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What if creationism is true?

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
If creationism is true, that would not necessarily tell us who God is, and what his agenda are.

Since He created us, He would probably want to communicate to us specifying that He wants us to worship Him and why. So now that the Creator has a message to all of humanity, it has to be only One consistent message from the Creator to the mankind from beginning till the end of times. So now it is up to you to find out what that message is.

So while you keep doing your research and try to find that message, you ask the Creator to show you the True path. This is where Spirituality comes into play. As a fellow human being and a well wisher, I would like to suggest to anyone in this situation the following. For a while, set aside all religions, all holy books and have a heartfelt conversation with the Creator directly in your heart and mind - ask Him to guide you towards Him if He truly exists. Be sincere regarding your intention to follow Him if you find the True Message. And I have no doubt in my mind that you will be guided to the True Message and you will have confirmation/confidence in your heart that this is it.

After all, it doesn't make sense that the Creator wants us to worship Him and when we seek Him sincerely, that He would play hide and seek and will not show us the path towards Him. At least not according to my understanding of the Creator.

As stated in the Holy Qur'an :
"When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way." (Al Qur'an 2:186)

Also, Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) said that God said: "He who draws close to Me(God) a hand's span, I(God) will draw close to him an arm's length. And whoever draws near Me(God) an arm's length, I(God) will draw near him a fathom's length. And whoever comes to Me(God) walking, I(God) will go to him running."

Easiest solution - but sincerity is the key.
 

Vile Atheist

Loud and Obnoxious
Since He created us, He would probably want to communicate to us specifying that He wants us to worship Him and why.

I have not received any such communications. Perhaps my wireless router frequency is set to the wrong channel?

So now that the Creator has a message to all of humanity, it has to be only One consistent message from the Creator to the mankind from beginning till the end of times. So now it is up to you to find out what that message is.

So if we don't solve a magical riddle, we roast in hell forever? Why isn't the message consistent? There are so many different religions and interpretations. Everyone has their own thoughts and beliefs. Obviously God sucks at communicating information.

So while you keep doing your research and try to find that message, you ask the Creator to show you the True path. This is where Spirituality comes into play. As a fellow human being and a well wisher, I would like to suggest to anyone in this situation the following. For a while, set aside all religions, all holy books and have a heartfelt conversation with the Creator directly in your heart and mind - ask Him to guide you towards Him if He truly exists.

But I don't know if God exists. Why would I ask something I don't know exists to guide me to its existence? It makes no sense.

Be sincere regarding your intention to follow Him if you find the True Message. And I have no doubt in my mind that you will be guided to the True Message and you will have confirmation/confidence in your heart that this is it.

Been there, done that. I am a former fundamentalist Christian. I spent years "searching for God". It doesn't work. It's a lie. You're only duping yourself.

After all, it doesn't make sense that the Creator wants us to worship Him and when we seek Him sincerely, that He would play hide and seek and will not show us the path towards Him. At least not according to my understanding of the Creator.

You're right. It makes no sense at all. So why would "the Creator" deny me that knowledge when I have sincerely searched? Either your God isn't real, or if he is, he's an unrepentant ***.

As stated in the Holy Qur'an :
"When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way." (Al Qur'an 2:186)

Also, Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) said that God said: "He who draws close to Me(God) a hand's span, I(God) will draw close to him an arm's length. And whoever draws near Me(God) an arm's length, I(God) will draw near him a fathom's length. And whoever comes to Me(God) walking, I(God) will go to him running."

Easiest solution - but sincerity is the key.

As stated in The God Delusion:

"“We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.”
― Richard Dawkins

Also, as the late, great Hitchens (pbuh) said: "God did not create man in his own image. Evidently, it was quite the other way about, which is the painless explanation for the profusion of gods and religions, and the fratricide both between and among faiths, that we see all about us and that has so retarded the development of civilization.” http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/3956.Christopher_Hitchens
http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/1194.Richard_Dawkins
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
Since He created us, He would probably want to communicate to us specifying that He wants us to worship Him and why. So now that the Creator has a message to all of humanity, it has to be only One consistent message from the Creator to the mankind from beginning till the end of times. So now it is up to you to find out what that message is.

