What is "virtuous" about accidental characteristics?
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What if we accepted each other's religion?
- Thread starter loverofhumanity
- Start date
Here is a more in depth explanation of what I mean.
When asked on one occasion: “What is a Bahá’í?” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá replied: “To be a Bahá’í simply means to love all the world; to love humanity and try to serve it; to work for universal peace and universal brotherhood.” On another occasion He defined a Bahá’í as “one endowed with all the perfections of man in activity.” In one of His London talks He said that a man may be a Bahá’í even if He has never heard the name of Bahá’u’lláh. He added:—
The man who lives the life according to the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh is already a Bahá’í. On the other hand, a man may call himself a Bahá’í for fifty years, and if he does not live the life he is not a Bahá’í. An ugly man may call himself handsome, but he deceives no one, and a black man may call himself white, yet he deceives no one, not even himself.
So it's not what we call ourselves but what we actually are in reality that defines us. Any good person may be religious and even a Baha'i without having even heard of the name. The reality is our actions and deeds not what we call ourselves.
Anything wrong with this? This is so called 'religious' but the new definition or religion redefined if you like.
“Be thou a summoner to love, and be thou kind to all the human race. Love thou the children of men and share in their sorrows. Be thou of those who foster peace. Offer thy friendship, be worthy of trust. Be thou a balm to every sore, be thou a medicine for every ill. Bind thou the souls together.”
“Know thou of a certainty that Love is the secret of God’s holy Dispensation, the manifestation of the All-Merciful, the fountain of spiritual outpourings. Love is heaven’s kindly light, the Holy Spirit’s eternal breath that vivifieth the human soul. Love is the cause of God’s revelation unto man, the vital bond inherent, in accordance with the divine creation, in the realities of things. Love is the one means that ensureth true felicity both in this world and the next. Love is the light that guideth in darkness, the living link that uniteth God with man, that assureth the progress of every illumined soul. Love is the most great law that ruleth this mighty and heavenly cycle, the unique power that bindeth together the divers elements of this material world, the supreme magnetic force that directeth the movements of the spheres in the celestial realms. Love revealeth with unfailing and limitless power the mysteries latent in the universe. Love is the spirit of life unto the adorned body of mankind, the establisher of true civilization in this mortal world, and the shedder of imperishable glory upon every high-aiming race and nation.” 106
“Be thou a summoner to love, and be thou kind to all the human race. Love thou the children of men and share in their sorrows. Be thou of those who foster peace. Offer thy friendship, be worthy of trust. Be thou a balm to every sore, be thou a medicine for every ill. Bind thou the souls together.”
“Know thou of a certainty that Love is the secret of God’s holy Dispensation, the manifestation of the All-Merciful, the fountain of spiritual outpourings. Love is heaven’s kindly light, the Holy Spirit’s eternal breath that vivifieth the human soul. Love is the cause of God’s revelation unto man, the vital bond inherent, in accordance with the divine creation, in the realities of things. Love is the one means that ensureth true felicity both in this world and the next. Love is the light that guideth in darkness, the living link that uniteth God with man, that assureth the progress of every illumined soul. Love is the most great law that ruleth this mighty and heavenly cycle, the unique power that bindeth together the divers elements of this material world, the supreme magnetic force that directeth the movements of the spheres in the celestial realms. Love revealeth with unfailing and limitless power the mysteries latent in the universe. Love is the spirit of life unto the adorned body of mankind, the establisher of true civilization in this mortal world, and the shedder of imperishable glory upon every high-aiming race and nation.” 106
As another Bahá’í, @loverofhumanity , I must say that our acceptance of the validity of each others’ religions is IMPERATIVE for the building of world peace! Although, I disagree somewhat on what such acceptance would entail:
I propose that we all study each others’ Sacred Writings, worship with one another, discuss, ask respectful questions, even debating (peaceably), and seek to understand and respect those differences between them while rejoicing in the commonalities which can be found. Of course, as you know, we Bahá’ís are not forbidden from doing this whatsoever and are, in fact, encouraged to do so!
