What if creationism is true?

[shawn001]

Yes I can.

okay I'll bite. Although, already I know I should have rephrased the statement for clairities sake.

 

[jasonwill2]

Call of The Wild, what do you think of Stellar Evolution? The Process of star development over time?

Always one of my favorite areas.

 

[wubs23]

The complexity of DNA, the fined tuned parameters to make human life possible, the second law of thermodynamics, the origin of the universe, and the very high improbability of evolution, all of these things point to Intelligent Design.

How?

I think it points more towards a lack of understanding these concepts.

 

[F0uad]

There is a creator, and you are all standing on-top of it. It is The Universe, and The Universe calculated it's exact proportions of physical constants because it was the only possible way for anything to exist.

If you are the only thing in existence, you have two choices:

1) do nothing and nothing ever happens

2) create something so something happens.

So if you have to create to do something, and YOU are all that exists, what do you create this something out of? Yourself obviously, quite literally you use your essence to create stuff. Then you cease to be a consciousness, but BECOME the material reality.

I know that the tricks of the devils are convincing people not to belief in God but you made such a error.

You addressed the Universe as a being so material objects can now calculate?...
Your argument is that when nothing does nothing.. nothing happens i would agree and this is one of the scientific laws, so therefore the Universe and the Big-Bang were created because it could never come from nothing ''According to your own arguments''.

So you actually do agree that the BB was created with a cause and effect style therefore something had to start the event.. What did? God or nothing?

If you belief in ''Satan'' wasn't satan created himself?

 

[shawn001]

I know that the tricks of the devils are convincing people not to belief in God but you made such a error.

You addressed the Universe as a being so material objects can now calculate?...
Your argument is that when nothing does nothing.. nothing happens i would agree and this is one of the scientific laws, so therefore the Universe and the Big-Bang were created because it could never come from nothing ''According to your own arguments''.

So you actually do agree that the BB was created with a cause and effect style therefore something had to start the event.. What did? God or nothing?

If you belief in ''Satan'' wasn't satan created himself?

devils?


"What did? God or nothing?"

Those are not the only choices for one.

Second do you believe in evolution?

Third

"something had to start the event"

Its possible quantum fluctuations started the event, without breaking any natural laws.

 

[jasonwill2]

I know that the tricks of the devils are convincing people not to belief in God but you made such a error.

You addressed the Universe as a being so material objects can now calculate?...
Your argument is that when nothing does nothing.. nothing happens i would agree and this is one of the scientific laws, so therefore the Universe and the Big-Bang were created because it could never come from nothing ''According to your own arguments''.

So you actually do agree that the BB was created with a cause and effect style therefore something had to start the event.. What did? God or nothing?

If you belief in ''Satan'' wasn't satan created himself?

I am primarily a Pantheist, look it up and then it will make sense.

Also Satan is not "the devil", that word "devil" comes from the Indian word "Devi", who is the Goddess and wife of God in Hinduism. It has no link what-so-ever with the original Hebrew concept of "Satan", which is just a title for an accuser or adversary, like a spymaster or prosecutor in a court of law. It has nothing to do with "the prince of lies" or evil.

I was saying that God is all that there is, and that reality is merely God in a different form than his original. My argument was that before material reality, God was just a thought, a conscious thought. He decided the parameters of our Universe, than sacrificed his consciousness to create our material reality.

And on the Universal scale, yes, the universe does "calculate" in the form of our physical laws (gravity, electroweak, strong nuclear, thermodynamics, ect ect). But the matter itself? No, the matter is part of God, as the entire Universe is god, but the actual "thinking", or rather, the physical laws of the Universe, are programmed into the Universe and exist as abstract cause-and-effect mechanisms for deciding how the matter and energy behave. The matter and energy within itself doesn't "think", but rather the laws "think" and decide the outcome of any one situation based on the mathematical constructs.

In other words The Universe was created by God, but God had to become The Universe since he was all that existed. Laws of mathematics are universal and so he couldn't overcome conservation laws and create reality out of just nothing.. No amount of messing around will make 1 + 1 = 3.