This doesn't have to be true. Deism posits that there is a god who created all things, set natural laws in motion, and then just stepped back and has nothing to do with the creation. Assuming there is a god who created all things, you would think that if he had a message for all mankind, he would have done a little bit better of a job of informing us. Personally, I think that if there is a creator god, then the best choice would be pandeism. I see no reason to think that if there was something that made all of this, that there's any reason to think it has some message for us.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
False. You can choose to believe that God created the initial, unicelluar life forms, then they evolved.

But it would still be an argument for Intelligent Design, so this would still be a problem for atheists.

Science doesn't "prove" things - stop using unscientific terms in a scientific debate. Science produces "evidence" of things, and as it currently stands the evidence of evolution is viewed by the the vast majority of scientists and experts in the field as being more overwhelming and numerous than the evidence for gravity.

Im not in to the semantic games. There is no evidence for evolution. All of the proposed evidence could easily mean common designer.

Utterly false. Even if evolution were thoroughly refuted, that doesn't lend any credibility whatsoever to your presupposition that it was done my any kind of supernatural, all-powerful intelligence. Falsifying one idea does not demonstrate another.

Um yes it does. If there are only two explanations for a cause, and one is negated, then the other wins by default. This is basic logic and reason.

"Prove" it.

Well, based on the fact that no man has ever "on the record" reported animals producing different kinds of animals, then we have no reason to believe that evolution occurred. Evolution is a religion. It is your religious beliefs based on the origins of human life. There is no evidence that man evovled from apes. None. All you can say is "we have similar dna" and all blah blah blah, but this doesnt prove that we evovled. This could mean that the Intelligent Designer used the same blueprint for his creation, which makes sense, considering the fact that our DNA acts as a built in instruction manuel on how to make us.

Evolution has already been observed. Deal with it.

Oh, so you observed a man evovling from an ape?? Wow. Do you have video of this?
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
Why don't you spare us the repeated demonstrations of the fact?

Well when it stops being true, I will stop repeating it

This is rich. You have yet to ask a coherent question about evolution, let alone a tough one.

Why dont you look at previous posts on the issue i raised about the "gender problem". Go ahead, see if you can provide an adequate answer on how does every single organism that has a gender just happen to have what is needed to reproduce with the opposite sex, and vice versa. Go ahead and explain how this process could have occurred over a course of a million years, while reproducing at the same time. I will wait.
 

Vile Atheist

Loud and Obnoxious
There is no evidence for evolution. All of the proposed evidence could easily mean common designer

"There's no evidence for evolution. The evidence for evolution proves my pseudoscience right."

Beautiful lol.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
You have never observed God. You have never observed Jesus, or his disciples, or a virgin birth, or the crucifixion. You have never observed any of the characters in the Old Testament. You have never observed any of the characters in the New Testament.

And yet, you foolishly believe in all of these.

The difference is, I admit that my belief is a faith based religion. You people, on the other hand, are making it seem as if what you believe are down right facts, which is not the case at all. I believe this complex process of life comes from an intelligent designer. Just like I look at any other complex structure in evey day life and recognize intelligent design. You believe that this complex process of life comes from a blind, unguided, and unintelligent process. If you want to believe that nonsense, fine. But dont make it seem as if it is a fact. So far, science still hasn't been able to provide good evidence of how life could originate from nonlife. So this unguided and blind process is more smart than scientists, if it was able to do something that intelligent beings are not able to do, and that is produce life from nonlife.
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
The difference is, I admit that my belief is a faith based religion. You people, on the other hand, are making it seem as if what you believe are down right facts, which is not the case at all. I believe this complex process of life comes from an intelligent designer. Just like I look at any other complex structure in evey day life and recognize intelligent design. You believe that this complex process of life comes from a blind, unguided, and unintelligent process. If you want to believe that nonsense, fine. But dont make it seem as if it is a fact. So far, science still hasn't been able to provide good evidence of how life could originate from nonlife. So this unguided and blind process is more smart than scientists, if it was able to do something that intelligent beings are not able to do, and that is produce life from nonlife.

