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What if these Christian beliefs are not true?

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
It all started in 1844 with William Miller. It was from the great disappointment that other ideas were formulated, one which became the JW path.

Yet in 1844, when William Miller was expecting the Return of Christ, the Bab gave his Message and said;

"I am, I am, the promised One! I am the One whose name you have for a thousand years invoked, at whose mention you have risen, whose advent you have longed to witness, and the hour of whose Revelation you have prayed God to hasten." Bab

If you are aware of the 1260 prophecy of the Bible, AD1844 was also AH1260.

Regards Tony
One of the prophecies in Daniel starts when the abomination of desolation takes place. William Miller starts counting the years with the rebuilding of Jerusalem. So, how did he and Baha'is justify doing that?

Then which of the six "I260" prophecies? As I've asked several times, how can they all start in 622AD and stop in 1844 when all of the events in the Bible start and stop at different times? Like the "Two Witnesses" preach and teach for I260 days/years and then are dead for 1260 days/years and Baha'i claims both those started with the Hegira in 622AD and ended with the declaration of the Bab in 1844.

What's troublesome is that it doesn't seem to matter to Baha'is. Is it like horseshoes when close enough still scores you some points? It makes me question just how much personal investigating Baha'is really do. Close enough and sounding good seems to have been enough to convince Baha'is that something is true. Then, once a person believes, all of it must be true, because your prophet, Baha'u'llah said so... Or the Bab said so.... Or Abdul Baha' said so... Or Shoghi Effendi said so.... And now the Universal House of Justice says so. So, Baha'is believe it.

But, I guess it's okay, all religions assume things and take them by faith and call them "absolutely" true.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
William Miller, who is generally credited with the founding of the Adventist Church, predicted that Christ would return sometime between March 1843 and March 1844. As a result, some then expected to be taken away to heaven. like you he did not know what he was talking about
I don't believe it was a "literal" interpretation of the Bible. What are your beliefs about it? And also things that Fundy Christians believe... Like the tribulation, Armageddon, the anti-Christ and false prophet?

I don't see how any of those things happened prior to the coming of the Baha'i prophet, who claimed to be the return of Christ. But then, they claim that the Bab was also a manifestation, so the claim they make is that the Bible predicted there would be "twin" manifestations. And they use the "Three Woes" in Revelation to support that belief. The first "Woe" they say was Muhammad, and the second one was the Bab, and that the third "Woe" comes quickly and was Baha'u'llah.

Which I don't believe. But I also don't believe the 7th Day Adventist, LDS, Fundy Christians and sorry, but JW's too. But I like listening to all of their beliefs and how they came up with those beliefs.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yes.

Bahá'í views on evolution

...from the beginning of man's existence on this planet until he assumed his present shape, form, and condition, a long time must have elapsed, and he must have traversed many stages before reaching his present condition. But from the beginning of his existence man has been a distinct species.
Baháʼí views on science - Wikipedia
That shows me it's not from God. Anyway, take care, thanks for the discussion.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
That's over-generalizing religions. And it ignores that some religions have some very strange beliefs and practices.
I see that is complementary to all God given Faiths, but shows us that man makes many strange beliefs and practices that are not of God.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
One of the prophecies in Daniel starts when the abomination of desolation takes place. William Miller starts counting the years with the rebuilding of Jerusalem. So, how did he and Baha'is justify doing that?

Then which of the six "I260" prophecies? As I've asked several times, how can they all start in 622AD and stop in 1844 when all of the events in the Bible start and stop at different times? Like the "Two Witnesses" preach and teach for I260 days/years and then are dead for 1260 days/years and Baha'i claims both those started with the Hegira in 622AD and ended with the declaration of the Bab in 1844.

What's troublesome is that it doesn't seem to matter to Baha'is. Is it like horseshoes when close enough still scores you some points? It makes me question just how much personal investigating Baha'is really do. Close enough and sounding good seems to have been enough to convince Baha'is that something is true. Then, once a person believes, all of it must be true, because your prophet, Baha'u'llah said so... Or the Bab said so.... Or Abdul Baha' said so... Or Shoghi Effendi said so.... And now the Universal House of Justice says so. So, Baha'is believe it.