 

[shawn001]

I am primarily a Pantheist, look it up and then it will make sense.

Also Satan is not "the devil", that word "devil" comes from the Indian word "Devi", who is the Goddess and wife of God in Hinduism. It has no link what-so-ever with the original Hebrew concept of "Satan", which is just a title for an accuser or adversary, like a spymaster or prosecutor in a court of law. It has nothing to do with "the prince of lies" or evil.

I was saying that God is all that there is, and that reality is merely God in a different form than his original. My argument was that before material reality, God was just a thought, a conscious thought. He decided the parameters of our Universe, than sacrificed his consciousness to create our material reality.

And on the Universal scale, yes, the universe does "calculate" in the form of our physical laws (gravity, electroweak, strong nuclear, thermodynamics, ect ect). But the matter itself? No, the matter is part of God, as the entire Universe is god, but the actual "thinking", or rather, the physical laws of the Universe, are programmed into the Universe and exist as abstract cause-and-effect mechanisms for deciding how the matter and energy behave. The matter and energy within itself doesn't "think", but rather the laws "think" and decide the outcome of any one situation based on the mathematical constructs.

In other words The Universe was created by God, but God had to become The Universe since he was all that existed. Laws of mathematics are universal and so he couldn't overcome conservation laws and create reality out of just nothing.. No amount of messing around will make 1 + 1 = 3.

Jason, while I respect all religions and Pantheism, you still have a lot of "god did it" and this falls into the same problems that all religions fall into, in explaining the beginings with no proof. Nor do we know this is the only universe for sure.


The "nothing" in QM isn't absolutelty nothings it is quantum fluctuations that appear and disappear out of seemingly "nowhere." Called virtual particles.

There is also equal amounts of negative and positive energy and mathematics cancel each other out to exactly 0. So you get a 0 energy universe.

 

[jasonwill2]

Jason, while I respect all religions and Pantheism, you still have a lot of "god did it" and this falls into the same problems that all religions fall into, in explaining the beginings with no proof. Nor do we know this is the only universe for sure.


The "nothing" in QM isn't absolutelty nothings it is quantum fluctuations that appear and disappear out of seemingly "nowhere." Called virtual particles.

There is also equal amounts of negative and positive energy and mathematics cancel each other out to exactly 0. So you get a 0 energy universe.

First of all, I present no proof and do not claim that my religion is science, it is merely metaphysical conjecture based on intuition and my interpretation of what science has shown us in light of my own spiritual constructs that I personally create. All of which is based on a quasi-LaVeyan form of Satanism in terms of practice and lifestyle. I make no predictions which can be tested, and therefore my religion is not science. But I feel that it is simply more than "god did it", as I do not say by which exact mechanisms that he did it, merely that he did it and is it. I feel this has a much more responsible approach than Creationism because it leaves every single little detail open to be discovered by science. If Science, a few years from now, somehow discovers how "god did it", and it directly contradicts my own Pantheistic beliefs, I would change them appropriately as more accurate information was presented. My beliefs may not be science, but they will not directly contradict empirical science. That's why my beliefs are Philosophy/religion, and not science. (though I think my beliefs have just as a fair shot, if not better for this attitude, than does any metaphysical conjecture)

Secondly, on the Quantum Mechanical thing, the concept of "negative energy", as far as I know, is just an idea of string theory that explains away why some strings can, according to the mathmatics, have uber-huge masses. "The negative and uberly massive strings mostly cancel out the positive uberly massive strings". That is the closest thing that I know of that resembles what you just said, but as it currently is String Theory is just fancy mathematics without any falsifiable predictions.

Other than that I am only aware of the situation where as matter and anti-matter particle pairs "borrow" energy to pop into existence, then collide with each other to "pay back" the energy. But that is hardly "negative energy" in any sense.

Otherwise I am not sure what you are talking about, either due to a language barrier, or due to my own lack of proper knowledge on the subject.

 

[shawn001]

I am aganostic, but have at times in the past leaned towards Pantheism. However, the more I study QM and possible multiverses the more I even question Pantheism.

But again I am agnostic and I would honestly say I don't know personally.