Every time someone has offered a piece of evidence, your only response is "goddidit". You don't debate the point, you don't offer any evidence of your own. You just say it's god's work and then insult those who are actually bringing evidence and attempting to debate the topic. But that is the general broken record response of conservative Christians in response to science. You just expect us to believe you and your point of view, when you haven't offered anything worth accepting. So, ignorance is bliss? Dishonesty is the best policy? Are you actually wanting to debate the topic, or just insult everyone who disagrees with you? If it comes down to what you're offering, and what I can experience with the five senses, things that are explainable by science, then I'll choose science. At least then I'm relying on my mind and not blind faith.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
You didn't name any animals, I did. And I mentioned "Dingo and 37 other subspecies". A dingo is not a dog, even though it is a subspecies to gray wolf, just like the dog.

Its funny you say a dingo isnt a dog, when on wikipedia, the first eight words of the dingo article describes it as a "free roaming dog".

The evidence that I provided you with points towards evolution. If that immense amount of evidence doesn't make you see clearly, then nothing will. And as I said: Of cource it could be a designer. But nothing suggests it. If we new that a hyper intelligent, omnicient being existed, then it would be logical to at least take it into account. This is not, in itself, a proof of that. You're assuming what you wan't to prove. You assume that an intelligent designer exists, therfore he could be the source of life, and therefore all life has the DNA, and therfore God must be the cause.

I dont assume at all. Our DNA is so complex that the odds of it just "coming all together" by a blind, and unguided process are astronomical. You cant get this kind of complexity from unguidedness. Why is it that its ok to recgonize intelligent design when it comes to anything else other than the complexity of life?? A cell is more complicated than a space shuttle. A SPACE SHUTTLE!!! But its ok to recognize a space shuttle as intelligent design, and not the cell??? Why? Because you know that intelligent design points towards a creator, that is why. This is very disingenous.

So? There is more than the number of chromosomes that specify a species. It's not like Armadillios and the Guinea pig are the same species just cause they have the same amount of chromosomes.

Ok, well then I shouldnt see any more crap about humans evovling from apes just because we have almost the same number of chromosomes then, right?

Of cource it didn't prove it, I know that. I merely showed you that there are suggestions out there (although no theories) about what could have happened. What I mean is that it's not like you have to choose between ID or the Miller-Urey experiment. Again, the lack of proof doesn't suggest ID.

Failed suggestions need not apply

lol... that's what the religious people have been saying since the beginning of time. "There will never be a naturalistic explanation for thunder. It is so obvious that it is Thor, the god of thunder that is the source" or "There is no way that that big ball of light in the sky could ever be explained, it is obviously the god Helios in all his glory"

Well, on the Christian view, God created everything, even thunder. So therefore, that is about as close as we can get to the concept of "Thor". Just because we understand how thunder can strike or make itself visible doesn't answer the question of where did it get its absolute origins from.

Do you realize how arrogant it is, now when we have the explanation? That is why future generation will laugh at our ignorance, because of the people that thought that we had reached our limits regarding the naturalistic explanations of our Universe and life.

Science will never be able to answer why did the universe begin to exist. It is not logically possible. Nothing can be the origin of its own being.

False. ID doesn't have any religious implications. If it were to be proven that ID was correct, we would still be completly ignorant regarding the will of this intelligent designer, if he even cared, if he was even still here etc. ID is often covered up in alot of (mostly christian) religious bullcrap but in itself it doesn't imply any religion at all.