But, I guess it's okay, all religions assume things and take them by faith and call them "absolutely" true.
The 1260 prophecy does not need a start date CG.

The fulfillment of God's promises in the year AH1260, showed us that all those prophecies were referring to AH1260. William Miller used other means to come to AD1844, which he did not know was also the year 1260 in Islam.

Now we can work backwards to see how Muhammad and Islam is cleary foretold in the Bible. We can see the Two Witnesses were Muhammad and Ali. That the faith they started became the beast because of the broken covernant.

You just have to see it with different frame of reference.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The 1260 prophecy does not need a start date CG.

The fulfillment of God's promises in the year AH1260, showed us that all those prophecies were referring to AH1260. William Miller used other means to come to AD1844, which he did not know was also the year 1260 in Islam.

Now we can work backwards to see how Muhammad and Islam is cleary foretold in the Bible. We can see the Two Witnesses were Muhammad and Ali. That the faith they started became the beast because of the broken covernant.

You just have to see it with different frame of reference.

Regards Tony
You have six "prophecies" from Revelation that are used as meaning 1260 years. You need a start date, and you provide it, the Hegira in 622AD. How did you arrive at that? And, again all six events in Revelation start and stop at different times. There is no reason to think that they all could have started and ended at the same time.

I asked one of the Muslims here if the year 1260 had any significance in Islam. He said "no". So, it strange that the Christian story, Revelation, has something in it that Baha'is can convert into meaning 1260 lunar years, not solar years, and have it start at the beginning of the Islamic calendar, yet nothing is Islam about the year 1260?

There must be something. Do you know of any Islamic prophecy? If not, then really, really strange that the Christian Scriptures would have and not something in the Quran.
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
The 1260 prophecy does not need a start date CG.

The fulfillment of God's promises in the year AH1260, showed us that all those prophecies were referring to AH1260. William Miller used other means to come to AD1844, which he did not know was also the year 1260 in Islam.

Now we can work backwards to see how Muhammad and Islam is cleary foretold in the Bible. We can see the Two Witnesses were Muhammad and Ali. That the faith they started became the beast because of the broken covernant.

You just have to see it with different frame of reference.

Regards Tony
Two Witnesses ... of what? why two ?
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Two Witnesses ... of what? why two ?

Revelation Chapter 11 introduces us to Muhammad and Islam.


By verse 2 it gives the 1260 year prophecy stated as 42 months (42 × 30 days = 1260 days = 1260 years, as in the Bible each day is appointed as a year in prophecy)

Then verse 3 says the Two Witnesses were given power to give prophecy for 1260 years. This was Muhammad and Ali.

By verse 7 the beast arises and this is the Umayyad caliphate who broke the Covernant of Muhammad and did not follow the appointed Successors Ali.

The dead bodies laying in the street represents the Umayyad caliphate Islam which was a faith of laws without the Spirit given by Muhammad, basically a dead faith. This Islam lasted until the year 1260, or 1844.

The 3 & 1/2 days is another way of offering the 1260 years. 3 & 1/2 days = 3 & 1/2 years = 42 months = 1260 days = 1260 years.

By verse 11 it is introducing the Bab, Muhammad was the first Woe, the Bab is the 2nd Woe and Baha'u'llah I the 3rd Woe that came quickly.

The 24 Elders are the Babs 19 letters of the living (Disciples) and 5 others.

Both Revelation 11 and 12 have been explained in detail by Abdul'baha. You can find those explanations in Some Answered Questions chapter 1, linked following.


Regards Tony
 
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
You have six "prophecies" from Revelation that are used as meaning 1260 years. You need a start date, and you provide it, the Hegira in 622AD. How did you arrive at that? And, again all six events in Revelation start and stop at different times. There is no reason to think that they all could have started and ended at the same time.

