logic for defending your perfect, all-knowing, and all-powerful god's lack of concern for humanities suffering is that some mystical reason exists that he can't alleviate our suffering, which makes him imperfect, not all-knowing and powerful. Someone who honestly loves someone else would not allow them to suffer or die if they had the power to stop it. So if a creator exists it loves us but is not as powerful and wise as you like to think it is or it doesn't love us.

How would you know if you never investigate?

I have investigated, that's why I am an atheist.

 

[JayJayDee]

I find it interesting that you refer to humanity as "they" as if humanity in general is a different group that has nothing to do with you. I think that alone speaks volumes about what your religion has done to your mindset.

Well, if you refer back to You post, you will see that I was responding to what you said.....

"There is no supernatural safety net waiting to catch us. Humanity will sink or swim on its own. If we fail to adapt and overcome what is thrown at us then perhaps our fossils will join those of dinosaurs in a future sentient species museum."
To which I responded....
"Perhaps they will. The question is....do they have to? Could there be something more to this story that is not obvious to you?"

Since I do not consider myself part of the "humanity that will sink or swim on its own" I distanced myself from the ones to whom you referred. My "religion" has done wonderful things for my mindset actually...it has given me hope of a future that the majority of humanity do not accept...yourself included apparently.
It has also engendered a desire to share my hope with others. I would rather have my mindset than yours any day....Hopeless doesn't really appeal to me.

From that whole post, this is all you have to say? Perhaps that says more about you and your mindset than mine?

Edit: if you would respond in a way that didn't include multiple posts to cover every individual point, it would be easier to address your responses. Getting so many notifications for one post just makes it confusing. The reply system here does not allow me to see your other responses until after I have posted mine.

 

[JayJayDee]

Who else created all the worlds religions then? Aliens? Big Foot? My cat?

Humans did. Under influence from God's adversary.

 

[JayJayDee]

Lol, your logic for defending your perfect, all-knowing, and all-powerful god's lack of concern for humanities suffering is that some mystical reason exists that he can't alleviate our suffering, which makes him imperfect, not all-knowing and powerful. Someone who honestly loves someone else would not allow them to suffer or die if they had the power to stop it. So if a creator exists it loves us but is not as powerful and wise as you like to think it is or it doesn't love us.

The reasons exist as I posted above in #105.

I have investigated, that's why I am an atheist.

I question the extent of your investigation....and the source of your information.

 

[JustWondering]

Since I do not consider myself part of the "humanity that will sink or swim on its own" I distanced myself from the ones to whom you referred.

I am well aware of JW's practice of distancing themselves from "worldly" things and people. Why would a god who wants his creation to get along purposely encourage divisive beliefs? Answer: it wouldn't, your beliefs are manmade and flawed.

My "religion" has done wonderful things for my mindset actually...it has given me hope of a future that the majority of humanity do not accept...yourself included apparently. It has also engendered a desire to share my hope with others. I would rather have my mindset than yours any day....Hopeless doesn't really appeal to me.

Your hope is false hope that is not founded in reality. Also, I do not feel hopeless. I do not want or need false hope.

if you would respond in a way that didn't include multiple posts to cover every individual point, it would be easier to address your responses. Getting so many notifications for one post just makes it confusing. The reply system here does not allow me to see your other responses until after I have posted mine.

Your responses get longer with each post. If you could limit your responses to what is being discussed it would be easier. Otherwise I am going to have to break it up to keep track of it all.

 

[JustWondering]

Humans did. Under influence from God's adversary.

So all religions were created under the influence of their respective gods? Do you have any kind of credible evidence to back up this claim?

 

[JayJayDee]

You found something that gave you comfort. If your theology didn't promise you that your god would swoop down to save you and make a paradise for you to life in forever you would have accepted a different religion that did. You can lie and say otherwise but lets be honest, JW's belief system revolves around fear about "getting accepted" by god at the end of the world to live on in a new fantastical one forever.

Yes, let's be honest. If one is a believer in the Bible, then one should accept all that it teaches. To do otherwise would make us hypocrites of the worst order. Who loves a hypocrite?