Yes it does. I didnt mean "religious implications" in terms of worship. I meant it in terms of recognizing the fact that there is a Creator of the universe. Whether you choose to worship it or not is your business.


Nope, not that either. Not if you, by transcendent, mean in regard to a materialistic universe. It could, as I said earlier, just as likely be aliens.

Transcendent, meaning beyond the materialistic universe. Aliens, if they exist, are still beings made up of matter. Now if you postulate anything beyond that, then you are getting in the supernatural realm, which would further my point.

It's logic reasoning, and I am aware that it is in your eyes regarded as silly even though you try to use it all the time. If we don't know, then we don't know. There is no evidence of design, no matter how little evidence there is for a naturalistic explanation of the origin of life. The lack of naturalistic explanation for thunder, a few hundred years ago, was no more a reason to believe in an intelligent thundergod than your example.

The complexity we have in our DNA is evidence of intelligent design. If you conclude that things of less complexity are designed, why would you hesitate to reach the same conclusion on something more complex??? This is a double standard.

Ok. Then why don't you believe it was aliens?

It depends on what you mean by aliens. If you mean aliens that are made up of matter and exist in the material world, then no, because nothing within the universe can be said to be the cause of the universe. If by aliens you mean supernatural beings that exist beyond the materialistic world, then yes, that is possible. But I dont believe in supernatural aliens because of my belief in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Yes of course... and bats are birds, and man made from mud, and women from mud and a rib, and you can fit all species of the earth on noahs ark, and people can rise from the grave and it's possible for some human to walk on liquid water, and it's possible to... lol... just lol:facepalm:

Bats being birds? Well, that is how they classified animals. They were wrong according to our animal classification, and we were wrong according to theirs. Animal classifications are subjective and can change at any given time. That is easy. Second, it makes more sense to believe that God created man from dirt, than to believe that the dirt came alive on its own, producing a functional and intelligent human being, or ape (or whatever it is you believe). Third, it was only two of each kind of species, and the ark was extremely huge. Fourth, Jesus is God, and yes, God can rise from the dead and walk on the water. These small acts are childs play to a being with divine power.

Um... it's called the laws of physics, and as you might have realized during your life, they're hard to mess with. Try break them and you'll see. It's not random that when you drop a pen, it falls towards the middle of the earth until it hits something. It will happen every time. And it's not random that the right molecules were formed during that and that sort of condition. It is forced to happen by the laws of physics. What might seem a bit random is that the earth happened to have the right conditions, but when taking into account how many planets there is out there it's not that strange that at least one ended up with the right conditions for life.

The "many worlds" hypothesis lol. First of all, there are only 8 planets that we know of, so there isn't that many out there that we can see. Second, even the laws of physics began to exist at the moment of the big bang. So the question of origins applies to the universe and every thing within it.
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
CotW said:
Ok, well then I shouldnt see any more crap about humans evovling from apes just because we have almost the same number of chromosomes then, right?

producing a functional and intelligent human being, or ape (or whatever it is you believe).

Again, as I stated earlier, it seems that you really don't know anything about evolution. No one has stated, other than creationists, that man came from apes. Evolution states that man and apes share a common ancestor. Seriously, read.

Second, it makes more sense to believe that God created man from dirt, than to believe that the dirt came alive on its own, producing a functional and intelligent human being,

So you believe that man is made of dirt? The last time I checked, man was made of atoms, like all other things, and is comprised mostly of water. No dirt there.

First of all, there are only 8 planets that we know of, so there isn't that many out there that we can see.

Scientists have found dozens of extra-solar planets. A few of these planets are in what's called the "Goldilocks Zone" or the habitable zone of a particular star that has all the elements required for life.

I guess it's easy to deny the claims of science when you don't even know what they are. You can't even get these basic facts right, but we're supposed to take you seriously?

Also, check out my post #97 for how science has handled the unscientific claims of the bible.

Also, check out my post #86 on a view of the origin of life.
 