I propose that we all study each others’ Sacred Writings, worship with one another, discuss, ask respectful questions, even debating (peaceably), and seek to understand and respect those differences between them while rejoicing in the commonalities which can be found. Of course, as you know, we Bahá’ís are not forbidden from doing this whatsoever and are, in fact, encouraged to do so!
I think what I'm trying to say is if you separate love from religion it is no longer religion but man made dogma.
So you recognize all good people as religious? That's mighty white of you.
No. You don't get to claim people who don't want anything to do with you. The only people who are Baha'i are people who have chosen to be Baha'i. It's disrespectful - and bigoted, frankly - to claim all good people in the world as members of your religion.
Yes, there's something wrong with it.
If your faith motivates you to love, good for you. But this doesn't mean that love is an expression of faith for everyone.
My volunteer work is motivated in large part by the acknowledgement that I don't believe in any god or other supernatural creature that's going to swoop down and make things better. If you can call all love "religion", can I call all volunteerism "godlessness"? I think I could make a better case for that than you could for your position.
Its the essence that matters not the outward form.So you recognize all good people as religious? That's mighty white of you.
No. You don't get to claim people who don't want anything to do with you. The only people who are Baha'i are people who have chosen to be Baha'i. It's disrespectful - and bigoted, frankly - to claim all good people in the world as members of your religion.
There are many forms love takes. Serving humanity is one of them also.
You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. I'm arguing that the essence of love is NOT religious.
You just keep on asserting the same thing over and over as if you think I don't understand the point you're making. I do understand it; I just disagree with it.
To help you understand my point of view, consider what you just wrote but with two changes:
- "patriotic" for "religious"
- "American" for "Baha'i"
... plus related changes so that it still makes sense with the swap:
When asked on one occasion: “What is an American?” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá replied: “To be an Amwrican simply means to love all the world; to love humanity and try to serve it; to work for universal peace and universal brotherhood.” On another occasion He defined an American as “one endowed with all the perfections of man in activity.” In one of His London talks He said that a man may be an American even if He has never set foot in the United States. He added:—
The man who lives the life according to the American Dream is already an American. On the other hand, a man may call himself an American for fifty years, and if he does not live the life he is not an American. An ugly man may call himself handsome, but he deceives no one, and a black man may call himself white, yet he deceives no one, not even himself.
So it's not what we call ourselves but what we actually are in reality that defines us. Any good person may be patriotic and even an American without having even heard of the name. The reality is our actions and deeds not what we call ourselves.
Saying that all love is an expression of love of God is just as nonsensical as saying that it's an expression of love of country.
Saying that when an atheist or Pagan does good deed he's being "Baha'i" is just as offensive and chauvinistic as saying that a Korean or Nigerian Nobel Peace Prize winner was being "American" when they did their work.
Does this make sense to you? Do you understand my perspective?
So we're all godless, then?
All its saying is that it doesn't matter what we call ourselves if we don't practice what we preach. Quite simple message. Whether American or Baha'i it doesn't matter. Our deeds are what's important.
If what we call ourselves doesn't matter, why is it so important to you to call non-religious people "religious" and people of other religions "Baha'i"?
What do you mean by godless? I would call a destructive person, a killer or terrorist godless but not an atheist serving humanity. It all depends on ones own definitions of these things. We all have our own definitions.
To emphasise deeds over words. That calling ourselves good doesn't make us good. Our deeds do.
By "godless", I'm talking about not relying on God to bring good into the world and instead taking action ourselves to make it happen. You know: charity. By "godless", I mean "charitable in the sense of real-world actions."
I'm talking about the same thing. Good deeds. Good deeds are good deeds. All good deeds are acceptable and praiseworthy. Can we really say one person's good deeds are greater than another's?
You think calling non-Baha'is "Baha'i" emphasizes deeds over words?
No. The message was about not being hypocritical.