The Bible is one story from Genesis to Revelation... A story about what we had in the beginning, how we lost it, and how we get it back. It tells us what God expects from his human creation and how to navigate in the world ruled by his adversary, without becoming a victim of the corruption that drives it.

Where is the fear in obeying the one who made us? We trust him to know what is best for us. There is a healthy fear that all of us manifest in our lives. Biting the hand that provided and sustains our life is not a very smart thing to do.

The right kind of fear is necessary. We do not put our hands in a fire to see if it will burn because we would fear the consequences. We don't stand on a railway track to see if the train is capable of killing us...nor do we jump off cliffs to see if harm will come to us. With a sound mind, the right kind of fear would dictate our actions.

We instill that healthy fear into our own children and even hold their hands while crossing the road until they have the wisdom to cross safely themselves. Why? Because we hate them and want them to suffer from restricted freedom?

Your thinking IMO is rather distorted.

 

[JustWondering]

The reasons exist as I posted above in #105.

So you believe we have free will and need to learn our place the hard way as the reason for the suffering in the world. That argument instantly falls apart when you consider the number of children that die on a regular basis. What can an infant learn about god before it dies. An infant cannot even grasp the concept of god. Next, you'll claim that children get a free pass because they were children and didn't have a chance to take the test. That begs the question: If god is perfectly fine with letting humans get into heaven or the next world, without taking the free will test, why bother with the test at all?

The bible also mentions nothing about "free will", in fact, the bible shows god taking the pharaohs free will from him.

I world full of agony and suffering is not necessary for a god to get his human pets to behave as he desires. He could have simply created us not to be greedy and violent in the first place.

I question the extent of your investigation....and the source of your information.

Of course you do. I could give you an endless stream of logical and well reasoned arguments supported by evidence but you will simply dismiss them out of hand if they contradict your beliefs. You are a true believer. You embraced and cling to your beliefs because of emotion, not logic and reason after all.

 

[JustWondering]

Yes, let's be honest. If one is a believer in the Bible, then one should accept all that it teaches. To do otherwise would make us hypocrites of the worst order. Who loves a hypocrite?

The Bible is one story from Genesis to Revelation... A story about what we had in the beginning, how we lost it, and how we get it back. It tells us what God expects from his human creation and how to navigate in the world ruled by his adversary, without becoming a victim of the corruption that drives it.

Where is the fear in obeying the one who made us? We trust him to know what is best for us. There is a healthy fear that all of us manifest in our lives. Biting the hand that provided and sustains our life is not a very smart thing to do.

The right kind of fear is necessary. We do not put our hands in a fire to see if it will burn because we would fear the consequences. We don't stand on a railway track to see if the train is capable of killing us...nor do we jump off cliffs to see if harm will come to us. With a sound mind, the right kind of fear would dictate our actions.

We instill that healthy fear into our own children and even hold their hands while crossing the road until they have the wisdom to cross safely themselves. Why? Because we hate them and want them to suffer from restricted freedom?

Your thinking IMO is rather distorted.

The bible is full of fantastical stories that have no foundation in reality. There is not one shred of credible evidence to confirm that any of the fantastical claims made in the bible can be true? So how is doubting your religion which is one of MANY that make fantastical claims so hard for you to understand? Can you divorce yourself from your bias and emotions and give a logical argument, preferably supported by credible evidence that a non-believer could honestly consider?

 

[JayJayDee]

I always find it amusing how believers like you gloss over the idea that if your god created everything like you like to claim then he created disease, droughts, and poverty as well.

Well actually he doesn't "create" disease or droughts or even poverty. The thing is, he has stepped out of intervention in human affairs for the most part, in order for the consequences of independent human activities to run their natural course. He is simply not preventing them. We chose this course, he is allowing us to experience what independence from him really means.

The reality is we only have so many resources to go around and yet the bible tells people to pump out kids like there is no tomorrow. Does that really sound like wise advice when the world population is sitting at 7 billion already and we don't have enough resources to go around as is?