I asked one of the Muslims here if the year 1260 had any significance in Islam. He said "no". So, it strange that the Christian story, Revelation, has something in it that Baha'is can convert into meaning 1260 lunar years, not solar years, and have it start at the beginning of the Islamic calendar, yet nothing is Islam about the year 1260?

There must be something. Do you know of any Islamic prophecy? If not, then really, really strange that the Christian Scriptures would have and not something in the Quran.
I do not need a start date CG, the prophecy is self explanatory. Islam was Abrogated by God on 23rd May 1844 by the Message of the Bab.

Screenshot_20240802-140456_Chrome.jpg

That's it, plain and simple, Islam lasted to the year 1260.

Muhammad and Ali were given power to give prophecy to 1260.

Regards Tony
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Then verse 3 says the Two Witnesses were given power to give prophecy for 1260 years. This was Muhammad and Ali.
Make up your mind... They "prophecy" for 1260 lunar years.
By verse 7 the beast arises and this is the Umayyad caliphate who broke the Covernant of Muhammad and did not follow the appointed Successors Ali.

The dead bodies laying in the street represents the Umayyad caliphate Islam which was a faith of laws without the Spirit given by Muhammad, basically a dead faith. This Islam lasted until the year 1260, or 1844.
So, while Muhammad and Ali, who are already dead, but are still giving their prophecy you say until the year 1260, the beast arises, which you say is the Umayyad dynasty, that started in 661AD and ended in 750AD. This beast kills the two witnesses and they are dead from 622 until 1260, then come back to life. Here's the quote from Revelation...

Rev 11:7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.​
11 But after the three and a half days the breath[b] of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet...​
It says they had finished their testimony. A testimony that lasted 1260 days, that you turn into years. And then the beast kills them and they are dead for 3 1/2 days, which you convert to be 1260 years. So, they are alive and preaching and dead at the same time. But there are more prophecies that you convert to 1260 years that come later. And those too, you make start and stop at the same time.

But... there are more problems. You make the year 661AD to be the mark or number of the beast, 666. And you do that by adding 5 years to 661, because you say Jesus wasn't born in the year "0". But you don't know exactly when Jesus was born, but you make it 5 years to fit your interpretation. But... let's move on.
By verse 11 it is introducing the Bab, Muhammad was the first Woe, the Bab is the 2nd Woe and Baha'u'llah I the 3rd Woe that came quickly.
There are more than 100 times the "Woes" are mentioned in the Hebrew Bible and the Christian NT. Why are these "Woes" people? People you call manifestations of God. Now during each "Woe" things happen, do they fit what happened during the life of that particular person? Here's what happens during the second "Woe". Which you claim is the Bab...

12 The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come.​
13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God. 14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of the mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard their number.​
17 The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. 18 A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. 19 The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury.​
20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.​
I do not need a start date CG
1260 minus 1260 equals year 0 in the Islamic calendar. Which is the year 622. That's your start date, which I doubt was the start date for any of those prophecies. And there's also a start date for the prophecies in Daniel. One of them might be the year that a decree went out to rebuild Jerusalem, but that's not the start date of the other one. That is the year the abomination of desolation was set up.

It's a nice try. But there's a lot of holes in your interpretation. You like it? You believe it? That's just great. All it shows to me is that Baha'is don't think for themselves but follow along with whatever their religion tells them is true.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Revelation Chapter 11 introduces us to Muhammad and Islam.
Rev 11:1 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.​
When was the "outer" court given to the "Gentiles"? From that date they will "trample" the holy city for 42 months, which you convert to 1260 lunar years.

Rev 11:3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”​
This date we know. You say it is year "0" to the year 1260 in the Islamic calendar. Which is 622 to 1844.

So, what are you going to do with the 42 months? Do you know when the Gentiles were given the outer court? Or do you even care? Because I know you can convert 42 months to be 1260 years, so will you make that start in the year "0" and end in the year 1260 also? And come up with some interpretation on how in the year 622 the Gentiles began to trample the holy city? Which I assume is Jerusalem. What city do Baha'is say it is?