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Vile Atheist

Loud and Obnoxious
The difference is, I admit that my belief is a faith based religion. You people, on the other hand, are making it seem as if what you believe are down right facts, which is not the case at all.

Evolution: Observed.
God: Unobserved.

Evolution -1, God -0.

I believe this complex process of life comes from an intelligent designer. Just like I look at any other complex structure in evey day life and recognize intelligent design.

Evolution: Mountains of evidence.
God: Your conjecture.

Evolution -2, God-0.

You believe that this complex process of life comes from a blind, unguided, and unintelligent process. If you want to believe that nonsense, fine. But dont make it seem as if it is a fact.

Evolution: Errors in genetic copying result in mutations being passed onto offspring over a long period of time. These mutations get selected for, depending on the adaptability to the environment, via natural selection. Eventually the genetic differences become so vast that viable offspring cannot be produced between the generations of organisms and speciation occurs.
God: A bronze age myth.

Evolution -3, God -0.

So far, science still hasn't been able to provide good evidence of how life could originate from nonlife.

Evolution: Not abiogenesis.
God: Not real.

Evolution -4, God -0.

So this unguided and blind process is more smart than scientists, if it was able to do something that intelligent beings are not able to do, and that is produce life from nonlife.

Evolution: Produced people like me who don't say "more smart".
God: Produced people like you who have no idea what evolution is.

Evolution -5, God -0.

Darwin has conquered the field of battle.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
lol. First of all, there are only 8 planets that we know of, so there isn't that many out there that we can see....


Actually, astronomers have found many other planets. You might want to check out NASA's Kepler Mission.


This seems to be a reoccurring problem in your posts. Making statements in ignorance of facts. Like saying things such as humans descending from apes, (they didn't) and convoluting evolutionary biology with abiogenesis. This does nothing to enforce the validity of your position.
Nor does leaving out portions of text on websites simply to enforce your position. Such as your wiki quote on dingos.
Its original ancestors are thought to have arrived with humans from southeast Asia thousands of years ago, when dogs were still relatively undomesticated and closer to their wild Asian grey wolf parent species, Canis lupus. Since then, living largely apart from people and other dogs, together with the demands of Australian ecology, has caused them to develop features and instincts that distinguish them from all other canines. Dingoes have maintained ancient characteristics that unite them, along with their closest relatives from southeast Asia and the Pacific, into a taxon named after them, Canis lupus dingo, and which separate them from dogs classified as Canis lupus familiaris.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
We know found about 1500 extrasolar planets and about 170 solar systems outside our own and we know there are way moe then that out there. Billions
 

Vile Atheist

Loud and Obnoxious
We know found about 1500 extrasolar planets and about 170 solar systems outside our own and we know there are way moe then that out there. Billions

If we humans are so special, created by an "intelligent designer" who absolutely screwed up designing us, our planet, and the universe, why did this (un)intelligent designer create such a vast and wasteful universe? Why not put us in a small bubble to be more efficient?

Perhaps our ID friend can answer that.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
Every time someone has offered a piece of evidence, your only response is "goddidit".

This is not the case at all. I only use the "goddidit" response when science is incapable of explaining something. Not only is science incapable of explaining it now, they will forever be incapable of explaining it. So when science doesn't have the means to explain something, I say "goddidit". Science doesn't provide an answer how and why the universe began to exist. So, it becomes naturally, using my common sense, to conclude that if the universe began to exist (universe, meaning all space, time, matter and energy), then whatever gave it its beginning must exist beyond the universe. This is just the logical thing to conclude. SCIENCE CANNOT EXPLAIN ORIGINS. So it becomes necessary to conclude that God did it. Science explains how the natural world works based on natural law. It does not explain the origins of nature and natural law. Apparently you people dont know the difference.

You don't debate the point, you don't offer any evidence of your own.

I did offer evidence. The complexity of the human cells and DNA. You cant get this kind of complexity from natural means. It just cant happen.