Really? Where is this command from God for humans to have more children than they can feed? When God gave the command to the first humans to "fill the earth", the potential for success was still their reality. There was nothing wrong with the original plan...it was what humans decided to do before they produced children that caused the problems. They wanted to do things their way, so God let them.

When someone asks you to "fill" a glass of water....what makes you stop? When God asked humans to "fill the earth" he had no intention that they should overfill it. Why would he?

The people I mentioned are doing REAL work in REALITY that your imaginary god cannot do that has saved billions of lives. Work that you have benefited from yourself. Yet the only response you can give is more hysterical pessimistic ranting based on nothing more than threats from your doomsday book (bible).

Those 'pessimistic rantings' are outlining the reality we all see with our own eyes.....the one you apparently don't believe exists, or choose not to acknowledge. The track record of man in solving the problems his greed has created is abysmal. Your optimism seems to be based on as much fantasy as you think we believe in.

The bible is full of fantastical stories that have no foundation in reality. There is not one shred of credible evidence to confirm that any of the fantastical claims made in the bible can be true? So how is doubting your religion which is one of MANY that make fantastical claims so hard for you to understand?

It isn't hard to understand at all. Belief is a very personal thing. You have your chosen beliefs and so have I. We have the freedom to make our choices and we each have our reasons for believing as we do.

Humankind are being separated into two categories as we speak. We are all making choices about many things that will place us into one category or another. There are only two.....those "doing the will of God" and those who aren't. "Sheep" or " goats"...that's it.
This is not dependent on any label a person may choose to wear. God does not recognise labels....he is above that.

You cannot say that I am categorically "wrong" just because you don't believe what I believe.....and the reverse is also true. By stating what we believe on a forum such as this, the readers here are free to make up their own minds about what points appeal to them.

Can you divorce yourself from your bias and emotions and give a logical argument, preferably supported by credible evidence that a non-believer could honestly consider?

My study of the Bible is not done with emotion, but rather it has been scrutinised according to logic and common sense from a believer's viewpoint...these beliefs are part of who I am and they will not be sacrificed on the alter of cynicism and unbelief. There are things in this world that cannot be "proven"...they require belief. I am unashamedly a believer.

 

[serp777]

Its called an educational exchange, just look at any major college.

And getting organized under the name of atheism is illogical. Its like getting organized under asantaclausism or acelestialteapotism or aleaperchaunism.

 

[leibowde84]

I know what it feels like to be hit one too many times.


I commend anyone for scrutiny, as the Beoreans were commended for checking the scriptures to see if the aposte's teachings matched what the scriptures taught. (Acts 17:10, 11) Having an overview of what the Jews believed and how it relates to Christ's teachings is important. Without that background knowledge, nothing makes sense. The Bible is one story from Genesis to Revelation. There is just one God and one son of God who was sent into the world to teach us how to worship the Father acceptably. (John 17:3)
He did not come to start a new religion, but to clean up the old one.


Well, I see it well up on the list, but not on top. One first has to have something to reason on in order to use this faculty.
If we believe the Bible to be the word of God, preserved in its entirety from the beginning by him as instruction to his people, then why do we assume that he is powerless about the choice of its contents? If "ALL scripture is inspired of God" then we either accept it as such in its entirety or we don't accept any of it. (2 Tim 3:16, 17)



Perhaps you have been listening to the wrong people?

Actually Paul was accompanied on the road to Damascus. He wasn't alone. There were witnesses to the event. Please read the account in Acts 9:1-22 and see how Saul became the apostle Paul.
Acts was written by Luke, not Paul. The other apostles did not reject him as an apostle, even though he was not one of the 12. All the apostles were personally instructed by Jesus Christ and Paul was no exception. After his conversion he went away and was not exclusively instructed by the other apostles, but received his instruction from Jesus personally. His assignment was a little different and his background equipped him to fulfil a special role in the gentile ministry. (Acts 22:6-21; 26:12-23)

Paul had nothing to gain by fabricating any authority for the simple reason that he had greater authority as an educated Pharisee. The Christians were a persecuted minority, so I don't know where you got that idea? Paul suffered more than all the others for his service to the Christian ministry. He actually had more to lose from a worldly point of view, but he saw the gain spiritually.