Anyway, good luck Tony, because I doubt if you can explain any of this... other than say that it is all explained by Abdul Baha. And whatever he says is the absolute truth. And if he said it's true, then that settles it... it's true.
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
Revelation Chapter 11 introduces us to Muhammad and Islam.


By verse 2 it gives the 1260 year prophecy stated as 42 months (42 × 30 days = 1260 days = 1260 years, as in the Bible each day is appointed as a year in prophecy)

Then verse 3 says the Two Witnesses were given power to give prophecy for 1260 years. This was Muhammad and Ali.

By verse 7 the beast arises and this is the Umayyad caliphate who broke the Covernant of Muhammad and did not follow the appointed Successors Ali.

The dead bodies laying in the street represents the Umayyad caliphate Islam which was a faith of laws without the Spirit given by Muhammad, basically a dead faith. This Islam lasted until the year 1260, or 1844.

The 3 & 1/2 days is another way of offering the 1260 years. 3 & 1/2 days = 3 & 1/2 years = 42 months = 1260 days = 1260 years.

By verse 11 it is introducing the Bab, Muhammad was the first Woe, the Bab is the 2nd Woe and Baha'u'llah I the 3rd Woe that came quickly.

The 24 Elders are the Babs 19 letters of the living (Disciples) and 5 others.

Both Revelation 11 and 12 have been explained in detail by Abdul'baha. You can find those explanations in Some Answered Questions chapter 1, linked following.


Regards Tony
LOL it was a leading question . fact is you guys & gales don't have a clue . very little from the book Revelation can be taken literally . you need to look beneath the words to find the significance of what's said . Two Witnesses was a requirement of law to establish fact from fiction, if Two Witnesses do not agree no verdict would/could be given. you think its two people from mankind , no
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
This question cannot really be answered by a Christian. It's an unfair question. You cannot ask this question based on taking away all foundations in the theology of Christianity.
I believe according to Paul in I Cor 15, If we don't believe in the resurrection we are still dead in our sins and more miserable than all men. I can see that it would eliminate the hope of eternal life which would be very discouraging.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I believe according to Paul in I Cor 15, If we don't believe in the resurrection we are still dead in our sins and more miserable than all men. I can see that it would eliminate the hope of eternal life which would be very discouraging.
That's absolutely irrelevant to me brother.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
LOL it was a leading question . fact is you guys & gales don't have a clue . very little from the book Revelation can be taken literally . you need to look beneath the words to find the significance of what's said . Two Witnesses was a requirement of law to establish fact from fiction, if Two Witnesses do not agree no verdict would/could be given. you think its two people from mankind , no
I believe I never considered that they could be angels but that does remain a possibility. I doubt they are going to advertise who they are though.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
One of the prophecies in Daniel starts when the abomination of desolation takes place. William Miller starts counting the years with the rebuilding of Jerusalem. So, how did he and Baha'is justify doing that?

Then which of the six "I260" prophecies? As I've asked several times, how can they all start in 622AD and stop in 1844 when all of the events in the Bible start and stop at different times? Like the "Two Witnesses" preach and teach for I260 days/years and then are dead for 1260 days/years and Baha'i claims both those started with the Hegira in 622AD and ended with the declaration of the Bab in 1844.

What's troublesome is that it doesn't seem to matter to Baha'is. Is it like horseshoes when close enough still scores you some points? It makes me question just how much personal investigating Baha'is really do. Close enough and sounding good seems to have been enough to convince Baha'is that something is true. Then, once a person believes, all of it must be true, because your prophet, Baha'u'llah said so... Or the Bab said so.... Or Abdul Baha' said so... Or Shoghi Effendi said so.... And now the Universal House of Justice says so. So, Baha'is believe it.

But, I guess it's okay, all religions assume things and take them by faith and call them "absolutely" true.
Myself, I don't believe because of interpretation of prophecies any more. What ever logical problems they present the reality of the Revelation of Baha'u'llah stands for me.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
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