This will help explain it. Its not part of string theory though.

What's the Total Energy In the Universe?

What's the Total Energy In the Universe? | LifesLittleMysteries.com

 

[shawn001]

QM, is one of if not the most successful theories in all of science.

If you haven't seen these and knowing how you like science and the cosmos, well worth watching.


The Fabric of the Cosmos: What Is Space?

Surprising clues indicate that space is very much something and not nothing.
Acclaimed physicist Brian Greene reveals a mind-boggling reality beneath the surface of our everyday world

[youtube]wy9gXKwRpXc[/youtube]
The Fabric of the Cosmos: What Is Space? - YouTube


THE FABRIC OF THE COSMOS: THE ILLUSION OF TIME

"Time. We waste it, save it, kill it, make it. The world runs on it. Yet ask physicists what time actually is, and the answer might shock you: They have no idea. Even more surprising, the deep sense we have of time passing from present to past may be nothing more than an illusion. How can our understanding of something so familiar be so wrong? In search of answers, Brian Greene takes us on the ultimate time-traveling adventure, hurtling 50 years into the future before stepping into a wormhole to travel back to the past. Along the way, he will reveal a new way of thinking about time in which moments past, present, and future—from the reign of T. rex to the birth of your great-great-grandchildren—exist all at once. This journey will bring us all the way back to the Big Bang, where physicists think the ultimate secrets of time may be hidden. You'll never look at your wristwatch the same way again"

[youtube]sYOO2mOjo9s[/youtube]
The Fabric of the Cosmos - The Illusion of Time [Full - Ep 2 of 4] - YouTube


The Fabric of the Cosmos: Quantum Leap

Join Brian Greene on a wild ride into the weird realm of quantum physics, which governs the universe on the tiniest of scales. Greene brings quantum mechanics to life in a nightclub like no other, where objects pop in and out of existence, and things over here can affect others over there, instantaneously and without anything crossing the space between them. A century ago, during the initial shots in the quantum revolution, the best minds of a generation—including Albert Einstein and Niels Bohr—squared off in a battle for the soul of physics. How could the rules of the quantum world, which work so well to describe the behavior of individual atoms and their components, conflict so dramatically with the everyday rules that govern people, planets, and galaxies?

[youtube]8eZqQUdWURs[/youtube]
The Fabric of the Cosmos: Quantum Leap - YouTube


Fabric of the Cosmos: Universe or Multiverse?

Hard as it is to swallow, cutting-edge theories are suggesting that our universe may not be the only universe. Instead, it may be just one of an infinite number of universes that make up the "multiverse." In this show, Brian Greene takes us on a tour of this brave new theory at the frontier of physics, showing what some of these alternate realities might be like. Some universes may be almost indistinguishable from our own; others may contain variations of all of us, where we exist but with different families, careers, and life stories. In still others, reality may be so radically different from ours as to be unrecognizable. Brian Greene reveals why this radical new picture of the cosmos is getting serious attention from scientists. It won't be easy to prove, but if it's right, our understanding of space, time, and our place in the universe will never be the same.

[youtube]-FGgkfsMpCs[/youtube]
Fabric of the Cosmos: Universe or Multiverse? - YouTube

 

[jasonwill2]

QM, is one of if not the most successful theories in all of science.

If you haven't seen these and knowing how you like science and the cosmos, well worth watching.


The Fabric of the Cosmos: What Is Space?

Surprising clues indicate that space is very much something and not nothing.
Acclaimed physicist Brian Greene reveals a mind-boggling reality beneath the surface of our everyday world

[youtube]wy9gXKwRpXc[/youtube]
The Fabric of the Cosmos: What Is Space? - YouTube


THE FABRIC OF THE COSMOS: THE ILLUSION OF TIME

"Time. We waste it, save it, kill it, make it. The world runs on it. Yet ask physicists what time actually is, and the answer might shock you: They have no idea. Even more surprising, the deep sense we have of time passing from present to past may be nothing more than an illusion. How can our understanding of something so familiar be so wrong? In search of answers, Brian Greene takes us on the ultimate time-traveling adventure, hurtling 50 years into the future before stepping into a wormhole to travel back to the past. Along the way, he will reveal a new way of thinking about time in which moments past, present, and future—from the reign of T. rex to the birth of your great-great-grandchildren—exist all at once. This journey will bring us all the way back to the Big Bang, where physicists think the ultimate secrets of time may be hidden. You'll never look at your wristwatch the same way again"