I believe you are doing Paul a grave disservice.

Here is the part that I have trouble with:
"If "ALL scripture is inspired of God" then we either accept it as such in its entirety or we don't accept any of it."

- I don't think this is a reasonable position. You speak as if you have a very specific understanding of what "inspired by God" means. And, the question is not whether God "could" control the contents of the Bible, but, instead, whether God did make sure that nothing inaccurate came out. I am under the belief that God gave up much of his power when he gave us the gift of Free Will. Because of this, he could "inspire" scriptures, but he was unable to make them "perfect" or without error. God also, however, gave us reason, which can be used to decipher what was truly the word of God and what was added by imperfect men due to lack of understanding or impure intentions.

 

[paarsurrey]

And, the question is not whether God "could" control the contents of the Bible, but, instead, whether God did make sure that nothing inaccurate came out. I am under the belief that God gave up much of his power when he gave us the gift of Free Will. Because of this, he could "inspire" scriptures, but he was unable to make them "perfect" or without error. God also, however, gave us reason, which can be used to decipher what was truly the word of God and what was added by imperfect men due to lack of understanding or impure intentions.

This is truthful for Bible. I agree with you.
Regards

 

[JustWondering]

Well actually he doesn't "create" disease or droughts or even poverty. The thing is, he has stepped out of intervention in human affairs for the most part, in order for the consequences of independent human activities to run their natural course. He is simply not preventing them. We chose this course, he is allowing us to experience what independence from him really means.

Actually the bible says good created disease when he kicked Adam and Eve out of Eden. Secondly, if god created everything then he created disease by default. He created a world with an erratic weather system that causes droughts. He created humans to be aggressive, territorial, and greedy creatures. In a universe created by a master watchmaker freewill is just an illusion. As I posted earlier, freewill isn't mentioned in the bible as something important to god. The bible clearly shows that god wants obedience above all else. If that is the case why would he create beings that would defy him? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Really? Where is this command from God for humans to have more children than they can feed? When God gave the command to the first humans to "fill the earth", the potential for success was still their reality. There was nothing wrong with the original plan...it was what humans decided to do before they produced children that caused the problems. They wanted to do things their way, so God let them.

When someone asks you to "fill" a glass of water....what makes you stop? When God asked humans to "fill the earth" he had no intention that they should overfill it. Why would he?

As I posted above god demands obedience, he said to fill the earth, that's what he expects. Even today billions of Christians condemn the use of contraceptives and abortions.

Those 'pessimistic rantings' are outlining the reality we all see with our own eyes.....the one you apparently don't believe exists, or choose not to acknowledge. The track record of man in solving the problems his greed has created is abysmal. Your optimism seems to be based on as much fantasy as you think we believe in.

Humans exist, so they can actually do things to make the world a better place. Your god does not exist, therefore he can do nothing. Your mindset of "man is doomed to failure and only MY invisible sky god can save us" is dangerous. It promotes apathy towards very serious issues that a non-existent sky god is never going to fix for us. I'm sorry your so swept up in your religion to see that but its true.

It isn't hard to understand at all. Belief is a very personal thing. You have your chosen beliefs and so have I. We have the freedom to make our choices and we each have our reasons for believing as we do.

Yep.

Humankind are being separated into two categories as we speak. We are all making choices about many things that will place us into one category or another. There are only two.....those "doing the will of God" and those who aren't. "Sheep" or " goats"...that's it.
This is not dependent on any label a person may choose to wear. God does not recognise labels....he is above that.

You make it seem everything is black and white when the universe we live in is gray. No one chooses to have messed up brain chemistry that makes them psychotic or suicidal. No one gets to choose what culture and circumstances they are born into.

You cannot say that I am categorically "wrong" just because you don't believe what I believe.....and the reverse is also true. By stating what we believe on a forum such as this, the readers here are free to make up their own minds about what points appeal to them.

I have made up my mind to say you are wrong about your beliefs. By defending your beliefs you are saying I'm wrong about mine. It's all good. That's what the debate forums are for.