You just say it's god's work and then insult those who are actually bringing evidence and attempting to debate the topic.

What I am saying is, the evidence that has been presented doesn't prove evolution. It could mean common designer. But before we even begin to talk about evolution, we have to ask how did life come from nonlife, and science does NOT have an answer for this yet. Theism provides the best explanation for this. Life did not come from life. Life came from life, which is what every single person in here has always observed. No one has ever seen life come from nonlife, nor is there any current evidence of life coming from nonlife. So to believe that life came from nonlife is to rely on the unseen, therefore, using faith. But wait, I thought only theists used faith? No, naturalists use faith as well.

But that is the general broken record response of conservative Christians in response to science. You just expect us to believe you and your point of view, when you haven't offered anything worth accepting.

Um, no. We can accept science as explaining how the world operates. We dont accept science as explaining absolute origins. Because that would be illogical. Science cannot be used to explain the origin of the universe. Nothing can be the orgin of its own domain. Impossible. Now why is this so hard to accept??? There is no getting past this. Science cannot be used to explain why the universe began to exist. So therefore, we have to posit a transcendent cause. From that point, naturalists all of a sudden come to a screetching halt, because they know that they are going to the supernatural realm. Thats what this is all about.

So, ignorance is bliss? Dishonesty is the best policy? Are you actually wanting to debate the topic, or just insult everyone who disagrees with you? If it comes down to what you're offering, and what I can experience with the five senses, things that are explainable by science, then I'll choose science. At least then I'm relying on my mind and not blind faith.

Have you seen evolution take place?? So what part of your senses tells you that animals produced animals other than their own kind in the distant past?? What part of your senses tells you that life came from nonlife. It is you who are being dishonest. Science have not proven anything in regards to evolution or life from nonlife.
 

Vile Atheist

Loud and Obnoxious
I did offer evidence. The complexity of the human cells and DNA. You cant get this kind of complexity from natural means. It just cant happen.
Wow! Where to start?

First, that isn't evidence. That's an observation. Evolution takes that observation, pieces the evidence together, and comes up with a coherent, evidence-based theory that makes future predictions. These predictions have been realized in lab. In fact, it's where a lot of recent modern medicine comes from. Evidence connects an observation to a cause.

Second, "It just can't happen" is an argument from ignorance. You don't know everything. We can find new, undiscovered evidence in the future that either reinforces evolution or discards it completely (though this is unlikely).

Third, I think you're obscuring the FACT of evolution with the THEORY of evolution. These are two separate things. The fact of evolution is that things do, indeed, evolve. This isn't in dispute except by creationists who need their safety blanket of a God. No creationist has been able to publish a peer-reviewed paper in a science journal overturning evolution to this date.

The theory of evolution, though, explains the mechanism by which populations evolve and speciate. There is minor debate, even within the scientific community about really specific aspects of it, but the basic theory is universally accepted by those who don't turn a blind eye to evidence in lieu of their irrational "faith" and dogma.

Fourth, even if tomorrow, you were to entirely disprove the theory of evolution completely. Even if you were to somehow erase our minds so that we don't remember observing evolution happening among bacterial cultures. You still have not made one baby step towards proving ID correct. I've watched a lot of ID videos. I bet you a remedial high school science class could debunk those videos. They're garbage.

Fifthly, let me make an argument that holds equivalent water to yours: I have observed cows grazing in a farmer's field. Therefore...magic cow pixies brought them there. I JUST DON'T SEE ANY OTHER WAY IT COULD HAVE HAPPENED!!!!
 

fishy

Active Member
CotW said:
Have you seen evolution take place?? So what part of your senses tells you that animals produced animals other than their own kind in the distant past?? What part of your senses tells you that life came from nonlife. It is you who are being dishonest. Science have not proven anything in regards to evolution or life from nonlife.
You continue to demonstrate a very poor grasp of even the term evolution. Have you ever used antibiotics?
 
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