[youtube]sYOO2mOjo9s[/youtube]
The Fabric of the Cosmos - The Illusion of Time [Full - Ep 2 of 4] - YouTube


The Fabric of the Cosmos: Quantum Leap

Join Brian Greene on a wild ride into the weird realm of quantum physics, which governs the universe on the tiniest of scales. Greene brings quantum mechanics to life in a nightclub like no other, where objects pop in and out of existence, and things over here can affect others over there, instantaneously and without anything crossing the space between them. A century ago, during the initial shots in the quantum revolution, the best minds of a generation—including Albert Einstein and Niels Bohr—squared off in a battle for the soul of physics. How could the rules of the quantum world, which work so well to describe the behavior of individual atoms and their components, conflict so dramatically with the everyday rules that govern people, planets, and galaxies?

[youtube]8eZqQUdWURs[/youtube]
The Fabric of the Cosmos: Quantum Leap - YouTube


Fabric of the Cosmos: Universe or Multiverse?

Hard as it is to swallow, cutting-edge theories are suggesting that our universe may not be the only universe. Instead, it may be just one of an infinite number of universes that make up the "multiverse." In this show, Brian Greene takes us on a tour of this brave new theory at the frontier of physics, showing what some of these alternate realities might be like. Some universes may be almost indistinguishable from our own; others may contain variations of all of us, where we exist but with different families, careers, and life stories. In still others, reality may be so radically different from ours as to be unrecognizable. Brian Greene reveals why this radical new picture of the cosmos is getting serious attention from scientists. It won't be easy to prove, but if it's right, our understanding of space, time, and our place in the universe will never be the same.

[youtube]-FGgkfsMpCs[/youtube]
Fabric of the Cosmos: Universe or Multiverse? - YouTube

I think I actually have the book "Fabric of the Cosmos", if this is the same series I have watched some of by Brian Greene that is based on his work. He has a book by the same name. But I havnt read it all since it seemed mostly like "The Elegant Universe 2.0"

EDIT: THIS IS BRIAN GREENE'S SHOW, SEEN IT AND OWN THE BOOK BY THE SAME NAME. havn't read it as I said before, as it seemed to be just his 1998 book, but updated. Thought after I realized that i would just wait for "3.0" to come out as it seemed to be virutally identical for some reason, and was oldish for then (2004).


Also Brian Greene is a string theorist, not a quantum mechanicalist, just of note. Though I agree that QM is fascinating.

Also on a personal level, I am really agnostic about polytheism, much less so about pantheism. if there is a "multiverse", it's still god, just god is apparently much bigger than we first thought =D

 

[shawn001]

I think I actually have the book "Fabric of the Cosmos", if this is the same series I have watched some of by Brian Greene that is based on his work. He has a book by the same name. But I havnt read it all since it seemed mostly like "The Elegant Universe 2.0"

EDIT: THIS IS BRIAN GREENE'S SHOW, SEEN IT AND OWN THE BOOK BY THE SAME NAME. havn't read it as I said before, as it seemed to be just his 1998 book, but updated. Thought after I realized that i would just wait for "3.0" to come out as it seemed to be virutally identical for some reason, and was oldish for then (2004).


Also Brian Greene is a string theorist, not a quantum mechanicalist, just of note. Though I agree that QM is fascinating.

Also on a personal level, I am really agnostic about polytheism, much less so about pantheism. if there is a "multiverse", it's still god, just god is apparently much bigger than we first thought =D

these just came out in 2011.

he did do a series on string theory I believe called the Elegant Universe, but that is not what these are really about.

QM can be tested, string theory not so much. he is a well known theoretical physicist.

 

[jasonwill2]

these just came out in 2011.

he did do a series on string theory I believe called the Elegant Universe, but that is not what these are really about.