My study of the Bible is not done with emotion, but rather it has been scrutinized according to logic and common sense from a believer's viewpoint...these beliefs are part of who I am and they will not be sacrificed on the alter of cynicism and unbelief. There are things in this world that cannot be "proven"...they require belief. I am unashamedly a believer.

I require evidence and claims that make sense to believe. So far, the bible and the religions and people who follow it have yet to provide any. So, I guess if a good afterlife is dependent on me honestly believing 2000+ year old fantastical stories from a time of superstition I'm screwed.

You claim to scrutinize using logic and common sense FROM A BELIEVER'S VIEWPOINT. How is that possible? If you have already bought in and doubled down on your belief system how can you be anything but biased?

 

[JayJayDee]

Actually the bible says good created disease when he kicked Adam and Eve out of Eden. Secondly, if god created everything then he created disease by default.

Nah, sorry...the Bible says no such thing.

What happened when the first humans withdrew from their God's blessing and protection, was the imposition of a death sentence. It was not immediate, but manifested as an imperfection that cut them down at the genetic level, slowly introducing ageing, sickness and eventual death. (Rom 5:12)....much like a mutation of the genes that keep the immune system functioning at an optimal level and preventing the infinite cycle of cell renewal that should rightly take place in the human body. This in turn made man succesptible to diseases that his immune system would normally deal with perfectly.
God did not make them sick...they made themselves sick.

He created a world with an erratic weather system that causes droughts.

Did he? Or was it that God withdrew his protection and allowed humans to see what happens in a world without God looking after them?
When Jesus was in a boat with his disciples and a storm came up threatening shipwreck, Jesus calmed the storm with a word..."hush"!
God has withdrawn from intervening in human affairs to prove to us that we cannot rule ourselves successfully without him.

He created humans to be aggressive, territorial, and greedy creatures. In a universe created by a master watchmaker freewill is just an illusion.

Again, you have made assumption based on what? Imperfection in the humans that God originally created perfect, is seen in this greed and hunger for domination over others and their territory. They were not created that way at all.

Free will is very much at the centre of why God has allowed the greatest object lesson man will ever experience.

Only when we understand that free will is not to be used to the detriment of others, will be understand why God did not create us a robots with no choices. He endowed humans with his own qualities....and free will was one of them. He could have created us like the animals, programmed only by instinct, but that is not the way God is....he is a free agent who can choose to act in a certain way judging by the circumstances at the time.

Only his human creation can contemplate the past and use that information to calculate their present activities and plan for the future.

If the first humans had simply obeyed their Creator, no divisions among mankind would have taken place. He would not have selfishly apportioned land for himself and fought and killed those who wanted to steal it, along with his goods.

The whole earth belongs to God.....fighting over which bits belong to what people is akin to fleas fighting over which part of the dog belongs to them.

As I posted earlier, freewill isn't mentioned in the bible as something important to god. The bible clearly shows that god wants obedience above all else. If that is the case why would he create beings that would defy him? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

On the contrary, it makes perfect sense. God wants obedience based on what? Fear? Or Love?
By giving humans free will, he asked them to obey him but did not force their obedience. He gave them choices.
He also stated the outcome for each choice very clearly. To choose to disobey meant death....to choose obedience, meant unending life.....right here on earth. There was no need for anyone to go to heaven, nor any need for Christ to come into the world apart from Adam's sin.

If Adam and his wife had simply obeyed, they would be cozied up right now with all their offspring, enjoying paradise conditions on earth with them. This was God's first purpose. What Adam lost for his children, Jesus came to get back for us. It's not that complicated really.

As I posted above god demands obedience, he said to fill the earth, that's what he expects. Even today billions of Christians condemn the use of contraceptives and abortions.

Since God condemns abortion as murder, then we would uphold that stance. But there is no law of God that condemns the prevention of conception. Having children is a responsibility, not a right. If we have more than we can provide for, then we have also violated a scriptural principle. (1 Tim 5:4, 8)

Humans exist, so they can actually do things to make the world a better place.

Yes, we can see every day how successful he is at achieving this....