QM can be tested, string theory not so much. he is a well known theoretical physicist.

Sorry for the caps lol didnt want parts to go unnoticed. I've seen a number of the episodes. I was just saying that he had a book by the same name.

Actually, I'll need to catch those missed episodes but alas I lack the time to watch through them all online since I only get on every few days at most. Maybe I can save them all in my broswer before I leave then watch them at home throughout the day. (hopefully my computer doesn't crash from all the tabs =p)

But yes, I am familiar with his work. I also recall vaugely about reading of hearing from somewhere about the Quantum Fluculations causing the Big Bang.

But perhaps a question like "what caused the big bang?" isn't answerable, it all seems to just be speculation at this point in our development. However should an answer come, I would greatly like to hear what Science says on the matter.

I may be a theist and a religious guy, but I'm a religious guy that knows that Science is extremely valuable in terms of objectivity; I won't believe something that is directly violated by empirical data.

 

[shawn001]

Jason

Hawkings Opinion

"Quantum Fluculations causing the Big Bang."

[youtube]WQhd05ZVYWg[/youtube]
Curiosity with Stephen Hawking, Did God Create the Universe? - YouTube

But
What's the Total Energy In the Universe?

What's the Total Energy In the Universe? | LifesLittleMysteries.com



FYI

"Lawrence Maxwell Krauss (born May 27, 1954) is a Canadian-American theoretical physicist who is a professor of physics, Foundation Professor of the School of Earth and Space Exploration, and director of the Origins Project at Arizona State University. He is the author of several bestselling books, including The Physics of Star Trek and A Universe from Nothing. He is an advocate of scientific skepticism,[1] science education, and the science of morality."

Lawrence M. Krauss - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


'A Universe From Nothing' by Lawrence Krauss, AAI 2009

Lawrence Krauss gives a talk on our current picture of the universe, how it will end, and how it could have come from nothing.

[youtube]7ImvlS8PLIo[/youtube]
'A Universe From Nothing' by Lawrence Krauss, AAI 2009 - YouTube


When they say "nothing" here they are talking about QM fluctuations, but don't exactly know where they come from.

 

[shawn001]

Just fyi

This was Roger Penrose.

Researchers Find Evidence of Other Universes Lurking in the Cosmic Background

Our poor universe shows bruises from collisions with other universes

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-12/
researchers-find-evidence-other-universes-cosmic-microwave-background


Controversial Study Suggests Our Universe is One of Many

Controversial Study Suggests Our Universe is One of Many | Space.com

Soon they will be getting new Data from the Planck satellite that will give them more precise measurements, so it may give them new clues or answers.

 

[jasonwill2]

Just fyi

This was Roger Penrose.

Researchers Find Evidence of Other Universes Lurking in the Cosmic Background

Our poor universe shows bruises from collisions with other universes

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-12/
researchers-find-evidence-other-universes-cosmic-microwave-background


Controversial Study Suggests Our Universe is One of Many

Controversial Study Suggests Our Universe is One of Many | Space.com

Soon they will be getting new Data from the Planck satellite that will give them more precise measurements, so it may give them new clues or answers.

Holy **** when did I miss that? I'll need to look at it in a bit. I really at one point looked up to Roger Penrose and got one of his books. Could only read the first 100 pages before I went "WTF" at most of the math (minus the part about Black Hole Entropy for some reason) because I didn't know higher mathmatics.

So this new information will be a real treat for me

 

[shawn001]

Glad to be able to show it to you.

 

[shawn001]

Jason, we use to get a terabyte of information a year from cosmology and astronomy. Now we get a terabyte a day. There are not enough people trained to go through that much information even.

 

[jasonwill2]

Jason, we use to get a terabyte of information a year from cosmology and astronomy. Now we get a terabyte a day. There are not enough people trained to go through that much information even.

0.0

Say how much would that job pay? hehe

 

[shawn001]

lots of years at school to become an astrophysicist or astronomer or cosmologist. Will be going through that data for many many years to come and increasing it even more as we go. I think a lot of people don't go into it as much as for the money as because they love it.